World, Writing, Wealth discussion

The successful combination of 'entertaining' and 'thought-provoking' book is probably ideal, but I'm not sure it works for any genre.
I don't know whether it's only me with these dilemmas or maybe some other authors experience something similar as well.
To me writing something just for sheer entertainment is a bit 'boring'. I usually seek to add some 'philosophical' edge to it too. In a thriller genre this often would be a disadvantage, considered 'info dump' and slowing the pace, which is crucial for 'hard-boiled' literature. Yet, I'm reluctant in 'letting it go', because then from my point of view the books would lack 'the message'. I'm even considering going with two versions for an upcoming book: 'unabridged' with the full version and 'light', the latter without philosophical gobbledygook -:)
What do you think?

If you ask me, I always like a philosophical bent to anything I read or write. Without it I feel that a book has lost purpose.

Mehreen wrote: "If you ask me, I always like a philosophical bent to anything I read or write. Without it I feel that a book has lost purpose."

Glad to see, I'm not alone on this one... -:)

I also try to put something for people to think about in my novels, but I think it is important to ensure that the reader has to look for it. The worst thing you can have is "preaching". Maybe my messages will bypass most readers, but that is as it is.

I think the idea of two versions, one "light", is not a good idea. People will turn away from the main book because they think it will be too "heavy", and turn away from the other version because they will think it is something like a Reader's Digest condensed book.

@Ian. Literature has two functions. To entertain and to teach. How ever having said that didactic literature is not something that people would like to read. They read for pleasure and learn as they do so. Readers never like to be told.

Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress was didactic, but that became classic in spite of it, although not popular.

Mehreen wrote: "@Ian. Literature has two functions. To entertain and to teach. How ever having said that didactic literature is not something that people would like to read. They read for pleasure and learn as the..."

Or maybe even 3 functions: inform, educate, entertain, like BBC's motto -:)
Teach, educate - yes, but rather in indirect manner I think, because of what you and Ian mention

Ian wrote: "I think the idea of two versions, one "light", is not a good idea. People will turn away from the main book because they think it will be too "heavy", and turn away from the other version because they will think it is something like a Reader's Digest condensed book...."

That's surely a plausible way the people might think and skip the book for the mentioned reasons.. Haven't decided yet... If doing so, I shouldn't probably make a point out of it or stress it in any way. I might go with the full version and see how it is perceived. I was thinking that I can probably even classify the two versions differently on Amazon genre and sub-genre categories, so it would turn to different audiences... Can it work in your opinion?

My view is it is still better to have only one version. Perhaps a bit of editing might help?

To illustrate what I mean, what I try to do in my novels is to promote the idea of using reason, but I do that not by characters telling this and that, but by them showing the better outcomes. Thus the characters that "win" a struggle do so by working out a logical approach to the problem and persisting. I try to keep "dumb luck" and coincidence out of it altogether. Then with the political economic themes, again I never try to show that something is good, but merely try and show flaws in what others might think is good, as villains take advantage of those flaws. In other words, the informing must be done by show, not tell. (I am quite happy to have a bit of tell here and there, but merely to cover ground in the plot.)

The challenge is to write a really good story, and fit in some of the other stuff as imperceptibly as possible. My view, anyway.

Ian wrote: "The challenge is to write a really good story, and fit in some of the other stuff as imperceptibly as possible."

A sound approach, no doubt

Nik wrote: "The successful combination of 'entertaining' and 'thought-provoking' book is probably ideal, but I'm not sure it works for any genre.
I don't know whether it's only me with these dilemmas or maybe ..."

Nik, I have the same problem. When my last book was published I joined Goodreads hoping I could promote it. It happens that the majority of groups here fall into the genre fiction category. I keep struggling with the idea of fitting my book into a genre, because it always seems inappropriate for any genre. I prefer the slow-paced thought-provoking book rather than the solely entertainment story. And I can't create novels different from those I like.

Nor should you try, Alexandre. You have to be true to yourself, or you write pap. At least I can't write other than what I believe in.

Alexandre wrote: "I keep struggling with the idea of fitting my book into a genre, because it always seems inappropriate for any genre. I prefer the slow-paced thought-provoking book rather than the solely entertainment story...."

