Queereaders discussion

Over in the discussion on Catcher in the Rye an interesting point was raised about the possibility of reading the Glass sons as gay, as well as discussion about ambiguity and subtext in general. I've always been fascinated by the long tradition of queer folk identifying characters in art (in books, film, or otherwise) and claiming them for their own.

So I'm curious, what characters have you had this experience with? Ones that weren't specifically cited as queer/LGBTQ but you were nonetheless convinced--or perhaps even just hoped--was family?

[My apologies if this topic has been discussed here before--I did a quick search but I couldn't find anything.]

The first that came to mind for me as Nat in Alcott's Little Men. In my review I touch upon my complete childhood identification with the character, and though I don't go as far as explicitly "outing" him as the archetypal proto-queer boy, I allude to the fact that "Alcott was implying an awful lot when writing that Mr. Bhaer considered Nat 'his 'daughter,'' finding him 'as docile and affectionate as a girl.'" Of course I didn't recognize it in such terms as a kid, but it's so obvious now returning to the book as an adult (which I do often).

This is further underlined in the subsequent sequel Jo's Boys, where Nat's heterosexual courtships are disastrous, and he flails about pitifully at life after leaving for Europe to study music. I just want to shake him and say "just find a good guy and settle down in Europe and everything will be okay!"

As Alcott very much based her characters on people she actually knew, I've always wondered who the real-life equivalent of Nat was, and if he was in fact gay. Too many little details--whether inadvertent or intended--seem so, SO telling.

This is a great topic Jesse, and I don't think we have another thread for it. Thanks for posting!

One book that comes to mind for me is A Separate Peace. Nothing is ever very explicit, but I definitely feel an strong undercurrent of same sex attraction underlying the action in the book.

Another one (and this one is lower brow), but as a kid I found a lot to relate to in the X-Men comics mutant storylines. All the themes of difference and not being accepted in the larger culture.

I'm sure there are other cases more in line with what you're asking for, but I can't think of them at this exact moment.

John Singer in that Carson McCullers novel. the title escapes my mind right now.
I just finished three classes back to back so I can not remember anything right now.

I was strangely obsessed with P.G. Wodehouse as a young reader (elementary school), and I think in part it was because I related to the perennial bachelor Bertie Wooster, who always seemed to enjoy the company of his male buddies than women.

That may have been a coded portrayal by Wodehouse, and a reflection of the author's own sensibilities. I just did a little online research to refresh my memory on whether or not Wodehouse was gay. It seems he's believed to have been asexual more than homosexual. Of course, Jeeves also ticks off some homosexual boxes.

I thought of Sherlock Holmes as asexual before I even knew the word. (I used to think of him as aromantic as well, but all the subtext in the Downey films has made me reconsider that. :P)

Granted, it's hard to say anything "for certain" about Holmes since Doyle didn't care about continuity at all, the stories were mainly from Watson's perspective, and Watson straight-up admits he fudged the truth in some cases. Still, Holmes is one of the few heroes I can think of who doesn't end up in a relationship at any point. That's very refreshing for me, and I choose to interpret that as meaning Holmes takes no interest in that sort of thing.

There's also a semi-popular theory that Holmes is a trans man, and while I haven't accepted that as my personal headcanon, I do like to think about it occasionally.

Eileen wrote: "I thought of Sherlock Holmes as asexual before I even knew the word. (I used to think of him as aromantic as well, but all the subtext in the Downey films has made me reconsider that. :P)

Granted,..."

Me too Eileen! :)

What a pleasure to come back from a trip--and some time away from the internet--and read through these responses. Lots of fascinating replies!

Greg wrote: "One book that comes to mind for me is A Separate Peace. Nothing is ever very explicit, but I definitely feel an strong undercurrent of same sex attraction underlying the action in the book."

Funny, this is one that I have to admit I somehow missed when I read it in high school, and when I came across that interpretation later it was such an "oh duh, of course!" moment. I've always intended to return to it again, but have yet to do so.

I would imagine that most people would have "lowbrow" (I distinction I don't really make) examples than not--movies, comic books, TV shows, etc, etc.

I have to admit that I've yet to take on either Hesse or Wodehouse though I've always meant to, the latter in particular.

