Support for Indie Authors discussion

Dear,

What's your opinion, if instead of using something like ..."he said with a smile", I'll put "-:)" in a fictional book? Or about the use of emoticons in books in general?
I know it's probably not customary, 'shallow, cheap and infantile' even, but their use becomes more and more frequent. If I wrote something Leo Tolstoy style, it wouldn't fit, but in my stuff, it should be Ok.
My editor and beta-readers seem to be against.

You?

I would use them only if you were quoting a text or email. Within the quotes. Otherwise I would find the off putting. They would be a toe stub and make me fallout of the story.

:P

not different to any other symbol that conveys some information - is it really any different to '!' or '?'

I say use it

:-)

Nik wrote: "You? "

Me?

I do not use emoticons. Ever. Not in writing, not in texting, not on the 'Net. I do not use them with a goat, I do not use them on a boat. I do not use them with a goose, I am ripping off Dr. Seuss.

Really, though. It's your book. If you trust your editor and your beta readers, strike them out. But, if there is a strong reason to have emoticons in your book, or if you just really want them there, go for it. Bottom line, it's your book.

I have seen it done before. I was wandering in a thrift shop, bored, browsing books and found a short novel for teen girls that was told completely with text speak.

Who knows? In twenty years they could be a part of language and be so common that everyone will be putting them in their books.

Except me.

P.S. I moved this to the Author Help section. Not that posting it in the Fun folder was a bad idea, but I think you might get more responses in the Author Help section.

Personally, unless you're demonstrating what someone is writing in a text or IM conversation or such, I wouldn't use them. My wife read a book that was done entirely in text messages, so it had a ton of them, but in any other work, I think they'd be out of place. But your mileage may vary and all that. Do what works for you.

Usually I'm the first to say F the rules, but this seems like a bad idea.

I read a lot of YA books and don't mind if emotions are used in text messages between the two characters but I don't think I want them to replace words that describe someone emotions. Books should be all about words...

Charles wrote: "Usually I'm the first to say F the rules, but this seems like a bad idea."

and I agree. Leave emoticons for messages and internet. If they're messaging in the book, then I guess it's ok inside of the messages, but not for the rest of the story.

Me? I doubt it - and if I did, I would let it sit a good while to see what I thought about it later. (I also think using them would be quite a bit different than using "?" or "!".)
That said, it depends on the story and how they are used. In a book like Night Film where lots of graphics, news clippings, police notes are used it would probably fit as part of an evidence file.
Used throughout as part of the story could get old fast.

Nik, my first reaction was to say no, no, no, hell no. Maybe if you're writing the story as a young girl's diary, or something like that. But after I thought about it, why not? If you've thought of a new way to present a story, and you're enthusiastic about it, don't let anyone squash it. If it works out, you may start something big. If it doesn't, blame it on your enemies and move on; you tried something new, it didn't work, and that's okay.

But, you never know, it might be refreshing and new, and people might love it. Maybe it's not for your current work, since your people didn't approve, but maybe somewhere down the road--who knows?

I'll also play devil's advocate and say that going completely against convention has produced some revolutionary art.

House of Leaves, for example, is way too weird for me to sit down and read myself, but it has quite a dedicated cult following. And if the author had asked me beforehand my opinions on the stylistic nature of the text, I might have said "yeah, that seems like it might be a bad idea".

I can't offer an opinion without having read the work. In a sense, emoticons are just like anything else in writing. If they appear "gimmicky" or jump out as out of place they will tend to turn readers off. If they fit in the style, they could be an enhancement.

Remember that just about everything that has expanded and/or evolved art was originally someone's bad idea. There was this Athenian dramatist back ~2,500 years ago or more, who had this weird, radical idea: he added a third actor to his play. I would bet the critics freaked.

Follow your instincts. Live & learn.

why not? i'he read e (a novel entirely in email type format) and that one book about Romeo and juilet texting each other and using 1334 speak. I use emojis occasionally if my characters are texting each other (they we're using 1334 at first but had updated from pager use lolz showing my age).
im all for it. doo eet. >:D

In my opinion, emoticons add character to the characters themselves. Just like how you can tell how a character is like through the way you portray them, adding emoticons can add depth to the character itself.

