Our Shared Shelf discussion

Recently I learned about the discrimination of fat people and the term fatphobia.

I’m a naturally skinny person. And although it used to bother me a lot when I was a teenager that I didn’t have curves, I noticed I have a lot of thin privilege.

All in all my lifestyle is healthy. But I’m certainly not healthy in every way possible. For example, I don’t exercise regularly. But nobody is really concerned about that. If I were a fat person, people’s reaction would be completely different when they find out that I don’t do sports. Fat people are judged for every decision they make about food and exercise. Furthermore all the negative characteristics that fat people are associateed with, that fat people earn less at work and that they sometimes don’t get the medical treatment they really need. This form of discrimination and hate is so common and widely accepted because it‘s often veiled in „health concern“.

What are your experiences with fat shaming or thin privilege?

Do you think body acceptance is a feminist issue? And what does it encompass?

Resources:
„What is Fat Shaming?“ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl1w8...
„Thin privilege“ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPETV...
„What is the Body Positivity Movement?“ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tTmY...

I'll have to elaborate my thoughts deeper after dinner, but I would say that body acceptance should definitely be / is part of the feminist cause. It is certainly not exclusive to feminism, because both men and women need to love their body shape and image, and young men and male teenagers can and do suffer from ED as well. However, I guess you could say that there are certain circumstances relating to body image issues in women that are closely linked with those matters that concern feminism the most.

German resources
http://derstandard.at/2000033417362/F...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAewL...

That's a difficult question - it depends on what body acceptance entails. (I should probably mention that I'm fat/chubby, so that's where I'm coming from).

I've seen some argue that body acceptance means pretty much telling everyone that they're beautiful 'just as they are'. I'm not sure I think that's a good idea. Not because of aesthetics, but simply because I know that having a body like mine is unhealthy. I'm not sure that we should be normalizing or encouraging unhealthy living in the name of "body acceptance".

That being said, I don't think that it's anyone's place to criticize other people's bodies. One aspect is, of course, that you can't know if their weight is the result of just too much food or if there's something actually wrong (my initial weight gain was the result of medication - but now I just eat too much sugar).
Another aspect is that it's simply not your place to comment on other people's weight without being asked.

That's one thing it seems that skinny and fat people have in common: people assuming that they have the right to comment on their body/food/excercise habits because they're bodies are 'abnormal'.

I'd say that body acceptance is a feminist issue, but only in the sense that our bodies in general shouldn't be fair game for everyone to criticize - whether that means weight, pubic hair, type of clothes, amount of make-up etc..

But then again, body acceptance doesn't have to be about praising someone and saying they're beautiful - even if they're unhealthy. It can simply be to keep your mouth shut unless they ask or it's a life threatening situation (like eating disorders).

I can see your points. I don't think body acceptance is about promoting an unhealthy body image but rather about stoping the fat-shaming because it actually has significant negative effects on people’s psychological health. And that is one reason why people sometimes gain even more weight or re-gain weight.

I am in agreement with everyone's thoughts thus far, but also wanted to point out that thin privilege is only extended to certain kinds of "thin." Many women receive negative attention for being "too skinny" or "boyish," which is harmful on its own but even worse for those whose body types are a result of illness, medical conditions, or other issues.

Then, body image issues are applied to men in a different way as well, and while they are typically under less scrutiny than women, there are still a lot of problems with men being too fat or too skinny.

Not meaning to derail from the specific issue of fatphobia, but I just wanted to point out that thin privilege is not necessarily enjoyed by everyone who falls into the category of thin.

Here's a famous book on that subject:

Heh, this amuses me as a topic for some reason. You can see an overweight person in the gym or on the track, having a healthy body even though there is excess fat on it still, whereas a skinny person might have a size zero body, but look horrific on the inside, no real muscles to mention and lab work that is unhealthy to say the least.

There is fat shaming, there is skinny shaming, there is thigh gap glorification even among women for whom it will be anatomically impossible unless they literally starve themselves to death, and there are huge misconceptions about nutrition, cardio and weight lifting.

