Our Shared Shelf discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Archive
>
What Happened When an NFL Player Called Me Out
date
newest »
newest »
Two thumbs up! It's amazing the shit thrown at women for expressing their opinion and calling people out for being sexist.
Rosalinde wrote: "Samantha, you're awesome."Agreed.
When I initially read his tweet, I snickered a tad at the PC joke. Then I kept reading.
I want to thank you for bringing this to our attention. What can be learned here isn't so much the fact that there are Twitter trolls waiting for somebody to ambush with hate. That's nothing new.
No, what I'm taking away from this is the point you're trying to make, Samantha. It shouldn't not be a derogatory term. Most people that have used it over the years (myself included) surely didn't mean to degrade the source material (for lack of a better reference). But yes, it is meant to humiliate the recipient. Even in a joking self referencing manner like this player was doing it, the picture painted is one of degradation.
I don't believe he meant it to be anything other than a humorous dig at himself. But that doesn't take into account the meaning behind the words used and how they may be a slap in the face of someone reading/hearing them.
Thank you for sharing this incident and the awareness that your story brings to the situation. This is exactly the kind of thing that modern feminism needs to help educate and retrain people into treating each other better.
And yes, you're awesome.
To be completely and totally honest, I don't really understand why being called a p**** or vagina. I mean, that part of a females body is pretty strong, if you think about it. I mean it is able to stretch to accommodate a baby when giving birth and, not to bash on men or anything, we aren't as likely to keel over in pain if we get kicked there (again that's not a bash just a statement that the male genitals are more sensitive) If anything, being called that should be considered a compliment considering how strong it is and how much it can put up with without breaking or tearing.That's why whenever I hear someone call someone else a P****, I just get confused because its meant to be an insult but I don't really understand why its insulting when you think about what the organ itself undergoes. I always point that out too, I just say 'I don't get it, how is that a bad thing or an insult?' and try to make them explain it to me and not a lot of people can.
Wow, lots of male reproductive organs among sports fans, so it seems. Or female reproductive organs if you really like the c-word like I do (I hope we can agree that doesn't make me less of a feminist?).In all seriousness, this is quite telling on numerous things. First of all, it's telling on some people's way of mindlessly defending famous people. Second would be their very weak sense of maturity and/or humour. I'll admit the joke wasn't as unfunny as it could have been, but the more I saw people defending it (including the guy himself) the more trouble I had believing they were all old enough to drive and vote (not that I like either of those things).
Anyway, I'm very glad you put this out, Samantha, and you should be proud for not letting these female reproductive organs (the one that starts with a C) bring you down like that. You were well within your right to criticize and you did so in a very mature manner. :)
Looking at the reactions, I'm actually disappointed with the way Pat McAfee handled this.While I don't feel that his original tweet was meant to offend, he really missed an opportunity to learn something and be aware of how his word choices might affect people.
For one, he reacted poorly to Samantha's tweet back to him. Most importantly, he played the victim and allowed his followers to run with it unchecked. That shouldn't have happened. Even if he disagreed with Samantha, she took the matter to him in a respectful manner and he did not return that respect.
Mod
Agreed. I think the answer to your question is simply that a vagina connotes woman, and women are weak. That's as far as thought goes when making a cliché old joke like this.
Samantha, good for you! I'm sorry that you're receiving so much internet hate, but you should wear it like a badge of honor. Ya did good!
Yeah, I agree. Making people try to explain why its funny or why they used it as a joke will make the person think though. If you ask why someone called someone else a P**** for example, they could say its because they are weak or something and then you can reply with 'well, that organ is not weak at all, so I don't get how those relate." or something along those lines, being polite of course and it'll make people start to think on what it is they are saying. That's what I've started to do at least. It won't always work because not everyone is willing, but hey, Rome wasn't built in a day
I actually have something of a differing view on that particular topic. I have since stopped using p**** as an insult because I realized two things about that:1) it is used in a context of weakness (as we've established)
but what I see everyone neglect is that
2) there is no male counterpart word that you can use in the same context. If we took c*nt for example, we'll find that it is used in a context of indecency, and there are plenty of other words to espress the same though: d*ck; c*ck; *ss(h*le); t*t (though that one is mostly used in Britain and it doesn't really have a male counterpart because there is no specific word for a male chest)
So, when it comes to comparing people with a gender specific organ, aside from just the context in which it is used, I think we should also pay attention for whether or not there is a male counterpart to that word that can be said in the same context, otherwise we're actually being sexist. There is no male substitute for p**** to use in the context of calling someone weak, therefore I have ceased to use the word. However, gender organs can be used in different context (mostly when calling someone stupid or indecent) and they have male counterparts, so I don't see the problem with them.
