Our Shared Shelf discussion

As someone who came of age during the 90s Riot Grrrl wave of feminism I've been having these discussions for a while. Recently, however, I've found myself having to explain what feminism means, the history of the movement, and all sorts of things to people who get angry and say "I'm not a feminist! Feminists are (blank)!"

There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there. Some of it is young people only just starting to explore their roles in a larger society. Others live in places where equality has not yet flourished. But the most disturbing is those adults who still don't understand the basic meaning of the word.

Being a writer I've decided to write an article covering on the basics. A way of passing on knowledge from my generation to the next.

In the piece I'm going to cover a couple of the most common arguments people get when they declare themselves feminists. My question to you members of the Shared Shelf... Is there anything specific you'd like me to include? What is the most common misunderstanding you run into?

Let me know what you'd like to see included!

Hi Kat,

I'm interested in your discussion. I'm also a writer, and have also seen the ebb and flow of the feminist conversation.

I grew up in an activist family in the 1970s. By the time I was in my 20s in the late 1980s, I (naively) thought we'd gained equality - at least in the western world. The conversation seemed to die down before the third wave in the 1990s.

In 2007, my husband and I had to take a marriage prep course in order to get married in a tiny little church in the town near to our cottage in northern Ontario. The minister who led the course was also a psychologist, and quite progressive. He gave an important lecture on domestic abuse and what to look for, which he prefaced with the question, "How many of you are feminists?" Of the 25 couples in attendance, I was the only one to put up my hand.

Clearly, we still need to discuss.

One common idea where I come from is that women can be strong and fierce, but that that strength stems from protection instincts as mother or as wife. When a woman's child is provoked for instance, her ability to somehow call up an almost supernatural aggression in the child's defense is considered noble. As if possessed, because under no other circumstances could she 'even hurt a fly'. Likewise, woman as strong and grounded supporter of man is a pretty common idea. Cool! But such ideas position this strength as something that women can wield only in defense of others (not in defense of themselves) and also as lying less in the woman herself and more in the circumstance at play. An idea of "tapping into" strength on occasion rather than truly embodying it. So that these ideas, in the act of extolling the powers of woman, displace her power.
The main issue related to this that I run up against when someone comes to understand that I am a feminist flows kinda like this: I am a feminist. Part of that is claiming power for and over myself. I am declaring myself strong. That must mean I care about others less, especially men and children. I must be selfish, insensitive and uncaring. I must be an unloving woman.
NO! No these concepts, they do not follow, not really. But I can see the logic based on preexisting ideas. Unfortunately within a second such connections and associations are formulated in some people's minds.
I don't know how to challenge it aside from just being myself over time with someone.

Excellent point, Brunvatne.

I don't have an answer other than to agree with your commitment to be oneself. Perhaps in pointing it out, just as you have here, people's thinking will start to change. There is, I think, a growing understanding that one has to put the oxygen mask on oneself first. Only then can we make a difference for others.

Thanks for the inquiry!

This might be just my own perception, but part of the problem is that every feminist needs to start the conversation with some sort of apology or explanation.

The reason is simple. Often any conversation around equality is immediately faced with some of the following responses:

Eyerolls
Sighs
"Here we go again..."
"Can we talk about more important topics?"
"Women are equal here, look at other countries where they are not."
"Look, at Angela Merkel who leads a country (... or Hillary Clinton, or...)."
"Why do you want to discriminate men?"
"I have never seen any discrimination."
"You are too oversensitive"
"Is it this time of the month again?"

This immediately puts any feminist in a defensive position. This is typically not to an advantage for any conversation.

For as long there is no alignment on the problem statement, there will be no solution. I just look at the arguments here in these forums. A lot of the behavior and conversational fog bombs are used here, too.

The hard part is aligning the various opinions and experiences. There are the 20somethings who have a different experience than the 40somethings. There are the various cultural influences that define the gender gap still differently. There are the different hopes and dreams of what needs to be done. There are groups who want to go topless. For others uncovering a face would be provocative enough for now.

I think I am positively surprised there are so many women and men here interested in the topic. This is a first step.

Two of the biggest misconceptions about feminism is that (1) feminists hate men or want to emasculate them. I think the role of feminism is to help all sexes break out of stereotypes, preconceived expectations. Emily Watson's UN speech went a long way towards reframing this conversation. (2) Another unfortunate association has been feminism and abortion with the implication that feminists are "child-killers." Ann Roiphe considers this point in her book FRUITFUL. It's a touchy subject, no doubt. She thought the conversation should be about whether or not the child was wanted or not. I'm thinking if we could move feminism into a movement whereby we empower ourselves, we empower those around us. Abortion is not usually a decision made in isolation. Often the wellbeing of another child or children weighs in the balance.

I think a lot of the problem with feminist discussion stems from the fact that it isn't always the accessible topic we wish it could be. Many people don't have the ability to properly defend what feminism is and why they are a feminist to someone with a different or more academic style who is arguing against it.
I would love to hear thoughts on ways to improve this kind of communication to become more inclusive :)

Lucinda wrote: "I think a lot of the problem with feminist discussion stems from the fact that it isn't always the accessible topic we wish it could be. Many people don't have the ability to properly defend what feminism is and why they are a feminist to someone with a different or more academic style who is arguing against it.
I would love to hear thoughts on ways to improve this kind of communication to become more inclusive :)"

I wrote somewhere else in this group that we would need comments from people well-versed in sociology and women's studies in regards to good, credible sources. I know the scientific and medical field, but that doesn't solve things this time, so I'm at a loss currently. It would also be helpful if such people would make statistics from studies accessible to this group, because most of us seem to be laymen.