And as icing on the cake, we still perceive mental problems as shameful, so a person with overweight, who suffers from various emotional/psychological problems, won't readily seek help. And the cycle continues. I've talked with a bazillion people and when they speak anonymously online, the misery is clear. So many overweight people have experienced lots of hardship, but all of it somehow ends up being their own fault, and they are pigs for eating too much. Society is kind and generous in its treatment of overweight people... And we haven't even talked about how screwed up food pricing is yet, which makes me think ultimately there is someone wishing to keep the fat in their place, low-income and sick and uneducated.

I absolutely agree with Astrid. Being too fat (or too skinny for that matter) is just unhealthy and, if someone directly asks me, he/she won't be hearing me saying "you're perfect just the way you are".

Body acceptance to me is not always thinking you're perfect, but being aware of your body and never be ashamed of how it looks to others.

The problem here is that most of the time people get judged solely on their appearances and suddenly an overweight guy becomes a lazy person that just doesn't want to lose weight and loves desserts too much.

Media also play a major role in spreading "Fatphobia" by imposing an unrealistic and one dimensional standard of beauty.

We should stop judging books by their covers and start getting to know people for who they are and not for who they appear to be.

Adding to my comment (5): I think the body acceptance movement criticizes our idea of what a healthy body looks like. Becuase nowadays a thin body is automatically assumed to be healthy while a fat body is automatically assumed to be unhealthy. A few centuries ago it was the opposite. But in reality we can’t judge someones health just based on how they look. Weight doesn't equal health.

The body acceptance movement also criticizes the diet-culture that cuases real health problems and only benefits capitalism.

Somewhere I cam across this slogan: Self-esteem is bad for the economy. And I think it's true.

Katelyn wrote: "I am in agreement with everyone's thoughts thus far, but also wanted to point out that thin privilege is only extended to certain kinds of "thin." Many women receive negative attention for being "t..."

I agree. Unfortunately body shaming is a real problem. Almost every body can be shamed. No body is immune to body shaming.

I already pointed out that I also feel shame for being skinny. Becuase it lead me to question my femininity, which is (let me tell you) no fun as a cisgender women.

But I think that our society over all values thin bodies over fat bodies.

This video is very interesting: "Is skinny-shaming a thing?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89BYM...
She argues that skinny-shaming is not okay, but it's not equal to fat-shaming. Because our society at large praises skinny people. But fat-shaming is oppressive at a structural level because of housing- and job-discrimination.

Dario wrote: "I absolutely agree with Astrid. Being too fat (or too skinny for that matter) is just unhealthy and, if someone directly asks me, he/she won't be hearing me saying "you're perfect just the way you ..."
I agree with your points Dario...this has been an issue I've been thinking about a lot lately (I'm not really sure why), as I don't think that it's fair or acceptable for people to be mocked or made to feel terrible because of how they look, but on the flip side there are a lot of health risks associated with being seriously over or underweight.
I too refuse to think it's acceptable to send a message that it's ok to be any particular size: I don't think that is healthy.

But I have been struggling to try and wrap my head around how best to convey a responsible message about what is healthy.

I suspect you're right and the mainstream media have a lot to answer for on this issue.

Dario wrote: "Body acceptance to me is not always thinking you're perfect, but being aware of your body and never be ashamed of how it looks to others."

I don't entirely agree with that. If we have struggled and as a result gained weight (a little or a lot), feeling ashamed can be used to drive change. We don't have to accept crap from others, but if we feel shame, we feel shame, and it's just a feeling among the rest of them. No need to make it into anything bigger than it is (same as feeling anger, it's perfectly natural and not to be stifled in any way).

What happens next, however, is the crucial part. If we feel shame about our body, but decide not to do anything, be it sorting out our problems on our own or seeking help for the process, then it's a sad situation. If we are happy at our new weight, there is no problem.