What I do know of the character of Jeeves though, he seems to fall into that tradition of the elegantly effete manservant type, which I associate with the characters Franklin Pangborn and Edward Everett Horton played in 1930's films.

Eileen wrote: "There's also a semi-popular theory that Holmes is a trans man...

Whoa... this is making my head spin a bit! Have never come across this--I think it's time to head over to Google and fall down an internet wormhole for a while!

Jesse wrote: "I have to admit that I've yet to take on either Hesse or Wodehouse though I've always meant to, the latter in particular.

What I do know of the character of Jeeves though, he seems to fall into t..."

Do it! Wodehouse's character of Bertie Wooster is this sort of boozy, wealthy ambler who is always running away from being set up for marriage by his imperious grandmother (or mother? sorry it's been a long time). Somehow that all appealed to me in grade school. :)

Andrew wrote: "Do it! Wodehouse's character of Bertie Wooster is this sort of boozy, wealthy ambler who is always running away from being set up for marriage by his imperious grandmother (or mother? sorry it's been a long time). Somehow that all appealed to me in grade school. :) "

Onto the ever-expanding "to read" list it goes! I have such commitment issues when it comes to my literature--I think the extent of the series has always scared me of. :)

Oh, I was reminded of another one this morning: the character of brash, tomboyish George Fayne from the Nancy Drew series. Even as a kid I could the occasional half-hearted attempt to feminize her (oh, but she does love shopping! no really, she does!) was extremely suspicious.

My fantasy is that George escaped from WASPy clutches of River Heights, established herself as a Greenwich Village beatnik type and was often spotted chain smoking in lesbian bars while scrawling notes for the pulp novels she published under a pseudonym, and occasionally in the company of young Susan Sontag (whom she had a brief affair with). Haha

Jesse wrote: Whoa... this is making my head spin a bit! Have never come across this--I think it's time to head over to Google and..."

Here is a cute little comic to get you started. :)

http://ghostbees.tumblr.com/post/1350...

Jesse wrote: "Andrew wrote: "Do it! Wodehouse's character of Bertie Wooster is this sort of boozy, wealthy ambler who is always running away from being set up for marriage by his imperious grandmother (or mother..."

Jesse and Andrew, I find the Jeeves and Wooster books highly amusing. They're very enjoyable and light. I've read several. Wooster is such a lovable idiot!

Eileen wrote: "I thought of Sherlock Holmes as asexual before I even knew the word. (I used to think of him as aromantic as well, but all the subtext in the Downey films has made me reconsider that. :P) ..."

Hrm, could be. I still one collection of stories to read, but I always thought of Holmes as gay. Since the stories were written from Watson's POV, who married twice, he would have undoubtedly fudged things a bit to blur the more "scandalous" aspects, those less socially acceptable, of his dear friend's personal habits. his unreliability as a narrator clearly left me thinking there was more to Holmes than Watson was willing telling us.

I'm also firmly behind the belief that Bilbo Baggins and Frodo Baggins are gay. I wrote my thesis paper for my degree in English on this subject. There are an enormous number of small clues sprinkled through the descriptions that when taken from the cultural context of when they were written and eras of which Tolkien grew up, imply there was more than just oddity to Bilbo's "queer" habits and Frodo took after his uncle in more ways than he did not. On the other hand I don't think Samwise was even bisexual, and I don't support the notion that Frodo and Sam and anything else going on other than that long walk to Mount Doom. This is were the social hierarchy of British culture and the relationships of classes and how men-in-the-trenches-of-warfare comes into the argument.
When I first read the books in the late 70s, I was so drawn to both Bilbo and Frodo not just because of the subtext of their sexuality, but also that it was the very things that made them different (read queer) from other hobbits was also what made them heroic and the best candidates for their respective quests and endeavors.

Rick, most interesting about Bilbo and Frodo. Although I thought more woozily about the matter, I can see it, have seen it; and loving Frodo as I do, I like it. Sentiment aside, I acknowledge what you say of Sam is most likely. Great thesis topic!!!!!!! Is there any possibility (I don't even know why I ask this) that Tolkien might have had a real life bachelor/s in mind as more than a 'type'? Did you find he wrote this way quite consciously; did he ever express views?