To say that comparing someone with a vagina in general is wrong, is therefore a bit sexist in its own right because there are contexts in which you can also compare someone with a penis and still express the same thought, yet you do not seem to find that wrong. You could make the argument that they're both wrong because they use genitals as insults and therefore send the message that sex is a bad thing, and while I would strongly argue against that, it would at least be consistent in its reasoning.
If we're going to look at context, what we should keep in mind is the words themselves. That is, all of those words you use Tim are intended to be negative/derogatory terms. The words are where the negativity lies, not in the organs themselves.I think the lesson to be learned isn't so much the defining of words or coming up with alternatives, but the fact that some words hurt. If a word hurts a person, it is not that person's fault for "having no sense of humor" "having no personality" or "being short of their senses" or whatever.
For me, and I'm the only one I can speak for, if I know a particular word will hurt a person that will be hearing it, I do not use it. That's just a form of respect.
A lot of folks on Twitter thought that Samantha was overreacting or being too sensitive to the word. I don't think she was. I feel that her point was to share a little awareness of how that word might affect some people.
A little awareness and education never hurt anyone.
Chris wrote: "If we're going to look at context, what we should keep in mind is the words themselves. That is, all of those words you use Tim are intended to be negative/derogatory terms. The words are where the..."When it comes to p****, yes, those are derogatory words. When it comes to the other words I listed, I'm sorry to say but they're insults: they're not discriminatory but they're still insults and thus they're supposed to be offensive to one extent or another. There are no respectful ways to insult someone, only elaborate ways. And frankly I for one like to have insults as an option in my repertoire of words (not to say that I just insult everyone, I just want to have the option to insult someone when I see fit).
You can also find insulting words funny words, but not finding them funny doesn't mean you have no sense of humour, I don't really see what gave you the impression that I was suggesting that, if indeed you thought I was suggesting that. But I can see what you mean and the main point on which we differ is I simply like harsh language, I just don't want harsh words to imply anything more than they should. By this I mean that harsh language should still have a core of descriptive truth to them, but it should not exceed the boundaries of this core.
If you call someone a p**** you imply that they are weak/cowardly but also that all women are, thus I do not use the word, as there are plenty of other words to call someone weak/cowardly if I should feel the need to. When you call someone any other word for a reproductive organ you can pretty much use it on any gender, race or body type and it still implies the same characteristic: stupidity/indecency. If you do not use words that you think will hurt someone, then I understand, but if ever I feel the need to insult someone, I'll do so as I see fit, and if the particular word I use hurts them, then all that means is I did a good job at insulting them. The justifiability of me insulting them in the first place, however, is open to interpretation and interpretation is in turn dependant upon the situation.
Tim, I actually wasn't setting out to contradict you, but rather focus on the point Samantha was getting at. I did get off track in my post, as well.No, I agree that you can use words as insults with that being your intent. Sure, that is a usage of our language that has its place and time. (I can flame war with the best, or used to be able to at least ;)
Pat McAfee didn't intend to insult or hurt anyone by his tweet. It was aimed at himself, after all. It's all about word choice and being aware of the words that you're using and how they could be taken. Instead of taking this lesson from Samantha, he chose to call her out as having a lack of sense of humor. He missed the point totally. And the worst part of it is that he implied that it was her fault.
There I go again getting off focus. Or maybe it's that I'm clinging to my focus. Anyway, I wasn't disagreeing with you but rather making sure we realize that word choice is what we should all be conscious of.
Chris wrote: "Tim, I actually wasn't setting out to contradict you, but rather focus on the point Samantha was getting at. I did get off track in my post, as well.No, I agree that you can use words as insults ..."