Hi Alexandre, Oi, Bon dia,

Welcome to the group! I also don't think you should necessarily limit your book's outreach to a specific genre. And even if it perfectly fitted into some genre, it would be still hard to promote, as it's just generally hard to sell and promote books these days -:). You can join probably quite a few genre groups and offer something less mainstream for that specific group. I'm not a Leo Tolstoy or anything close to that level to give a valuable advice on a writing process, but I think you have a sound approach in writing books you believe in and offering some extras beyond the entertainment per se. If you struggle with choosing the genre you can probably safely assume that you don't offer a 'commercial fiction' -:). With all new genres appearing lately, I'm not sure the readers and ignorant writers like me, can even discern what is what nowadays. Although I've joined some new adult group, I don't really know what it implies even -:). And manga and much more stuff is quite a mystery to me. Not that I'm proud of my ignorance that much and I intend to cope with all the nuances someday.
I took a look at the book that you have here on GR and it sounds appealing and based on interesting premises. By the way, I think Ian also deals with scarce natural resources supply in one of his books, although probably in a quite different context.
Anyway, good luck with promoting the book and hope you enjoy and contribute to this group

Nik wrote: "Alexandre wrote: "I keep struggling with the idea of fitting my book into a genre, because it always seems inappropriate for any genre. I prefer the slow-paced thought-provoking book rather than th..."

Hi Nik. Thank you for sharing, and thank you for the welcome. I will definitely add Ian's book to my list. Could you post it here?

Just commenting on 'commercial fiction'; I have recently read the best-seller "The Martian", and I thought 'man, the author could really have better explored the character. Alone in Mars, writing a diary, there would be plenty of things to think and reflect...". But if it were written in this way it would possibly not be a best-seller.

I prefer slow-paced thought provoking books too with some degree of 'literariness' lacking in many modern books these days. That's why classics make more sense in fitting into the genre of literary fiction.

Alexandre wrote: "I will definitely add Ian's book to my list. Could you post it here?

Just commenting on 'commercial fiction'; I have recently read the best-seller "The Martian"....."

I don't remember which one, but I'm sure Ian would gladly help and provide the right link....
As of The Martian it was also 'per aspera ad astra', as I remember somebody told me. Just looked it up on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mar... and yes: Weir was rebuffed by lit. agents, when he tried a trad publishing route. And back in 2011 there were nowhere near as many titles on Amazon as there are now...
I don't think it's possible in such a subtle industry as art, be it writing, painting, music or just anything, to know what would sell upfront, nor I think it's possible for the artist to pre-design his/her work to be able to tell for sure that it will sell in thousands... Yet there are sort of formats of mainstream commercial fiction that prima facia have broader appeal to the fans of that specifc genre and clearer sales prospects than something a little more sophisticated or unusual....

Alexandre, or anyone else, for that matter, who wants to see what my books are should go to http://www.ianmiller.co.nz It is the "First Contact" trilogy that explores the political/economic aspects the most - and spends more time on my "Made-up governance". Most of them have different forms of governance, or, as in the case of "Troubles", anarchy and no governance.

As for "The Martian" I bought it and gave it a good review long before it became famous. In those days, if you picked a topic like "Science Fiction" on Amazon ebooks, you got about 4 pages! Apparently, it went viral, and we now know Weir has done very well with ONE book! I put my first Mars-related book on Amazon some time later (can't recall) and by then there were about 20 odd pages, and being at the bottom (no sales yet) that did not take off :-(

I agree with Nik - there is no way to know what will sell, but in some ways Weir's book was easier on the general population because there was only ONE problem - how to survive on Mars. As an aside, I found several things wrong with it (but only mentioned one) but I doubt most others did. Perhaps themes puzzling is why would NASA send a botanist to Mars? It is not exactly overflowing with plant life!

Thank you for the input Ian! And nice website, by the way.

Still on the current topic, have you ever read "The Story Grid"? I think it perfectly fits our discussion. There's a graphic about sales number and type of novel. The more introspective the novel the less it will sale. And the more action it has the more it will sale.

Google "The Story Bell Curve".

Makes sense. That is what made the sale of Harry Potter astronomical!

Thanks, Alexandre, for the comment about the website. I am going to restructure it some day (when I get around to it) but it is good to know it isn't totally pressing.

No, I haven't heard of "The Story Grid". For what it is worth, I try to keep up a good lot of action. However, I also feel it has to fit either into a groove, or be lucky and enter new territory that readers want. Harry Potter is a great example of the last one. But new territory may simply turn people off if it doesn't work.

Introspective fiction, which I write definitely has a place, although it may not pander to the tastes of the majority of the readers. Having said so, I would like to emphasise that people's likings can change and swing to the opposite direction. It can get pretty tiresome after a while reading the same stuff all the time - action or no action.