Bryn, unfortunately I did not find anything that I felt was usable as reliable evidence from Tolkien to support the queer theory approach. All the subtext remains just that, subtext. But from a 15 year-old queer boy's point of view it left an indesputible impression. I attempted, not as successfully as I would have liked, to weave that personal experience with an analysis of the subtext viewed through the lens of coded language from the cultural perspective of Tolkien's era and class. His repetitive use of "queer" in describing Bilbo in The Hobbit as well of the clearly acknowledged evidence that Bilbo, and later Frodo, were not "normal" examples of hobbits even before they left on their respective journeys is indisputable that Tolkien indented them to be seen and regarded as very unusual hobbits. Reading that intention to mean they were queer is virtually impossible to prove, but it does explain an enormous amount of subtextual innuendo and their cultural eccentrices both befor the quests and after, including why neither expressed any desire to ever marry. Compare this to the depiction of the other three principal hobbits, Samwise, Merry & Pippin, who do all get married. Samwise is clearly depicted having yearning thoughts of Rose during his trek with Frodo into Mordor; while Frodo thinks of Samwise, Bilbo, Gandalf, the Fellowship, the mission and the consequences of failure. On one hand this illustrates Tolkien's British class upbringing, and can certinly be read as justification for the higher values attributed to the upper classes; but that also completely contradicts the entire point and depictions of the hobbits as a whole being earthy and simple folk - something clearly sets Frodo & Bilbo apart and it is not simply class, breeding, education or wealth.

I could rumply on and on about this. ;)
Honestly I think I could have written a whole book on the subject, and not just the 25 page thesis, but I didn't have the time or the motivation at the time - I just wanted to get it done. ;)

The relationship between Frodo & Sam is tender and touching. I never quite caught onto what you're saying Rick, though I do find it interesting! I like what you say! I was extremely moved by the tenderness in the relationship between Frodo & Sam in the books and the movie.

Rick wrote: Hrm, could be. I still one collection of stories to read, but I always thought of Holmes as gay.

Oh it's entirely possible Holmes was gay. He fits into multiple contemporary stereotypes surrounding homosexuality. He's a clean-shaven bachelor living a "bohemian" lifestyle in central London--an image that was associated with homosexuality even before the Wilde trials. Plus he HATED blackmailers. While nobody likes a blackmailer, they were the particular bane of Victorian homosexuals, who were prime targets for blackmailers.

Funnily enough, Watson also fits into some contemporary stereotypes. In A Study in Scarlet, he mentions staying in a Strand hotel in the West End. Hotels in this area were common meeting places for men seeking sex with men. Also, soldiers (and former soldiers) were so poorly paid that they often ended up as prostitutes, hanging out in parks at night in the hopes of picking up a wealthy gentleman.

Obviously, like with your fascinating theories about the Bagginses, this is all circumstantial evidence. But putting Holmes and Watson back into their original historical context was quite eye opening for me.

As you can see, I may possibly have thought too much about this. :) Personally I tend to read Holmes as homoromantic asexual, but in any event, I completely agree that Watson fudged some details about his "intimate friend." Half the fun is trying to figure out just what secrets they were keeping.

Greg wrote: "The relationship between Frodo & Sam is tender and touching. I never quite caught onto what you're saying Rick, though I do find it interesting! I like what you say! I was extremely moved by the tenderness in the relationship between Frodo & Sam in the books and the movie."