As for arguing, I think it is healthy to examine one's style of discussing, because there really need to be two different types, the sort of meandering kind where you are okay with personal experiences, emotions, etc., and the other sort where cold hard facts are presented and acknowledged. Both styles are needed, though, and the softer type isn't to be belittled in any way.

In regards to having or not having the ability to discuss in a more academic manner, nobody was born with the skill, but everyone has to go through the same process, so it really is a question of wanting to improve or not. The first step, I think, is to not just blurt things out, but think what one actually wants to achieve, what one truly thinks and feels about a certain topic.

The final, and in my humble opinion most important part, is to be prepared to question one's current ideas. Online, I see a lot of contradictory comments regardless of theme, and when pointing it out, get ignored completely. That usually happens due to reluctancy to admit that one can be wrong about something, or one could improve in one's reasoning.

One example is veganism, which I'm currently working on sorting out my feelings around, and I'm no monster, yet I feel fine eating animals kept in horrible conditions (or do I? I seriously don't know anymore), so the logical next step is to conclude I am in fact a monster. What do I do about it? What wins, this or that opinion, my convenience or consistent actions? What should I do to keep my conscience clean, and to stay consistent in thoughts and actions? Is a compromise even possible?

Ethical discussions in particular are never easy, but when one finds a logical path that works, it's easier to defend even highly unpopular views. In this group, an example of that would be the thread on women who rape and a child growing as a result, but I'd go against everything I believe in, if I would ignore my conscience, and while it might not be an option ever to force-abort a child created under such circumstances, at least I've stood by my opinion in public.

Reluctance to at least scrutinise opinions, if not ending up changing them, is the first step in causing a debate to come to a halt, because change usually comes with new opinions and at times it means we are the ones in need of change.

P.S. One more thing to consider, and this is in no way me being mean now, is to work on one's vocabulary and grammar. It's easier to take laymen like myself seriously, if the former are on at least an acceptable level. A little example meant in kindness only:
1 woman, 2 women
1 man, 2 men
I find it a bit difficult to keep reading in earnest when this basic thing goes wrong. Whether we like it or not, our writing will also affect how the reader interprets our ideas, in particular on Goodreads.

I think Aglaea is right.
I, myself, see too much belittling of experiences and opinion.

And yes, one does not always need to be right at all times. We need to be able to question our own thoughts and opinions, and listen to other people's input or feedback. I am somewhat frustrated with the way we as a society are engaging in debates and argumentation, essentially taking the position that everyone else is always at fault, but only ones own ideology is right.

And to the veganism topic... It is not black and white like anything else. You can eat animal products if the animals are humanely raised. I have been doing this for a few years. It is expensive, but I do not compromise. I choose not to eat meat if I do not know the origin of the product. I do the same for all other food items, too. Sustainable farming and agriculture is very important to me also for vegetables, fruit, and grains. That is why I stopped eating almonds from California. And most grain products. And most prepackaged food. Even though I like those, but I cannot justify monoagriculture, overuse of water, and compromise with regards to animal well-being.

I handle feminism the same way. It is not black and white. Choices and opinions are different for each woman. However, as a woman I need to understand how my personal choices may affect others. For example if I decided to wear a burka, am I helping women or is this an action just for myself? Can I live with the consequences if my actions mean a negative outcome for others?

Ines wrote: "I, myself, see too much belittling of experiences and opinion."

Yes. On the other hand, at times people are way too sensitive around differing opinions. When someone thinks differently about a particular topic, it doesn't mean that they are rude or they attack you personally. Challenging opinions through asking questions etc. also doesn't automatically mean belittling.

I should like to think we can be friends even when agreeing on some topics, but disagreeing on others, and there's great power in agreeing to disagree. One can have huge respect for another even when of different opinions.

Aglaea, your comment about how our writing affects how our ideas are interpreted is an example of the point I was trying to make. In an article such as Kat is preparing to write, an academic style and assumption that the reader knows enough about this style is a wise choice. However, in an open discourse such as goodreads, I wouldn't want anyone to feel as though their ideas were less valid or less appreciated because their grammar or spelling wasn't perfect. I wouldn't want anyone, for example a teenager, or someone who has English as their second language, or simply someone who struggles with grammar and spelling to feel as though they can't be included in feminist discussion.
When I wrote the post, I was thinking more about exclusive language used in feminist discussions which often quickly become academic- which I do think is important, but just has a time and a place- but writing style is another factor in exclusivity in feminist discussion.
I do most definitely agree with your point about questioning our own ideas though, and sites such as this are the perfect place for people to come with an open mind and learn about different ways of thinking.

Lucinda wrote: "Aglaea, your comment about how our writing affects how our ideas are interpreted is an example of the point I was trying to make. In an article such as Kat is preparing to write, an academic style ..."

I only saw your post to me now, sorry.

In regards to English, it is our personal business card whether we like it or not. I learned English as a fourth language starting in my mid-teens, but have worked very hard to master it. I realise not everyone has it as easy with languages, but with that said, it still will influence how people perceive our thinking.

Nobody was born Mozart, but everyone starts from scratch, and it simply is my personal opinion that in a global society nothing bad will ever come from improving one's English, but others will on the contrary admire us for our skill to be precise in how we use it to convey our thoughts.

It wasn't my intention to push anyone away, but to encourage people to boldly face what they don't master yet. I absolutely suck at punctuation, if I may be honest about my own shortcomings. As for people having real problems with spelling, obviously I'm not a total shithead, but was mainly talking about people who mix up their and they're out of laziness or similar. Like I said, English isn't my first language, but many foreigners make more efforts with better results than native speakers. Anyway, my two cents.