Of course, if you add emoticon in books that is considered high literature, it will definitely be out of place. In a young adult book, it is quite often used. In Japan and Korea for example, you will encounter emoticons in almost every light novel that uses a modern day setting and your readers, mostly teens in middle or high schools will almost expect it of you. Some high schoolers would consider a light novel without a single emoticon or light novel cliche to be stuffy and likely not written by someone who knows what they enjoy.

Personally though, if you want to put it and you feel it's not out of place, do as you wish. It's your style. Who knows, maybe 5 or 10 years in the future, you're known not because you're a bestseller, but because of your distinctive laxed and light-hearted style.

Please take note that I'm just trying to be positive, I have not read any of your books yet to predict what will happen. Sorry.

I think the key phrase in your own query is "But in my stuff, it should be OK." Who can say? You've gotten some nay and yay opinions here, so what about whipping out a couple of proofs to beta readers with the emoticons in them as see what they say?

Thanks a lot for your input! It's helpful and encouraging to some degree.
If I summarize, we have here 16 opinions, out of which few are positive, whereas most wouldn't like seeing emoticons in a book, yet some might see merit under certain circumstances or if used in portraying text or message exchanges. Few more although initially negative are nonetheless supportive for the sake of experiment and innovation.
What I was thinking is that we have a whole new generation growing up, which is used to a somewhat different language, way of expressing emotions and communication in general. I mean who write letters to each other today even? Although my stuff is for adults only and I'm very particular about it, but youngsters tend to become grown-ups someday -:) and then I want to have them among my readers. I don't say we need to adapt to any trend, but if someone writes contemporary stuff, a 'modern' feel can be relevant, I think. Maybe it's just me refusing to become an old fart already -:)
And if I touch something a little more abstract, maybe in few decades writers would visualize their ideas in images rather than write their stories in words, something like 'screening' their stories. Just my attempt at science fiction, where I'm a total rookie -:)

I use them, just for my amusement when writing. Then I take them out before my editor has a heart attack. :-))

I think, if quoting a text messages, or teenagers, it could be very fitting.

:-)))))

Dwayne wrote: "Not in writing, not in texting, not on the 'Net. I do not use them with a goat, I do not use them on a boat. I do not use them with a goose, I am ripping off Dr. Seuss.
..."

Glad the question inspired some fabulous poetry, Dwayne -:)

Mimi wrote: "I use them, just for my amusement when writing. Then I take them out before my editor has a heart attack. :-))

I think, if quoting a text messages, or teenagers, it could be very fitting.

:-)))))"

Yeah, you gotta be tender with editors -:)

Kaelia wrote: "Nik wrote: "Thanks a lot for your input! It's helpful and encouraging to some degree.
If I summarize, we have here 16 opinions, out of which few are positive, whereas most wouldn't like seeing emo..."

-:)

A unique way to think about it: you get a higher word count describing the emoticon than actually using it.

If it makes sense within the context of the book or the speaker or is a demonstration of a written email or text - then go for it. If its an artistic "choice" which is more about you as the author then you may be on rockier ground. ; )

J.J. wrote: "A unique way to think about it: you get a higher word count describing the emoticon than actually using it."

Very true, because emoticons' purpose is to decrease writing symbols, but is there any advantage in having, let's say, 100-1000 words more? Or more genrally, what does this or that word count influence?

Mike wrote: "If it makes sense within the context of the book or the speaker or is a demonstration of a written email or text - then go for it. If its an artistic "choice" which is more about you as the author ..."

Thanks, I'll count it for another supportive conditional vote -:)

Nik wrote: "J.J. wrote: "A unique way to think about it: you get a higher word count describing the emoticon than actually using it."

Very true, because emoticons' purpose is to decrease writing symbols, but ..."
Just as people judge a book by the cover or the blurb, there is an extent to which people judge a book by the word count these days. There's no uniform way to judge a book and word counts in either direction have their fans. For example a massive word count(100k+) suggests a more in depth universe, more development, larger story while a shorter word count suggests a story that gets to the point and doesn't waste your time with verbose descriptions.