I completely agree with you Greg. The relationship between Frodo & Sam is precisely why Frodo is able to complete his impossible mission. He couldn't have done it without Sam's support, not only physically, but emotionally and spiritually. The problem that I have is when people this that closeness as only being explainable by sexual attraction. Tolkien's experiences from WWI are a direct inspiration for the companionship between men in a very impossible situation. This transcends class and race and any other perceived hierarchical distinctions and Tolkien did an amazing job bringing that across. Unfortunately, a society as homophobic as contemporary America has no shared experience to understand that, so the relationship is viewed in the only context available. Another clear example of how the relationship is misinterpreted is in how the film substitutes Mister for Master Frodo. This further weakens the strength of their companionship by making them closer to equals and thus the class gulf that their intimacy transcends is lost on American audiences. So, for me, the relationship betwen Frodo and Sam is very homoerotic, but not so much homosexual. While Frodo may have sexual feelings for Sam, I don't see those feelings from Sam for Frodo. The films make this extremely explicit from the very start with Sam's clear interest in Rose. Sam is depicted as an example of typical hobbit attitudes and cultural beliefs. Frodo, like his uncle Bilbo, is nothing like the typical hobbit. On one level this can just be read as an issue of class, but that doesn't really address the number of times that Tolkien specifically describes Bilbo as being so unusual and queer for for a hobbit in the openings chapters of the book. I wish I had access to my notes (or the paper - alas both are locked up in a frozen laptop) as one researcher went through and counted the number of times Tolkien uses queer to describe Bilbo (and it is a surprisingly high number of times) over just a few chapters.
Also to clarify, I'm not saying I think Bilbo and Frodo had a sexual relationship, far from it. I think, as Tolkien states, Biblo saw himself as a young hobbit in Frodo and knew what sort of difficulties the youngster would face in the conservative environs of the Shire, so he took him in. This easily reads as an older experienced gay man taking a younger man under his wing as a protégée and teaching him the art of surviving in a potentially inhospitable world. I don't see this as sexual instruction, so much as cultural, or perhaps subcultural, instruction. This is also the method that the behaviors of tradition are passed on from older members of a subculture to a younger generation.
The more I dug I to the cultural aspects, the more obvious it seemed to become. But it is entirely a subtextual reading. None of it is explicit and it only works implicitly if the reader is actually looking for the clues anyway.

Eileen wrote: "... Personally I tend to read Holmes as homoromantic asexual, but in any event, I completely agree that Watson fudged some details about his "intimate friend." Half the fun is trying to figure out just what secrets they were keeping."

I can totally see him as homoromantic asexual, that does work. But I'm still a firm believer that he was as queer as wearing three hats. ;) And I completely agree with the notion of how fun it is to try and figure out what secrets are being kept. ;)
Now, all this talk about Holmes & Watson is making me want to dig out that last collection, The Case Book of Sherlock Holmes, that I haven't read and finally get to it. ;)

On the LoR films: pity to lose 'master' (I don't like 'mister'). Still, I thought they brought out the friendship; I think of those lingering loving eye-glances when Frodo wakes up alive and greets his comrades. The long lovingness of the look between them. Satisfies me.

Oh and I've remembered: there's a gorgeous moment in the dvd commentary when Ian McKellen tells that 'as a gay man' he explained to the makers a certain hand-clasp in the book must not be missed out; he says they didn't see the importance and weren't going to have it. They agreed with him and left in the hand-clasp. -- That's Sam, when Frodo wakes up in Elrond's house.

Bryn wrote: "On the LoR films: pity to lose 'master' (I don't like 'mister'). Still, I thought they brought out the friendship; I think of those lingering loving eye-glances when Frodo wakes up alive and greets..."

Oh, I agree completely. I LOVE the movies. But I also see a lot of faults and cultural translations that bother me.
The first film in each trilogy is gorgeously realized and brilliantly adapted. Almost faultless.
The second film in each trilogy is the weakest and are both disappointing in part because of how set the standard was set with the opening chapter.
The third film in each trilogy falls somewhere between the first & second films; they're better than the second films, but they don't live up to the promise of the first films.

Bryn wrote: "Oh and I've remembered: there's a gorgeous moment in the dvd commentary when Ian McKellen tells that 'as a gay man' he explained to the makers a certain hand-clasp in the book must not be missed ou..."

Dont even get me started on Sir Ian McKellan. I'd happily have his babies were it physically possible.
Yep, he knew exactly what he was talking about.

Jesse wrote: "Oh, I was reminded of another one this morning: the character of brash, tomboyish George Fayne from the Nancy Drew series. Even as a kid I could the occasional half-hearted attempt to feminize her ..."

I never read any of either the Nancy Drew or the Hardy Boys series. But have you heard of the books by Mabel Maney: A Ghost in the Closet: A Hardly Boys Mystery, The Case of the Not-So-Nice Nurse & The Case of the Good-for-Nothing Girlfriend?

I wouldn't go that far myself, Rick, but I do adore Sir Ian.

Agree about the films; although I have not managed to see the Hobbitses 2-3. Great to have them but 'cultural translation' issues expresses it well.