Oh... well now I really feel like a massive male reproductive organ :/
Sorry for failing to understand what you meant, but I thought I expressed myself very clearly on how his choice of words wasn't well though out and how he failed to learn his lesson (as I already posted on this thread earlier). Because of that, I felt like you were trying to argue against something (you thought) I said. Also since you emphasized on how people reacted to Samantha's tweet and how she was not overreacting, I reckoned you thought I was suggesting otherwise.
I don't know, I just felt like there was disagreement but I didn't really understand where exactly it was coming from or what the disagreement was aimed at specifically, so my apologies.
PS: if you need someone with you in the flame war trenches, feel free to ask and I'll call Tim from 3 years ago to help you out. He may be useless whilst thinking he's a genius, but in doing so he'll definitely make the enemy take you more seriously. :d
lol, naw, no disagreement here.We're good, and hopefully I won't need help in flame wars, as I'm getting too old for those. But I'll keep you in mind if I need backup someday.
Have ya'll seen that Sheng Wang quote that is usually misattributed to Betty White? Seems apropos here...“Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding.”
Kudos, Sammantha! That Pat guy is a complete douchebag.
Melle wrote: "Have ya'll seen that Sheng Wang quote that is usually misattributed to Betty White? Seems apropos here...“Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough,..."
The term "grow some balls" came along because:
1. Men are stronger physically then women.
2. Women do not have balls.
3. From 1. and 2., implying that one does not have balls is the same as implying that one is weak.
Mod
pusillanimous
adjective
"showing a lack of courage or determination; timid."
I wonder how many people knowingly use it with that definition in mind though. Like if you were to survey people and ask them what P**** stands for, what would they say? How many would know its short for Pusillanimous? How many would imply or state that it is another word for the female genitalia?
Mod
Commented on the post! Here's a summary: I thought when someone said "don't be such a pussy" they meant a pussy-cat who is cowardly as opposed to a tiger / tigress who is not. This tweet was a revelation for me. And it WAS in a bad taste.
Ashwin wrote: "Commented on the post! Here's a summary: I thought when someone said "don't be such a pussy" they meant a pussy-cat who is cowardly as opposed to a tiger / tigress who is not. This tweet was a re..."
That is indeed a good possibility of how to interpret the word "pussy" but in the adult world I'm pretty sure that, with or without feminism, a pussy-cat is not the first thing people think of when they hear "pussy" in the same way that they probably don't think of a rooster when you call someone a "cock".
I see it like Katelyn, wear the bad comments like a badge of pride. Take this like a Ravenclaw, with the knowledge that everybody deserves gender equality and that you know the definition of it, sadly, not everyone does.Kikki. Demons run when a good man or woman goes to war wrote: "To be completely and totally honest, I don't really understand why being called a p**** or vagina. I mean, that part of a females body is pretty strong, if you think about it. I mean it is able to ..."
Not only that, like Katelyn stated, it refers to women and implies that women are weak, it also reduces women to one thing: their sex. I mean, it's very important to have children, but that's not the point here. It implies that women consist of nothing more than their sex (which is not only showing a lack of gender equality but is furthermore misogynistic).
Tim wrote: "Wow, lots of male reproductive organs among sports fans, so it seems. Or female reproductive organs if you really like the c-word like I do (I hope we can agree that doesn't make me less of a femin..."
I had to think a bit until I found the word you so perfectly paraphrased. Which shows in itself how misogynistic our society is, because the female counterpart was no problem at all.
For the rest, I must say, I couldn't have written it better.
But Tim, you're wrong, biologically there is a counterpart for each sex part.
In the beginning, we're all unisex. The absence or presence and the receptors of testosteron influence the sexual development in most cases. And since not only female but male sex parts develop from the same tissue, you can perfectly well say that there are counterparts. As long as you neglect fallopian tubes and ovaries, the tissue for that vanishes if in contact with testosteron.
Apart from that, we should really concentrate on the words, because connotation is something no one should neglect.
You're right, Kikki. Rome wasn't built in a day, and with this question you really can bring people to think about it. And there always black sheep, as we in Austria say, some you can't convert.
And my female friend, despite being really pervert sometimes, thinks that a pussy is from a pussy-cat. And no, I didn't know it comes from pusillanimous.
