Support for Indie Authors discussion

OK, so in my book (that I'm currently writing) my character is listening to her iPod.

Is this yet considered a household name, making it OK to say "iPod"?
Or should I be saying "mp3 player"?

The latter sounds corny, forced and horrid.
The device is going to crop up a fair bit so wanted to check before I get myself sued.

Hello T.L.
I'm just about to publish my second book, but it was when I was writing my first that I was advised, by someone experienced in the book industry, to avoid using brand names. I had included reference to a 'portokabin' in one of my stories. She advised that Portokabin regularly sue users of their name, even though it has almost become a generic word and that writers have had difficulty with them in the past.
I guess that the owners of brand names have different approaches ( the 'any publicity is good publicity' being one of them ). I now take the view that, unless I know that something is okay ( and company press departments are sometimes helpful with advice ) I don't use it.
It's a pain, but finding another way of saying something is just another writerly challenge. Could you refer to the ipod as her 'device' or something similar - making it part of the character's tics? Just a suggestion, please feel free to ignore,

Julie
Julie Anderson

Most companies will not object to reasonable contextual use. So if you describe someone drinking a can of Coke or Pepsi, so what. However if you describe someone dying of food poisoning after eating a well known breakfast cereal or in any way bring the brand into disrepute or tarnish its name then you might get a call from a lawyer.

If you still feel this is too risky then you can always use generic names that are not trademarked rather than the brand specific.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Many companies do fiercely protect their brands. One company failed to do so, and "aspirin" became a generic household word. I thankfully don't have that problem, since I write in the far future, so if I can mangle a brand name into something familiar yet vague, it works pretty well. Still, I doubt if most companies would have a problem with the mention of their product in fiction as long as it doesn't cast it in a bad light.

Thanks folks.

We're talking Apple here.
But then I'm using it in a positive way. It's certainly not going to cause any deaths.

If I decide to chicken out, is there any other word than 'mp3 player'?

Actually using the word device in reference to said iPod already, as it's alien to him. So don't want to repeat that word as it's his.

Oh it's a minefield, this writing malarky!?

:-/

My understanding is that if you acknowledge the brand names in an appendix it falls under fair use.

This blog post discusses the issue well: http://www.rightsofwriters.com/2010/1...

Jenycka wrote: "My understanding is that if you acknowledge the brand names in an appendix it falls under fair use.

This blog post discusses the issue well: http://www.rightsofwriters.com/2010/1......"

Thanks. I've also just come across that article.
So, it seems to be OK as long as I don't reflect the product in a bad light.

So many people have iPods, and using 'mp3 player' sounds so laboured.

So, romance novel...girl runs in forest, listens to iPod.


I think I'll be OK. :-)

Awesome! Really, if Apple and Blackberry didn't bitch about their products being written about as vehicles for a controlling, abusive relationship, a simple jog should be just fine.

I use brand names, but only in a positive or neutral light... such as "Sure, I'll have a Coke." Or, "I'll take a Pepsi."

We use brand name products in our daily lives - I want my books to be about real people in the real world. Why shouldn't we refer to them in a novel? I would never use a brand name in a negative way, though. That's just asking for trouble.

April wrote: "I use brand names, but only in a positive or neutral light... such as "Sure, I'll have a Coke." Or, "I'll take a Pepsi."

We use brand name products in our daily lives - I want my books to be abou..."

Thanks April.
Yeah, my previous books have featured Coca-Cola.
I don't know, I think just the mega Apple giant scared me, particularly as I refer to the iPod several times.

I just need to put my big girl pants on!
Like we say; as long as it's not in a negative light then it's fine.

I completely agree about 'keeping things real'.
Nobody says "mp3 player" which is why I don't want my characters to.

Right, onwards and upwards!

:-)

Jenycka wrote: "Awesome! Really, if Apple and Blackberry didn't bitch about their products being written about as vehicles for a controlling, abusive relationship, a simple jog should be just fine."

Oh yeah! That book (the paint chart one) did refer to products, didn't it? :-)
Pah! Enough of my petty worries then.

If it's part of the narrative and not part of dialogue, then it shouldn't matter how "mp3 player" sounds over "iPod" because the narrative voice doesn't normally mirror common speech. I reached a sequence in my current project where a character rummages through a first-aid kit and my mind stopped everything when I got to the "Band-Aids." "Bandages" and "adhesive strips" weren't going to ruin the narrative so I made the choice and moved on.

Only time using a brand name should be absolutely crucial is if the specific brand is part of the story, and as others have said, that can be another can of worms in and of itself.

J.J. wrote: "If it's part of the narrative and not part of dialogue, then it shouldn't matter how "mp3 player" sounds over "iPod" because the narrative voice doesn't normally mirror common speech. I reached a s..."

Unless it's first person POV.

How about calling it a music player if you worry?

"mp3 player" doesn't sound like an 'out of touch' person writing?
I'm honestly asking.

T.L. wrote: "OK, so in my book (that I'm currently writing) my character is listening to her iPod.