Rambling Reader wrote: "John Singer in that Carson McCullers novel. ..."

Speaking of Carson McCullers, the character Frankie from The Member of the Wedding seemed to be lesbian. She was only 12, but there seemed to be a lot of that vibe coming off the character.

Andrew wrote: "I was strangely obsessed with P.G. Wodehouse as a young reader (elementary school), and I think in part it was because I related to the perennial bachelor Bertie Wooster, who always seemed to enjoy..."

I haven't read any Wodehouse yet. I'd like to though.
Too many books, too little time. ;)

Jesse wrote: "The first that came to mind for me as Nat in Alcott's Little Men. In my review I touch upon my complete childhood identification with the character, and though I don't go as far as ex..."

Based on your review - I really want to read this book now. ;)

Bernie wrote: "ou have made me curious about the number of times the word queer is used in the books. The thing I always experience is the way it jumps out at me. I did a search for queer on my PDFs of the following Tolkien books and here are my results: ..."

Those look about right. I thought Hobbit was a bit higher, but then I was also looking at words like Odd, Unusual or Different. Most of those usages though occur in the opening chapters when Bilbo is being characterized and described.
It's also important to not forget that when The Hobbit was being written, the use of queer as a descriptive term for homosexual was not widely used as it is today. It definitely did not have the same connotations as it does in the late 70s (when I first read the books) or today.
Tolkien's intent seems to be to inform the reader of how different Bilbo & Frodo were from the typical hobbit and tis was why they were so adventurous. What I'm digging into is the why were they different. They were different because they went off and had adventures, but that's not telling why they were different before they had these adventures. For me that's were the real question lies. What made Bilbo & Frodo so restless, so needful to find things in the world that they couldn't find in their own communities? Tolkien may have intended it to be simply wanderlust, but that doesn't explain in the slightest why Bilbo & Frodo never married. Sam, Merry & Pippin never would have left the Shire without Frodo, and they went through similarly horrific experiences, but they were all returned and married and had families. Sam even carried the ring, certainly it was only for a short time, but he still returned and married Rose. Tolkien makes it clear the Bilbo & Frodo were different from other hobbits even before the Ring enters their lives, so it's not just the Ring and their adventures that makes them different, they were already different and that is what made them the best, perhaps only, choice for their respective quests.

Rick wrote: Now, all this talk about Holmes & Watson is making me want to dig out that last collection, The Case Book of Sherlock Holmes, that I haven't read and finally get to it. ;)


I think you'll like most of the stories in there, especially The Three Garridebs, which features a scene that I've seen people pointing to as the gayest in the whole series. :)

Also you're making me want to take another shot at watching the Lord of the Rings. Last time I tried, Netflix kept sending me a broken disc.

Bryn wrote: "On the LoR films: pity to lose 'master' (I don't like 'mister'). Still, I thought they brought out the friendship; I think of those lingering loving eye-glances when Frodo wakes up alive and greets..."

I completely agree Bryn - so much tenderness in the movie between friends, even down to the point where Aragorn kisses Boromir's forehead. That was not sexual either, but it was very tender and homoerotic. I love that the characters weren't afraid to express the strength of their feelings of friendship. Not the typical masculine back thumping but something real. Partly it's the quality of the actors and actresses they utilized. They were all able to enter the characters with humility and to let them come alive. Despite all the horrors that befall them, there's an endearing openness about the performances.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I'd missed the change from master to mister, but I like what you say about class differences. Such an important distinction!! - I can only think the filmmakers worried American audiences would misunderstand the 'master' and went for something more culturally neutral. In the same way that the American publishers changed the title of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, fearing that Americans wouldn't get the alchemical reference. I wish publishers wouldn't do that!! They should preserve the cultural differences rather than levelling them ... so much more interesting that way!

Rick, I love your idea of Frodo as gay. I can really see that as a possibility, and both the books & movies leave that possibility quite open as you say.

Rick wrote: "Bryn wrote: "Oh and I've remembered: there's a gorgeous moment in the dvd commentary when Ian McKellen tells that 'as a gay man' he explained to the makers a certain hand-clasp in the book must not..."

How wonderful Rick and Bryn! Ian McKellen is fabulous! :)

I read somewhere that the forehead kiss wasn't in the original script either. Viggo added it.