I wish it was that simple - the more action the more sales. I'd argue that the first hurdle is visibility. Apart from those authors, who are present in physical book stores, our titles sit in a huge virtual hanger with millions of other titles. It doesn't do much to have a title on 4-5-th and more page of any search result on Amazon, of genre category, etc, as it's probably similar to the Google search results: everybody gets to see the first page, few would look at the 2-nd, very few at the third and virtually no one would go any further.
There are certainly fans of action and there are fans of introspective and there are fans of 'unusual' (called book club today?), the task is to get in front of their eyes and once there to look attractive enough (cover, first couple of pages, author's bio, blurb) to tilt the scales towards buying during those few secs/mins that is 'the moment of truth' when the buyer decides to click a purchase button or not...

Nik, I think most of us eventually see the problem; it is the solution that eludes the likes of me :-)

Nik wrote: "I wish it was that simple - the more action the more sales. I'd argue that the first hurdle is visibility."

then part of the answer is social media. i just checked out a new book, The Business of Being Social 2nd Edition: A practical guide to harnessing the power of Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube and other social media networks for all businesses, from the library to compare against Platform: Get Noticed in a Noisy World.

w/the large brick-and-mortar book stores going out of business and the introduction of social media--as opposed to simply a website or even blogging--the traditional media/advertising outlets have reduced importance. the big publishers reserved shelf space, advertised heavily, and worked w/major book reviewers and columnists at major media outlets. now anyone can be a book reviewer and some can become quite popular.

in Hyatt's book, so far the two biggest ideas--which by no means has he invented, nor does he take credit for--are the online media toolkit and getting endorsements from the experts in your product's area. they are still ideas that the major publishers have used but--at least in the first case-modified for social media.

No definitive solution, I afraid -:)
Ensure presence on the Web through bloggers/fellow authors interviews/any possible venue and probably paid advirtising, I guess. I haven't done any so far, so I can't talk from experience, but I do notice that each time I announce .99 sale through different groups here on GR, some actually go and buy.
If I produced canned tuna, for example, I'd probably also need a bit of publicity -:)
Once having few titles available for sale I should probably try to check what if anything works....

When I typed travel books on amazon, I didn't find Gulliver's Travels. But I did find Mark Twain. Does that mean Jonathan Swift has sold less copies?

.... and social media, as Alex suggests, and advirtising through social media probably...
Some authors do report back that it works to a certain degree

Mehreen wrote: "When I typed travel books on amazon, I didn't find Gulliver's Travels. But I did find Mark Twain. Does that mean Jonathan Swift has sold less copies?"

In his case not necessarily, as his book is known enough to come look for it specifically... But for less known dudes failing to be present on their major categories could mean less sales...

Hahaha. "Less dudes" are children of the lessor god, Nick. They don't count. But adverts, interviews, facebooks twitter postings do count to a certain degree. Also, get friends to promote you, to spread your name around. I think, that works better than self-promotion. In this industry, it is not what you think of your ability but often what others think of you. Hence, high profile reviews and awards and so on and so forth.

Mehreen wrote: "Hahaha. "Less dudes" are children of the lessor god, Nick. They don't count. But adverts, interviews, facebooks twitter postings do count to a certain degree. Also, get friends to promote you, to s..."

Yep, easier said than done, but I'm working on it -:)
I'm for proactive approach anyway (says the bloke who has no twitter even -:))

Good Luck! Send me a friend request on facebook and follow me on twitter MehreenAhmed2

With pleasure (on twitter account - as soon as I open it)

As an added thought, in my case there is no statistical correlation between sales and Facebook postings, nor clearly for interviews. The problem with these sort of things is you need the postings to go to your target audience, so there has to be a connection. If your target audience is not wildly into things like Facebook, you have a problem.

I can't say for sure if I've sold any copies through Facebook. I might have sold a few. But I have heard that once a writer was able to sell 30,000 copies using such platforms for one of his titles. For his next title though he sold zero copies.

Wow... there seems to be no formula. You just need to be in the right place at the right time. I'm trying to promote my book through it's facebook page (promoting the shop now button). Some people clicked, but none bought it. I'm feeling this is sort of a slot machine.

Likes do not interpret into purchase necessarily. That's something we need to clearly understand.

Mehreen wrote: " Likes do not interpret into purchase necessarily."

Totally agree. Extending that: a Follower does not a purchaser make.

ian wrote: "... You need The postings to go to your target audience"

Totally agree. Interestingly, the book on marketing I'm reading right now, Platform, says that you should only tweet and blog on your themes to build a brand.