Katie wrote: "Dario wrote: "I absolutely agree with Astrid. Being too fat (or too skinny for that matter) is just unhealthy and, if someone directly asks me, he/she won't be hearing me saying "you're perfect just the way you ..."
I agree with your points Dario...this has been an issue I've been thinking about a lot lately (I'm not really sure why), as I don't think that it's fair or acceptable for people to be mocked or made to feel terrible because of how they look, but on the flip side there are a lot of health risks associated with being seriously over or underweight.
I too refuse to think it's acceptable to send a message that it's ok to be any particular size: I don't think that is healthy.

But I have been struggling to try and wrap my head around how best to convey a responsible message about what is healthy.

I suspect you're right and the mainstream media have a lot to answer for on this issue."

Unless you are a parent directly responsible for teaching your child(ren) healthy habits, I don't think it's any of your business to meddle in the affairs of others, including their health. If you're asked for opinions and advice (provided you have actual insight into nutrition, medicine and psychology), feel free to respond in a respectful manner, but unsolicited advice is something I personally would steer clear of.

It is okay to be whatever size one chooses to be. Nobody has any business telling others what size they should have. Not even healthcare professionals can do anything but be there for a patient when they decide it is time for change. Of course they can broach the subject gently, but anything else is a no-go in my opinion. Cornering overweight people, who might be ready at some point to tackle everything that a lifestyle change encompasses, will shut down as long as they aren't open for change, and the only thing you will achieve by telling them how they should live their life is to have them walk away. I doubt that is what you desire?

The only thing you can do is to be an example, without shoving your health message down the throats of others. Fundamentalist health people are as annoying as fundamentalist religious people.

Dianna, thanks for mentioning Jessamyn Stanley, her Instagram feed is fantastic.
And Mirna Valerio is just marvellous, too.

These are examples of what I referred to in my message 8 above.

Skinny fat is an actual thing, and when we look at many thin people, they really aren't that healthy, even though their body size might insinuate otherwise.

What we should look at is body fat percentage (rather than the ridiculously flawed BMI) and the mirror, even though all these measures are somehow lacking. I realise not everyone likes bodyweight training or lifting weights, but then there's Pilates and yoga to sculpt lean yet strong muscles and to increase balance, joint strength and flexibility in general.

And once again, also like Dianna said, a fat person can be far healthier than an average-sized or slim person. This is the message most worthy of being spread.

Finally, people should look into muscle anatomy and physiology, their density to be more precise. Muscle tissue weighs more per volume than fatty tissue, meaning when you get slimmer by becoming more fit and strong, your body size might decrease whilst the scale goes up. I hate the scale, it is the worst offender of them all.

Dianna wrote: "As has been pointed out, physical size/weight and healthy habits (exercise and nutrition) are not always directly correlated. It's been mentioned in this thread in reference to "thin privilege" whe..."

Thanks Dianna. I followed them immediately.

Aglaea wrote: "I don't entirely agree with that. If we hav..."

Aglaea that was actually my point. Probably it wasn't very clear. I said you don't have to be ashamed of how you look to others, not never be ashamed of yourself.

If you're overweight and ok with it, it's absolutely fine. But you don't have to be influenced by how that is perceived by others and change who you are just because someone embarassed you.

That's body acceptance to me, be always proud of whatever makes you feel good and happy. Hope it's clearer now.

Dario wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "I don't entirely agree with that. If we hav..."

Aglaea that was actually my point. Probably it wasn't very clear. I said you don't have to be ashamed of how you look to others, not ..."

Oh, yes, funny how stuff can be read so differently from how it was intended :) Oh well, glad we agree.

I know a lot of countries have universal healthcare and one could argue that the health of an individual ultimately affects the cost of healthcare to society, but I'm somewhat skeptical that the appearance of health is the root issue. Maybe someone more articulate and better read than myself could talk about fat-shaming (thigh gap and all) as a form of social control that punishes women—of most sizes/shapes, when it comes down to it—for taking up space in this world and for being imperfect subject matter to satisfy the male gaze.

Apropos this discussion, Wentworth Miller posted this yesterday: https://www.facebook.com/wentworthmil...