I hope you understand everythink I wanted to say, English is my second language and I sometimes find it hard to grasp the meaning of certain phrases or I don't know how to translate my German properly to a good English.
And for the end: reproductive organs sounds so scientific for my German-trained ear. We in Austria use reproductive more in law. The German word translated is something with again planted or something like this.
MeerderWörter wrote: "I see it like Katelyn, wear the bad comments like a badge of pride. Take this like a Ravenclaw, with the knowledge that everybody deserves gender equality and that you know the definition of it, sa..."I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant by "counterpart". I mean, I am aware that we start off as unisex during the early stages of fetal development, and of course every sex part has a male counterpart. What I meant by "there is no male counterpart" was that in regards to the word p**** being used to describe weakness, there is no word for a male sex part that can be used in the same insulting context. By this I meant: we use both sex parts to describe indecency or stupidity, but we only use the female sex part to refer to weakness. I wasn't really talking about biology.
If you understood that already, then I apologize for re-iterating it, but I don't see what else you were getting at when you explained the biology part (which you explained well, mind you). Could it just have been a linguistic misunderstanding?
It was linguistic misunderstanding, since English is my second, German my first language. And I thought you didn't know the unisex part, so I wanted to educate you.With the counterparts: we have that in German too ( we're using the same words btw.)
MeerderWörter wrote: "It was linguistic misunderstanding, since English is my second, German my first language. And I thought you didn't know the unisex part, so I wanted to educate you.With the counterparts: we have ..."
Thank you for explaining it further, but George Carlin taught me we start out as unisex (or perhaps female?) when he said "Where do you think those nipples came from, guys?" haha.
Well, we start as unisex. And if your body produces testosterone and it responds in the right way to the testosterone, you're masculinized, otherwise, without testosterone in the first place or when your body can't respond to it, it's the female way. So you could say that you're destined for female, and the testosterone shapes your body male. Exact the other way that Aristotle ( I think it was him) said. He said the woman deforms the male to a female.
MeerderWörter wrote: "Well, we start as unisex. And if your body produces testosterone and it responds in the right way to the testosterone, you're masculinized, otherwise, without testosterone in the first place or whe..."Well, the Ancient Greeks believed that if one were to let emotion come before intelligence, one would return in the next life as a woman, so it would hardly be surprising if Aritotle were to have held that view.
Loved your article. Good for you to stand up for women. Those haters were a bunch of idiots who need to grow up. Girls should not be called Pussys. Yes, girls may not always be as strong or as fast as men, but we can be very athletic. There is nothing wrong with girls wanting to be strong, fast, etc.
Jing Wen wrote: The term "grow some balls" came along because:1. Men are stronger physically then women.
2. Women do not have balls.
3. From 1. and 2., implying that one does not have balls is the same as implying that one is weak.
We can't really prove that "men are stronger physically then (sic) women" 'till one gives birth to a baby. And gives birth vaginally, not Caesarean section. And it's a breech-birth baby. After about 30 hours of labor. Then we'll talk.
Lynn wrote: " Jing Wen wrote: The term "grow some balls" came along because:1. Men are stronger physically then women.
2. Women do not have balls.
3. From 1. and 2., implying that one does not have balls is t..."
Oh please. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
Not sure why you assume that physical strength equals pain endurance.
Jing Wen wrote: Oh please. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
Not sure why you assume that physical strength equals pain endurance.
Not sure why you don't realize that pain endurance is at least a part of physical strength since women being able to endure the pain of childbirth means that the human race exists at all. (Of course, that may not necessarily be a good thing ;-)
Lynn wrote: " Jing Wen wrote: Oh please. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm
Not sure why you assume that physical strength equals pain endurance.
Not sure why you d..."
Not only did you choose to ignore the statistics of men-women ratio in physically demanding jobs, you also didn't address that the records for weight lifting of men is consistently higher then those of women. Ergo, proven that "men are stronger physically then (sic) women".
Not sure why you don't realize that pain endurance is at least a part of physical strength
This is basically nit picking for the sake of an argument. You are barely grasping at straws. If you were too lazy to google it, here's the definition of physical strength vs pain tolerance.
Physical strength is the measure of an exertion of force on physical objects. Increasing physical strength is the goal of strength training.