Jesse wrote: "Eileen wrote: "There's also a semi-popular theory that Holmes is a trans man...

Whoa... this is making my head spin a bit! Have never come across this--I think it's time to head over to Google and..."

I know, It never crossed my mind but, I can see it.

Bernie wrote: "How about ... Ishmael and Queequeg in Moby Dick?"

Totally. Melville had fun with them.

Bryn wrote: "Bernie wrote: "How about ... Ishmael and Queequeg in Moby Dick?"

Totally. Melville had fun with them."

I haven't read it yet, but isn't Billy Budd, Sailor supposed to gay as well? Not obviously, but that is the author's intended meaning. That-which-can-not-be-mentioned and all, from the era in which it was written.

Eileen wrote: "I think you'll like most of the stories in there, especially The Three Garridebs, which features a scene that I've seen people pointing to as the gayest in the whole series. :) ..."

One of my personal reading goals this year is to finish as many series that I am in the middle of as I can. Since that's the last of the original Sherlock Holmes stuff I have read, I really should get to it. So, it is working it's way up on my list. ;)

I've always heard that of Billy Budd, which I haven't read either (um, I've listened to the opera!). I think Claggart is meant to have a homoerotic obsession with Billy??

What sticks in my mind, from Moby Dick, is the scene when they are squeezing hands in the bucket of spermaceti.

But if these matters 'cannot be named', Melville got rather cheeky with Queequeg and Ishmael in the same bed, with marriage imagery. Maybe the 'cannot be named' thing also operated as permission to speak quite freely and pretend you aren't, if necessary.

Rick wrote: "I haven't read it yet, but isn't Billy Budd, Sailor supposed to gay as well? Not obviously, but that is the author's intended meaning. That-which-can-not-be-mentioned and all, from the era in which it was written. ..."

Not sure Rick, but it is homoerotic. There's some undercurrents of jealousy/buried feeling along the lines of A Separate Peace.

I thought Billy Budd, Sailor was a great book .. fairly short too. It's my favorite of the books I've read by Melville so far

The opera was by an openly gay man, Benjamin Britten. So he chose queer topics for operas. Another is 'Peter Grimes'.

Bryn wrote: "... What sticks in my mind, from Moby Dick, ..."

Clearly, I need to read that as well. ;)
That was another classic I read as a kid in one of those horrible edited-&-abridged-for-children editions that, at the time, I had no idea I was missing out on huge chunks of the narrative.

Bryn wrote: "I think Claggart is meant to have a homoerotic obsession with Billy??..."

I definitely can see this Bryn.

Bryn wrote: "The opera was by an openly gay man, Benjamin Britten. So he chose queer topics for operas. Another is 'Peter Grimes'."

I saw that opera (Billy Budd) a few years ago. Operas are usually not my thing, but that was an interesting one. Didn't E.M. Forster write the libretto for it as well? I think he did if I'm remembering correctly.

Greg wrote: "Not sure Rick, but it is homoerotic. There's some undercurrents of jealousy/buried feeling along the lines of A Separate Peace.

I thought Billy Budd, Sailor was a great book .. fairly short too. It's my favorite of the books I've read by Melville so far "

I need to read A Separate Peace as well. I keep thinking I read in school, but I when I read the description, nothing sounds familiar. I have a copy of Billy Budd and Other Stories, just haven't had time to get to it yet.

Greg wrote: "Didn't E.M. Forster write the libretto for it as well? ..."

Looking up my CD sleeve, yes he did: 'Libretto by EM Forster and Eric Crozier.'

Jesse wrote: "Over in the discussion on Catcher in the Rye an interesting point was raised about the possibility of reading the Glass sons as gay, as well as discussion about ambiguity and subtext in general. I'..."

This is a great topic thread, Jesse, thanks for starting it! :)

I second Rick: thanks Jesse.

So that women get a look-in, I'll mention that I have spotted gay women, I believe deliberate, in The Count of Monte Cristo, in Anna Karenina, in Dostoyevsky's Netochka Nezvanova. These Russian cases are intriguing: the encounter between Grushenka and Katerina in The Brothers Karamazov is so sensual that I cannot work out its status. Except I am convinced the Russian 19th century was well well aware of lesbianism and that these are writing about it consciously.