When women have more power in society then they are under less pressure to trade on their appearance in order to survive. This helps to untangle a lot of mess about feeling pressured to look a certain way, and allows people to start letting their bodies be for the person who lives in the body, instead of tickets to ride the I get to eat today ride.

Astrid wrote: "Apropos this discussion, Wentworth Miller posted this yesterday: https://www.facebook.com/wentworthmil......"

Yes, celebrities routinely face harsh, strict, and very public body shaming. I remember writing a paper 20 years ago critical of tabloids' fat-shaming of Tom Hanks, and now the Internet has made it easy for anyone to publicly shame any other person.

But Mr. Miller's post highlights another thing that unsettles me whenever I hear an "honesty policy" espoused with regard to another person's body. Someone struggling or dissatisfied with their weight may be lacking confidence, a sense of fulfillment, or hope itself. It is unlikely to be helpful for them to be told that they should lose weight; that will only reinforce their existing fear, shame, or despair. They need to know that they have intrinsic value regardless of their size and, if appropriate given my relationship with them, offered the emotional support to attain whatever goals they may have—and if losing weight isn't one of them, then it isn't my business to make it so. Emotional health is critical, if not prerequisite, to achieving physical health, so if I really want to help someone, I need to start from a place of compassion, not judgment.

The whole fat=unhealthy thing is such a nonsensical excuse for unwarranted body policing anyway. Unless you are in a relationship with the person in question or are their doctor, then you don't know why they have a body size that is outside the usual range either on the upper or lower end. Since you don't know, its best to just park the judgments and be kind.

I was listening to an interview earlier this week on Fresh Air with a former heroin addict, Good interview, very interesting. One thing that made me roll my eyes pretty hard was she actually had people telling her it was such a pity that she put on weight after she kicked, and she looked so good when she was using. Seriously? Yeah, no a heroin addict doesn't look good when she's using, and if people are actually thinking its better to be addicted to opiates than chubby, there is something very very wrong with those priorities.

The week before I was reading an article about a distance runner who gets criticism because people think she looks too heavy and muscular. Again, seriously? This is not sensible. Just isn't. Popular culture has a really seriously skewed image of what healthy looks like. Also a really seriously skewed notion of what is and is not anyone else's business!

Bunny wrote: "The whole fat=unhealthy thing is such a nonsensical excuse for unwarranted body policing anyway. Unless you are in a relationship with the person in question or are their doctor, then you don't kno..."

Lol what? A heroin addict should stay addicted to avoid unappealing weight gain? Wow. There really is no limit to how much of an asshole a person can be.

In regards to athletes, I adore muscles for how they look and what they allow us to do. Muscles rock. We were meant to be agile and strong, not couch potatoes.

I know someone else whose mother HER MOTHER!! told her not to quit smoking because she'd just gain weight. Uh....

Bunny wrote: "I know someone else whose mother HER MOTHER!! told her not to quit smoking because she'd just gain weight. Uh...."

I guess she hasn't seen enough COPD cases then...

I totally agree, CluckingBell.

Bunny and Aglaea: that's shocking. It really shows what's wrong with our society.

CluckingBell wrote: "But Mr. Miller's post highlights another thing that unsettles me whenever I hear an "honesty policy" espoused with regard to another person's body. Someone struggling or dissatisfied with their weight may be lacking confidence, a sense of fulfillment, or hope itself. It is unlikely to be helpful for them to be told that they should lose weight; that will only reinforce their existing fear, shame, or despair. They need to know that they have intrinsic value regardless of their size and, if appropriate given my relationship with them, offered the emotional support to attain whatever goals they may have—and if losing weight isn't one of them, then it isn't my business to make it so. Emotional health is critical, if not prerequisite, to achieving physical health, so if I really want to help someone, I need to start from a place of compassion, not judgment. "

This holds true in some cases, whereas in others the person responds best to tough love. Say you would like a personal trainer to support you through the journey, you'd have to be aware of your own style and to ask for it when signing up. I can't stand the drill-sergeant type of training, so for me it'd be about getting stuck in square one forever, but other people I know prefer the more brutal style.