Is this yet considered a household name, making it OK to say "iPod"?
Or should I be saying "mp3 player"?

The..."

Can you think of a pet name for your ipod?

I think I went a bit overboard removing brands from a 400 page novel. Calling Adderall > dextroamphetamine does sound a bit off.
However, I'd rather error on the side of caution.

T.L. wrote: "Is this yet considered a household name, making it OK to say 'iPod'?"

I'm not an expert here, as I tend to just make up product names instead of using real world products (ie Speef instead of Spam). But, as far as I know you can use product names as long as you're not making some wild negative claim. Saying your character is listening to an iPod should be fine. Saying that said iPod caused inner ear damage, sent shock waves into her skull, rendered her sterile and cause smoke to roll out her eyes and nose is probably not recommended.

Jenycka wrote: "My understanding is that if you acknowledge the brand names in an appendix it falls under fair use.

This blog post discusses the issue well: http://www.rightsofwriters.com/2010/1......"

Thanks, Jenycka, that's just answered a question I had on mentioning specific companies in a book too!

Liz

Just use phone. Who even has a separate music player anymore? ;p
(And yes, from what I have seen, you can use products as long as you tread carefully, use a proper disclaimer, and don't make them look bad. Though to be fair, I have a terrible habit of making Applebees the butt of many book jokes.)

Christina wrote: "Just use phone. Who even has a separate music player anymore? ;p
(And yes, from what I have seen, you can use products as long as you tread carefully, use a proper disclaimer, and don't make them l..."

I do. Three iPods, iTunes on my computer, a stereo with AM/FM and dual cassettes, and a Technics record player. And I play them all (until I put all my vinyl on my iTunes). I go way back. Started when I was a little kid, before stereo, with a scratchy record player and some 45s.

I would go with iPod in the story if I wanted to. What's Apple gonna do--sue? Are you a millionaire? If not, I wouldn't worry about it. If they do, it's great publicity you couldn't buy any other way. The worst they're likely to do is send you a cease-and-desist letter, and then you can easily change it to what Christina suggested.

I think the worst that would happen is you'd get a letter asking you to remove "iPod" from the book. As long as you cooperated fully if that happens, (and that's a big if) you should be ok. Apple isn't going to immediately sue you for millions.

If I was writing the scene, I'd just say something about earbuds and music, and just imply the iPod part.

It seems that advice is simple: Avoid if possible. If not, don't defame.

Here's a hypothetical situation;

I intended to add "Europa Robotics" as antagonist in my book. They were to be a conglomerate nasty company. I googled it and they exist (and I am sure they are actually very nice people!
;)

So, I changed the name to "Enorpa" Robotics. No probs!

But what if a Company forms and registers it's name as Enorpa and trademarks it?

The law is an Ass! Would I have to cease and desist?

I don't think they would have a case aginst you as you had used the name first and copyrighted it in your book at an earlier date before they had formed their company.

I recommend reading the article Jenycka linked to. Here is what I consider to be the key point:
"I can only speculate that the movie industry's obsession with the depiction of brands in fictional works is the source of the largely unfounded concerns about the depiction of brand names in written fiction."

But as they say: read the whole thing.

Always remember: You are a writer. You can make it an eOrange Music player and no one will be the wiser!

Dwayne wrote: "T.L. wrote: "Is this yet considered a household name, making it OK to say 'iPod'?"

I'm not an expert here, as I tend to just make up product names instead of using real world products (ie Speef in..."

Dang it! I'll have to remove the ear bleeding, eye smoking part now!! :-O (tee hee)

I've read some of Dwayne's work, and think that he handles this very well. As I read his stories, I see his made up product names and know that he is talking about something that I am familiar with, yet he has not used any trademarked names or phrases.

I tend to use very generic terms when describing things like that. Instead of saying, "They went to McDonald's", I would say they went to one of those places that had plastic booths and catered to kids. Writing like that, you can get the point across without violating any trademarks.

In this particular question, though, I agree with Christina that it would be better to just use phone.

I've been asking similar questions with inconsistent answers, some say it's okay for a villain to be driving a "rusty old Ford", though reading some of these articles makes me doubtful.

I've also found this article very informative. Particularly the part about having said brand "interacting" in your story.

http://www.betternovelproject.com/blo...

My question is what's the best way to come up with a fictional brand, without finding out later you accidentally used an existing name?

thanks!

Try taking the two best brand names and fusing the first half of one with the second half of the other. You find some weird ones then!
ie.
#1 auto sheen
#2 shine right
=auto shine, auto right, sheen shine, shine sheen.

Who knew there were so many different brands of shiny car polish? lol

No, I think we actually have Auto Shine here in the UK.
See; it's really difficult!

By the way "rusty old Ford" is probably still OK.
Cars are made of metal, the car is old, the owner has probably left it out in the rain.
You didn't say "the crap Ford car" ;-p

xx

Thanks, that would be a good option. Can't remember where I read this, but I think you'd still have to be careful it's not too obvious which brands you're potentially mimicking.