It's kind of like how we used to judge books on page counts. If you're 12 years old are you going to choose to read a book that's 400 pages, or one that's 150 pages? Would Harry Potter have been as successful if each book were only a 100 pages?

If you're in Select, a higher word count with give you a higher KENP which means more money per read.

At the end of the day, a book's length should only be as long as it needs to be to tell the story and keep the reader entertained, but if we're talking raw word count there are considerations that come into play, good and bad, for all options.

J.J. wrote: "Nik wrote: "J.J. wrote: "A unique way to think about it: you get a higher word count describing the emoticon than actually using it."

Very true, because emoticons' purpose is to decrease writing s..."

Oh, I see now. Up until writing the first book, I wasn't even aware of the word count. Just pages. Thanks for explaining, J.J. Well, I guess minor deviations of up to 1-2K words are still pretty much insignificant...

Nik wrote: "J.J. wrote: "Nik wrote: "J.J. wrote: "A unique way to think about it: you get a higher word count describing the emoticon than actually using it."

Very true, because emoticons' purpose is to decre..."

That is true. if we're talking about a difference caused by describing the emoticon vs. using it, there won't be much of a difference, but there are some who look to "game" Select as some call it, inflating word count, bundling books and stories, increasing font size or adding spaces trying to squeeze that extra .4 cents out of a reader.

Then again, a lot of 19th century authors we consider classics today wrote for magazines paying them by the word. If Charles Dickens or Thomas Hardy seem unnecessarily long it was because they too were trying to squeeze that extra penny from the publisher.

J.J. wrote: "If Charles Dickens or Thomas Hardy seem unnecessarily long it was because they too were trying to squeeze that extra penny from the publisher...."

Hmm, I thought my snappy style was kind of a virtue, now I see that it can be quite a disadvantage -:)

I think it depends on the book.

If there is a legitimate reason to use them in the book, then I say go for it.
For example, if there is a particular character that is very tech savvy, and a bit energetic, and very hip and in the now, (and the book isn't about sad times at Grandma's funeral) then I think it might be okay for that one character to use them when talking. It would certainly tell us a lot about them!

Another example would be with text messages as sad above. Those would be alright even if it was Sad Times at Grandma's Funeral.

Finally the last example would be if the book has an usual premise.
Is there an alien who communicates emphatically?
Are all the characters members of Guild L33t?
Is there a character like Rorschach who has an ever changing face?
Is the book set inside a video game?

I fall under that last one. My game is inside a video game. So I may not be the best to help you here because I have completely fallen into using emoticons! Emoticons, ♥s ♪s ◘s, and visual jokes with words are all fair game. I have a character that uses backwards smilies (: and one that uses the ^-^ ones to help make them different from others.

C.B. wrote: "I think it depends on the book.

If there is a legitimate reason to use them in the book, then I say go for it.
For example, if there is a particular character that is very tech savvy, and a bit e..."

Sounds like a reasonable approach and looks like you've gone that extra mile to give a bit of variety to your characters ^:+:^

CB has the perfect example of how it can work. His characters are talking to each other via a game, so it's really typing to each other. We all know that when we play games, we use a lot of emoticons.

In that manner, I say yes, it's ok to use it. Same with emails, and even diaries parts in books. But when a character is actually talking to someone, to add the :P or ;) after the words sounds a little strange to me. I do know a few people who wouldn't even know what it means.

I think our texting crippled our expressions, sneaking into our emails, and seriously butchering English language....:-))
I love emoticons and LOL or WTF, but when I see b-day I say, let's not be that lazy....:-))

How do you guys feel about 'hahaha' or .....'hehe' in books?
Lazy shortcut or acceptable in today's language?

Sorry to highjack your discussion Nik....:-)

G.G. wrote: "CB has the perfect example of how it can work. His characters are talking to each other via a game, so it's really typing to each other. We all know that when we play games, we use a lot of emotico..."