Aglaea wrote: "This holds true in some cases, whereas in others the person responds best to tough love. Say you would like a personal trainer to support you through the journey, you'd have to be aware of your own style and to ask for it when signing up...."

Getting "tough love" from a personal trainer is a lot different from receiving it from someone I'm in a personal relationship with and normally turn to for support and comfort—especially if it's unsolicited. Having "ask[ed] for it" is really the key in those situations. Similarly to BDSM relationships, tough love must be consensual, and boundaries should be discussed in advance (e.g., Hypothetical Me may not want the tough love relationship with my personal trainer to extend to casual encounters at the library or grocery store). But if Hypothetical Me simply expresses an insecurity to a loved one, seeking validation of my self-worth rather than my worst feelings about myself, and they immediately jump into harsh criticism about my weight, that would only make things worse.

Also a lot of the common understandings about body size, weight, dieting, etc are just wrong. So that's another reason to keep one's opinions about someone else's shape to oneself. Because they are very likely to be ill informed.

I don't think its just about fat shaming, because as some people have already pointed out, thin people get judged and shamed too. Yes, fat people get policed and hassled about their body shape more than thin people do but we all get pressured to conform to unrealistic standards and treated as if we had some sort of sign on our foreheads inviting public commentary.

On our size, on our style, on whether we are smiling enough, on how our voices sound, on whether that skirt is too short or too long or too bright or not bright enough, on whether we are wearing too much makeup or not enough makeup, whether we should be in this place at all, and on and on. Surely you are too old to be wearing your hair that long, surely you are too young for that shade of lipstick, clearly you don't exercise enough and are lazy, you on the other hand probably exercise too much and are vain. Yeah park it, people. Not public property, not inviting public comment today, thanks.

This is such an important topic but such an exhausting one. I can remember the exact moment I began thinking about whether or not I was fat - I was nine and wearing a brand new pair of pink capris and a white shirt. I remember looking in the mirror and thinking I wasn't good enough. Thin, fat - regardless of appearance we are constantly told we are not enough. Not thin enough. Not curvy enough. Not stylish enough. We are confronted every day with unrealistic expectations that perpetuate a culture of self loathing. I can be quick to judge others, to value somebody based on their opinions. And that is only exacerbated by the media & entertainment industry. It makes me sad and weary and every day I remind myself that I am enough. We all are.

On another note, I find the cultural dialogue around weight gain particularly frustrating because it places so much emphasis on the individual rather than systemic cultural issues. Our food system in America is broken and there are a lot more factors contributing to weight gain than just individual "diet and exercise." Sometimes it feels like we are fighting a losing battle doesn't it?

CluckingBell wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "This holds true in some cases, whereas in others the person responds best to tough love. Say you would like a personal trainer to support you through the journey, you'd have to be aw..."

Oh, of course! I just wanted to expand on the sidetrack for discussion purposes, since people are very different. I completely agree with your whole response in message 33, and your needs should definitely be respected.

In another relationship tough love will work, meaning a partner could shake into awareness the other by saying something like "Honey, you need to get a grip, have you looked at all in the mirror lately? You're getting fat." and it will be exactly what they needed to hear. Tough love in that relationship isn't criticism per se either, but simply awakening the other from their mental slumber.

Partners need to be compatible and understand each other, which obviously means we have to know ourselves first.

I think there might be a misunderstanding about the "honesty policy" as CluckingBell called it.

When I say that I believe in being honest, I'm not talking about walking around telling anyone and everyone what I think about their weight. I think everyone here agrees that it's not anyone's place to give out unsolicited advice or opinions about other people.

But there's a world of difference between shaming someone's body type and just being aware that my body is unhealthy, so if I ask someone about it, I can't expect to be told a lie.

I'm 30 kgs overweight - all of it fat - and if someone tells me I don't need to lose weight and I'm beautiful as I am, they're lying.