Pain tolerance is the maximum level of pain that a person is able to tolerate
Literally two different characteristics. By definition, pain tolerance does not equal physical strength.
Lynn, I mean you no offense but Jin is right. When it comes to physical strength, men have it easier. Physical pain may be attributed to strength to one extent or another, but that doesn't change muscular capacity, in which men are treated better than women by nature. Yes, women can be stronger, but when it comes to two people of different gender with the same muscular percentage, the average cis man excels over the average cis woman, that's just a fact. Also, cis men cannot give birth in the first place, so there is no way whatsoever to test your hypothesis, and even if there was, men could experience more pain in the proces possibly because they have more nerve endings in their pubic region.Also, pain is (partially) psychosomatic. Lots of people train themselves to be (more) resistant to pain through meditation. Ergo, if pain is attributed to physical strength, it only is up toa certain extent. Again, your point can't be proven. Can we please just move on to a different subject.
Sure we can move onto a different subject, must not make any males uncomfortable, gasp! And, of course the patriarchy (& those in whose best interests it is to keep it going) is always "right". I can see now it'll never change either; things are just as sexist now as they were 50 yrs. ago. Just seems so odd to see so many young (& you'd think therefore more evolved) males who seem to share the same values about gender (& other equality) issues as my grandparents' generation (& that was a long time ago). Sad.
I think your response was so smart and brave. And the fact that so many people became defensive and insulted you, just shows that we need more brave people like you. I totally agree with you that people shouldn't use "it's just a joke" as an excuse to be allowed to say anything (that, by the way, reinforces a system of opression!). What kind of jokes are (not) accepted says a lot about our culture. This short video explains the difference between offensive and opressive jokes and that using "it's just a joke" as an excuse doesn't free you from consequences. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg1aT...
I'm on your side: "Being a woman shouldn't be an insult."
I'm on your side: "Being a woman shouldn't be an insult."
Lynn wrote: "Sure we can move onto a different subject, must not make any males uncomfortable, gasp! And, of course the patriarchy (& those in whose best interests it is to keep it going) is always "right". I c..."Okay, seriously? Are you saying that pointing out men and women of the same body types tend to not be equally strong (usually more in the favour of men), is some kind of patriarchal propaganda? How am I supposed to take that? I do indeed tend to not feel comfortable when someone makes biologically inaccurate (or virtually improvable) statements of any sort and then proceeds to defend them this way, call me old-fashioned.
Seems to me the whole major league sports culture encourages this opinion. Just an ignorant way of teasing each other, "Oh, we're all just a bunch of dumb guys kidding around! Don't take us seriously! "And I don't.
Comedy is subjective so you shouldn't feel bad at all for not finding something that funny. The responses were a bit over the top but I agree with what you said. People are bound to always disagree with you on anything, but don't worry, you are not alone! You did not try to offend him or threaten him in any way, just simple stated your opinion. Ignore the hateful comments and know that there is a huge community on your side.
Lynn wrote: "Sure we can move onto a different subject, must not make any males uncomfortable, gasp! And, of course the patriarchy (& those in whose best interests it is to keep it going) is always "right". I c..."Is it necessary to insult those who call you out for derailing the topic? They stuck to facts, you however resorted to personal insults. Who is the mature party here, you old generation, who stick to juvenile tactics, or us young ones, who can debate constructively without blowing below the belt?
Aglaea wrote: "Lynn wrote: "Sure we can move onto a different subject, must not make any males uncomfortable, gasp! And, of course the patriarchy (& those in whose best interests it is to keep it going) is always..."Now now, let's not generalise people in this group based on age either. That's being just as immature.
Tim wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Lynn wrote: "Sure we can move onto a different subject, must not make any males uncomfortable, gasp! And, of course the patriarchy (& those in whose best interests it is to keep it g..."If I recall correctly, she has mentioned her age in another thread. Apologies if I mixed up two members. I don't do passive-aggressive.
Aglaea wrote: "Tim wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Lynn wrote: "Sure we can move onto a different subject, must not make any males uncomfortable, gasp! And, of course the patriarchy (& those in whose best interests it is ..."That's not what I meant. I meant to say let's not turn this into an old vs. young thing, when it's just between Lynn and us criticising her.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
https://samanthastratton.wordpress.co...