To tell you the truth, except for a smiley I'm pretty much lost with any others, so you can probably add me to those few people... -:)

Mimi wrote: "I think our texting crippled our expressions, sneaking into our emails, and seriously butchering English language....:-))
I love emoticons and LOL or WTF, but when I see b-day I say, let's not be t..."

I think Hehe and hahaha are ok in dialogues, especially for the latter if the character is being sarcastic. For hehe, I know a lot of people who say that in real life along with LOL. Heck I once answered that to someone who had made a joke. I discretely tried to change the word for something else so they wouldn't notice. After that I tried to type haha instead so if I'd make a mistake and use it in real life, it would sound more 'normal'.

However, I've never heard of someone saying WTF, first the three letters don't form a word like lol does. And spelling it takes more time than just saying it. So using that in a dialogue wouldn't really fit, I think.

Mimi wrote: "I think our texting crippled our expressions, sneaking into our emails, and seriously butchering English language....:-))
I love emoticons and LOL or WTF, but when I see b-day I say, let's not be t..."

You are welcome, Mimi. I have already much more answers than I'd initially expected, so I can draw my conclusions...
It seems nowadays any understandable abbreviation becomes very popular in no time, because people don't have patience for long expressions of thoughts and especially emotions. Shortcuts supersede the regular stuff, it feels... I use haha & hehe freely, didn't even think it could be something unorthodox

Thanks you guys, you gave me some ammunition for my editor....hahaha.

xoxoxo

G.G., you bring up a very good point. If your writing in modern times what passes as okay to use? Emoticons? Lol? I suppose it depends on the topic, genre and characters your using. If your writing a YA with teens then I'd say all that works but anything else I'd stay away depending on the content.

Yes, like many things this does depend on the genre, the book, the audience, everything. I wouldn't put them in a 'never use' list, but I wouldn't use them in many projects.

You wouldn't want a fire breathing dragon in a car repair manual after all.
...
Actually, I want that now. It would be the best car repair manual ever.

I have heard people say WTF in casual conversation, much like BRB and others.
WTF tends to be said two different ways, either really fast as almost one word, or as long as possible, with each letter being its own sentence.

If your character shoots rainbows out of her fingers, is a magical robot, and they talk like a serial texter who has eaten 14 bowls of Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs for breakfast, then that character should probably use emoticons in conversations. In fact, that is an amazing character idea, and I am using it in something now.

C.B. wrote: "I have heard people say WTF in casual conversation, much like BRB and others.
WTF tends to be said two different ways, either really fast as almost one word, or as long as possible, with each lette..."

The robot may impair your wordcount, C.B. -:)

If you end up using emoticons in text, you will need to be careful about other punctuation.

For example, I'm not sure whether your smilie comes after a dash, or whether it has a mohawk hairdo.

Some sound remark, as Mohawk hairstyle could be an emoticon in itself, standing for punky mood -:), so punctuation is probably important

C.B. wrote: "or as long as possible, with each letter being its own sentence...."

This one is me. but then I like "WTF" when I'm not as serious about it as when I actually want to say "what the f-"

I'm not sure about all abbreviations, but they have become common place long before texting came into practice, and it's not so out of place to see them in a story. I think the only rule should be if they're not widely known, they must be explained the first time they're used.

For what it's worth, I'd say no unless you're doing something like the 'Diary of a wimpy kid'.
When your book gets translated into many other languages, they may not be so meaningful!
Good luck.

Mike wrote: "For what it's worth, I'd say no unless you're doing something like the 'Diary of a wimpy kid'.
When your book gets translated into many other languages, they may not be so meaningful!
Good luck."

Maybe emoticons could be a new pan-global language instead of esperanto -:)

As a writer, your job is to convey thoughts and ideas and emotions with WORDS.

That said, I'm sure you could go the emoticon route if you had a children's book or maybe if you were reprinting emails, diary entries, etc.

But do what you think works. If it doesn't work...well, you'll find out soon enough.

Jim wrote: "As a writer, your job is to convey thoughts and ideas and emotions with WORDS.

That said, I'm sure you could go the emoticon route if you had a children's book or maybe if you were reprinting ema..."

Fair enough