I've been thinking a lot about fatphobia in the last weeks and how it is so normal to state: "I feel so fat", "Do I look fat?" etc. The people whom I have heard saying these type of phrases (including myself) are never overweight. I think that we have as a society (in Germany) become very critical of the body. We often associate 'fat' with something negative even though as Dianna showed, there are women who are what is considered to be overweight and healthy. It is normal that being fat is often equated with unhealthy even though this does not have to be the case.

I used to think that it is okay to tell people if I think they are too unhealthy due to being fat. However, I came across this comic a few weeks ago and it has competely changed my perspective. Stop Shaming People By Comparing Being Fat to Smoking – Here’s the Difference

Reading about fatphobia and acknowledging that I still judge people based on their body size actually made it more easier for me to also accept my thighs and to accept that healthy people have different types of bodies and that not all have to be good at the same type of sport etc. You never know why a person is underweight or overweight, and we shouldn't judge on how healthy they are based on their size.

Astrid, you can be beautiful and I'm sure you are, but there's room for improvement :) At your own time, though. Btw, I'm in your boat. Lifestyle change is hard and requires lots of patience, which is why it saddens me how people can be so judgmental of the fat but very fit among us. They have been on the health journey for a long time already, and have improved their bodies and minds for god knows how long, yet others still have it in them to try to bring down instead of lift up.

I've been following Jessamyn on IG forever and her sassy self-respect combined with brutal honesty about her shortcomings is refreshing. She's the real deal and shows no facade. I think her kind of approach to life is rather uncommon still, and a reason for people feeling shame and lots of other things, because if someone were to tell us we're fat, the best, healthy reaction would be to tell them to just fuck off, but as long as people keep taking the words to heart, it insinuates many things about their sense of self-worth.

In regards to the last sentence of my first paragraph, I think it serves us all to recall that anyone, who has it in them to judge strangers openly like that really isn't a very balanced person. They truly need to hurt others to hurt less inside, and when we think about it some more, it is rather sad. When we manage to step outside of the initial reaction of possible hurt, and rise above with this kind of rational thinking, it should become easier each time to shake the rude words off.

Dianna wrote: "One of my favorite Anne Lamott quotes:

“Oh my God, what if you wake up some day, and you’re 65, or 75, and you never got your memoir or your novel written; or you didn’t go swimming in warm pools and oceans all those years because your thighs were jiggly and you had a nice big comfortable tummy; or you were just so strung out on perfectionism and people pleasing that you forgot to have a big juicy creative life, of imagination and radical silliness and staring off into space when you were a kid? It’s going to break your heart. Don’t let this happen.” ~ Anne Lamott"

That's a good one. I call it self-editing or self-censorship, that thing we do when we find reasons *not* to do something, even though we'd love to deep inside. Taking leaps of faith and walking outside of the comfort zone requires courage, but becomes easier with time.

I think we need to be careful when we say that thin people get shamed for their bodies, too.

While it's true, it sounds an awful lot like the "not all men" arguments. In both cases, you're technically right (not all men rape, even skinny people get body shamed) but by talking about that you're taking away from the bigger problem (some men do rape and many men stand by and let a patriarchal society victim blame, fat people are body shamed much more harshly and frequently than skinny people).

I feel like thin shaming is primarily about body acceptance and not policing women's bodies in general. Fat shaming tends to be done rather harshly and on a whole other level. It's not just body acceptance and policing women's bodies, but acceptance of the entire person.

I get regular negative comments about how I shouldn't workout or eat healthy, which I quite enjoy, because I'm already skinny and it's assumed that the only reason a woman would want to be physically fit is to look good. If you've already achieved that you must be vain, have an unhealthy body image, etc. I think that falls into policing women in general.

Fat shaming is a whole other level. It's the assumption that fitness is required to prove that you're a capable, hardworking person. While some comments of thin shaming attribute negative values to a person based on their size, we primarily get treated as having our shit together in contexts outside of weight. Fat shaming is the notion that a person who has fat primarily doesn't have their shit together in contexts outside of weight. Both of which of course is not true. I think I saw a study once that fat discrimination can be tied to a difference in wages. It's stuff thin people simply don't have to deal with.