A quick Googl.. I mean internet search comes up with various trademark checkers, though a lot of them seem to be country specific.

One of my secondary characters in "At Some Point in Time" gets a used Impala for his birthday. It is just mentioned in a couple of paragraphs. Does anyone think this is a problem?

Honestly, I don't think you'd be in trouble for that, but then again, I have one of my characters steal a Lamborghini in mine so I may not be the right person to tell you that.

As long as we don't make the brand look bad, I believe it's ok. Even for the old rusty Ford. It just tells the readers that the brand is reliable because it lasts a long time. :P

M. Ray Holloway Jr. wrote: "One of my secondary characters in "At Some Point in Time" gets a used Impala for his birthday. It is just mentioned in a couple of paragraphs. Does anyone think this is a problem?"

Does anyone call it a piece of crap?
Does it come alive and kill people?
Does it explode in paragraph two for having shoddy design?
Does it come alive and start having sex with people?

If yes to any of those, then it is a problem.

Side note: Just call it a Gazelle and it is extra fine.

Nope. He just gets surprised with a car and they go look at it in the garage.

I generic the hell out of everything. then again I never really bought brand names lolz does the brand really matter (other than dating your story)?

K.P. wrote: "I generic the hell out of everything. then again I never really bought brand names lolz does the brand really matter (other than dating your story)?"

With peanut butter it does.
Value priced peanut butter tastes like feet.

M. Ray Holloway Jr. wrote: "Nope. He just gets surprised with a car and they go look at it in the garage."

Then as long as your story isn't something the company might object to they will likely consider it free advertising!

If this is actually a serious problem, I'm wondering about that killer '58 Plymouth Fury they used in the Stephen King movie based on the book Christine. That Plymouth is used on the cover. Did he mention this make in the book? Were the movie producers sued by Chrysler Corporation?

Stephen King made the '58 Plymouth Fury an absolute badass in Christine, and it is some of the most iconic free advertising in the history of fiction.

Plymouth would be crazy to sue him! Which is why they haven't.

True, but they could've sued anyway since a badass, gas-guzzling '58 Plymouth might be bad for their economy image of later years. Right? Plymouth sales must have suffered for some reason, because the make has been discontinued, along with Mercury, Pontiac, and Olds. (Alas, since these were some of my favorite cars from the '50s and '60s)

Beautiful car, though.

@ ken
Do you mean the Plymouth Belvedere , Plymouth Satellite, Plymouth Fury, Plymouth Gran Fury, Plymouth Belmont or the much acclaimed Plymouth Savoy?

For most of us, there's only one that jumps off the page. I think that's a good enough reason not to sue when you're getting that kind of free advertising.
Oh, and most of the cars were taken out of production because of the design faults in the 1957 models onwards. There was nothing to be attributed to the 'bad ass' reputation it received. They were simply, as you put it, ' gas guzzling'.

Hope that explains it a bit.

That's the thing - the rusty old Ford is driven by the baddie. I suppose unlike Stephen King, some of us don't have the backing of a publisher, who check for trademark infringement and that sort of thing.

My question about fictional brand names was actually for something else though. Those of you who come up with names - how do you check it's definitely not taken?

G... (ahem, cough, cough)... oogle it.

But everything I try is taken, whether a proper brand or even just a domain name. FFS... (sorry)

If it doesn't diss or lie about their product, therefore affecting their sales and/or reputation in a bad way, most companies won't even bother. In fact, some might even add onto it: the 58 Plymouth Fury is an excellent example of that. Most of their sales probably came from young guys wanting that bad ass look so that car was the one to get. Why do you sue someone when it's giving your company a productivity boost?

Go back to message 6 by Jenycka and take a took at the link posted.But you just have to use your head at the end of the day, if in doubt, you can email and ask them.

EA wrote: "@ ken
Do you mean the Plymouth Belvedere , Plymouth Satellite, Plymouth Fury, Plymouth Gran Fury, Plymouth Belmont or the much acclaimed Plymouth Savoy?

For most of us, there's only one that jump..."

My parents had a '57 Plymouth Belvedere 4-door. The main difference that the '58s had double headlights in place of headlights and parking lights. My comment was more satirical than anything else. People or corporations can sue on any basis these days, and juries sometimes go along. And there was also the Plymouth Sports Fury, which I always coveted.

EA, thanks. That's what I keep hearing, but the article I mentioned earlier says even if not shown in a bad light, if the brand is "involved" in the story (not just mentioned in passing) it's better to create a fictional one.

I figures first they have to find out about it before they can sue you for using it. I seriously doubt big companies are trolling Amazon's Kindle selection searching for copyright infringement from authors whose royalties don't even pay for their coffee habit.

Plus ... I right SF so none of today's brands exist anymore.

You do have to pay attention to trademarks when titling your books though. But that's a whole other can-o-worms.

L.V. wrote: "But everything I try is taken, whether a proper brand or even just a domain name. FFS... (sorry)"

with the bizarre names of drugs lately, it's clear even the drug companies are having the same problem.