You'd expect some sales from advertising here on GR, after all they boast what? 50mil active or passive members, who come to a site dedicated to books? But what I hear so far from fellow authors, the click rate is very low and the sales accordingly....
Out of 50 could it be 49M authors and 1M readers? -:)

I placed and advertisement on Goodreads for my book. It cost $50 to set up. GR collected this money up front. I changed the ad three times trying to get a better response. I shut down the ad, while I contemplate a better tag line. I have excellent reviews on Amazon and a lot of fans (which I appreciate greatly). I have read that one click in a thousand placements is good. I didn't get that. They say you can get your money back. The results are:

Status ended on January 17 2016
Start at 2016-01-15 (edit)
End at 2016-01-17 (edit)
Remaining credit $50.00
Daily cap $5.00 (edit)
total credit purchased $50.00 transactions
Total views 5,624
Total clicks 0
CTR for all time 0.0%
CPC for all time $0.00
Auto renew off (enable)
Daily email reports enabled (disable)

J. Russ wrote: "I placed and advertisement on Goodreads for my book. It cost $50 to set up. GR collected this money up front. I changed the ad three times trying to get a better response. I shut down the ad, while..."

Yep, unfortunately these and similar numbers is what I hear so far: (dozens of) thousands of 'views', few clicks, no sales...
Yet, I think GR's placement and manifestation is not that good for advertisers (but good for users -:)). I know there are ads on a page, but I just fail to see them most of the time.
On kuforum uk, for example, the ads catch the eye much better, I think

Nik wrote: "... GR's placement and manifestation is not that good for advertisers (but good for users -:)). I know there are ads on a page, but I just fail to see them most of the time.
On kuforum uk, for example, the ads catch the eye much better..."

ah. that is a good point. need to look at how the ads are placed on the page.

Do you actually pay for any sort of internet advertisement? If so, which one works best for you?

Alexandre wrote: "Do you actually pay for any sort of internet advertisement? If so, which one works best for you?"

heh heh. not i. i haven't even published anything yet. i need to finish a nice cover for my sci-fi novel.

i'm also working on some short fiction. i think that can get your name out there and is faster than publishing an entire novel. for example, dailysciencefiction.com publishes flash fiction and you get $.06/word & is an SFWA-qualified market to boot.

a romance-writer friend of mine said that when she publishes a short work in an anthology, she sees a jump in her novel backlist sales.

i tried wattpad.com for a few months, but that is geared towards YA and mine was 18+ so it wasn't the right fit. i'm going to move it to patreon.com--they take a 5% cut & you pay for transaction fees. one sci-fi writer, Kameron Hurley, a Hugo winner, makes some money on it: https://www.patreon.com/kameronhurley...

As I see it, the problem with advertising is if your ad is one of several dozen, it will probably be ignored. If your ad is for a specific genre book that is more niche, and there are many ads, your niche probably won't go to that sort of ad. If you advertise and there are only about three ads, while yours will stand out, there probably won't be many readers going to that site. The site that is promoting the ads needs to do more than post on a website - it needs to order the ads and attract and send niche readers to the right spot, and most of them are not doing that.

And how do you like your books? -:)

Ads on GR - a very very few clicks to add to the to read list
Ads on Amazon - nothing
Ads on Project Wonderful - nothing
Ads on Book Daily - nothing

So lots of expense and no return

In comparison to:
GR Review - clicks and to reads
Amazon review - good or bad - sales!

Still I'm not trying to make a living at it

Back on forum topic. I like to think some of my books do both. My thrillers try and have real politics mixed in. My Sci-Fi has some lessons for humanity and thoughts on the future. But for all these unless they are entertaining why would anyone read them

Happy New Year!

First, I will say that about anything one writes, however tame the story is, you can be sure that someone around this planet will find a reason to be provoked by it and complain about it. With that said, here is my take on the subject of this thread:

I believe that a story that is both entertaining and thought-provoking (meaning something that stimulates discussion) is the best kind of story. If one of my books can make some readers consider and discuss the subject of, say, gay and lesbian sex for example, and makes them more open to at least discuss it in a friendly, logical manner, then the better. If it also makes the reader smile or laugh, then BINGO!

I have fairly recently (a bit over a year ago) started writing and publishing online novels that mix Erotica and Urban Fantasy (I prefer to call them Urban Fantasy for adults) and they certainly both entertain and provoke, if I judge from my readers' responses. Some grin from ear to ear while steam shoots out of their ears, while others have their panties all wrapped up and swear that I am covered with sulfur! Those two mixed Erotica/Urban Fantasy novels also happen to get downloaded at the fastest rate I ever saw one of my novels get downloaded, so I definitely consider them a success (I also happen to have real fun writing them!). So, go for entertaining AND thought-provoking!

Since WWW has very kindly nominated one of my books for the January read, some of you will find my answer to this question. As for what I like in what others write, I like to be entertained, but left with something to think about that I would not have thought about but for the read. That may be not more than a fresh perspective, after all it is questionable whether anything is truly original these days. Even scientific papers invariably depend significantly on previous work.

What do you prefer?

Both, of course. I want both.