I agree that skinny-shaming is a different issue. this thread was originally about fatphobia and thin privilege. we already know that privilege doesn't always mean that your life is good and easy. a white person can be poor, for example. a gay man can experience discrimination. but the privilege is still there, it's also issues like representation, access and comfort, things costing more (plus-sized clothes, having to buy two seats etc), doctors dismissing many health concerns as inherent to your body [size]. there's some overlap with able-bodied privilege.

i'd appreciate if thin people didn't make it about them. if there's no separate thread about skinny-shaming, go ahead and start it.

also, it's important to keep beauty and health separate. telling a fat person that you consider them beautiful doesn't mean that they are healthy. generally we are not the ones to judge. and not all ways of losing weight are healthy.

perhaps the main thing here is to realize that all fat people are already exposed to a lot of messages about weight, body size etc. why would any fat person not know that they should do their best to exercise and watch what they eat? most of them have been on a diet before, in fact nowadays many 10 year-olds already have! don't assume that you know better than someone else, don't assume that they aren't already doing the best to be healthy (and possibly to lose weight), don't assume they have the same opportunities as you or someone you know. (taking care of your health requires time and money)

Marina wrote: "I agree that skinny-shaming is a different issue. this thread was originally about fatphobia and thin privilege. we already know that privilege doesn't always mean that your life is good and easy. ..."

You bring up a good point when you say that being privileged doesn't mean you're life is good and easy. Thin people may have issues, but there is still an inherent privilege to not having to deal with fatphobia on a daily basis.

I say this as someone who has been fat (~175 pounds with no muscle in my early twenties) and has been thin (~130 pounds with significant muscle in my late twenties)...in both cases, people had things to say, but the disgust and dismissiveness people said it with was much more severe as a fat person.

and here's an article about how the sports wear is different and how body-shaming and fatphobia are affecting women's workouts. https://thespanofmyhips.wordpress.com...
(not sure if it's been posted in this group before)

My original intent with my post about body acceptance was in response to the use of the phrase body acceptance by the OP. It was just to point out that if we want to discuss the broader issue of that and all that comes with it, just a reminder that there are a lot of ways that a woman's (or man's) body can be considered wrong by society.

Didn't mean to derail from the focus on fatphobia!

Katelyn wrote: "My original intent with my post about body acceptance was in response to the use of the phrase body acceptance by the OP. It was just to point out that if we want to discuss the broader issue of th..."

I would like to discuss the broader issue. If a new thread is required to do that I am happy to start one. I am fat, and I am also healthy and comfortable with my body. It has taken me a lot of years to get here, and in the process I feel like I have found a lot of common cause with other women of different body sizes and shapes because I think we are all being policed and shamed and encouraged to self hate, and that its a great big shell game with no winners. So I will go start another thread and come back and post a link for it shortly.

Okay here it is, if anyone would like to join me to talk about the wider issues they are very welcome here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Marina wrote: "and here's an article about how the sports wear is different and how body-shaming and fatphobia are affecting women's workouts. https://thespanofmyhips.wordpress.com...-..."

I enjoyed this post. It's a good point that tight clothing as the only option is a part of fat shaming. The ubiquity of tight clothing choices makes otherwise fit women feel like they shouldn't have areas of fat on them.

Astrid wrote: "I think there might be a misunderstanding about the "honesty policy" as CluckingBell called it...."

And I didn't mean to call anyone out specifically, or imply that anyone in this thread seeks opportunities to belittle their friends. It's just that in the U.S., we have a lot of people (not least of all reality show subjects) who will justify any litany of verbal abuse with some variation of "I'm just being honest," a transparent attempt to turn cruelty into virtue. "Honesty" is also a fallback technique used by abusers to keep their partners in line: "Who will tell you this about yourself if not me?"

As there are few more aware of or more critical of a body than its owner, someone asking a question they already know the answer to is outside my own experience. I have never done it, and I have never had anyone ask it of me. Which obviously does not mean it does not happen, only that my mind automatically jumps to more sinister applications of honesty—and perhaps less sinister, but also potentially destructive. Did the individual really ask about their own body, or did they ask about their failed relationships and I began opining on how their body may be affecting their prospects?

Again, I don't wish to suggest that anyone commenting in or even reading this thread has done these things. I only mean to reaffirm that we should seriously consider the effects of our words on the receiver before transmitting our wisdom.

Kristina wrote: "Marina wrote: "and here's an article about how the sports wear is different and how body-shaming and fatphobia are affecting women's workouts. https://thespanofmyhips.wordpress.com......"

Wow that's such a good point, about tight clothing making us feel more fat than we are! Men's clothing is indeed more "accepting" of fat, now that I think of it.

Marina wrote: "most of them have been on a diet before,"

That is why they are yoyoing still or bing constantly fat. Because they/we haven't learned a permanently healthy lifestyle. It is easy to revert to old habits once a target weight has been reached and/or something happens to rock the boat, but if we go back to the old habits, I dare say they were never made a normal part of the new lifestyle. Which is why it is even more ridiculous to have skinny fat people shame fat people - because the skinny fat people have as shitty habits, they just eat a bit less compared to the fat people. Roughly put. An all-encompassing lifestyle change with the whole works, would change a skinny fat person to one built of muscle and with considerably lower body fat percentage.

"taking care of your health requires time and money
Yes, but often it is a question of minimum input aka start with what we have. We can use clothing that we already own, then upgrade once the ball is rolling. We can start watching portion sizes and drink more water even though we wouldn't make dramatic changes to meals in other ways. Start small.

The lifestyle change is demanding enough as it is and going all in is what makes most people stop after a week or two, since we burned the candle from both ends in an explosive way. It just seems more appealing to do quick fixes, but what took years to be put on, will take at least a year if not more to get off again in a healthy manner. This is why I can't stand fitness magazines with "lose twenty pounds in one night while you are sleeping" articles. They suck and should burn painfully in some special hell.

Patience is key, but increasingly hard to maintain when we want it all right here right now. And for thin people to (choose to) forget that, when they spew their hatred is beyond my comprehension. Numerous fat people have shared stories of thin people shaming them IN THE GYM. Go fuck yourself. And grow up.

Kristina wrote: "get regular negative comments about how I shouldn't workout or eat healthy, which I quite enjoy, because I'm already skinny and it's assumed that the only reason a woman would want to be physically fit is to look good. If you've already achieved that you must be vain, have an unhealthy body image, etc. I think that falls into policing women in general."

There really is no limit to how stupid people are. Did they think that because you reached your target weight you will never have to do anything ever again to maintain? It is moronic.

I'm fat. I know it. I accept it and all the consequences that come with it, which can include things like diabetes, bad knees, shortness of Breath, etc. For me, the is what body acceptance is. Me accepting me. I may have been body shamed in the past. I don't know. I wasn't really part of the female hierarchical social structures that were in place when I was a kid. So, even if there were comments I ignored them. Personally, I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it's about another person. I'm not going to try to change that. The only aspect I will try to change is how I react to it.

Jessica wrote: "Personally, I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it's about another person. I'm not going to try to change that. The only aspect I will try to change is how I react to it."

Do you feel people have a responsibility of how their words come out? Should others make efforts to spare your feelings a bit, perhaps make sure you don't lose your face, or is anything and everything fair game in this world of having opinions? Should people edit what comes out of their mouths to begin with, or is it okay to share whatever opinion one might have about a complete stranger with said stranger? Do we have some kind of obligations in relation to others, or can we say and do whatever we like?

That (the second half of the last sentence) to me would be taking many steps backwards. Of course we have a responsibility of how we react to things and should claim ownership of becoming stronger people, but I personally think also others have some kind of responsibility towards me.

My example of shaming a fat person already in the gym is hitting someone already down on their knees. It's playing ugly without honour, and that is repulsive in my book.