Reading Classics, Chronologically Through the Ages discussion

Thanks for the welcome, Kendra!

I might catch up with the group's reading at some point, or so I hope. Just getting through the Quixote seems like a huge feat to me and after I'm done with those epic poems I still have to decided whether I'd like to follow the chronological order as you do or keep up with the genre lists as they come in the book. But I'll try to join the conversation when I finally read the books that have already been commented in here.

Welcome, Irene! Let me know when you start Don Quixote. I’d planned to read it again. I’m pretty busy but if I can, I’ll join you. Don’t be daunted, just start reading!

Cleo wrote: "Welcome, Irene! Let me know when you start Don Quixote. I’d planned to read it again. I’m pretty busy but if I can, I’ll join you. Don’t be daunted, just start reading!"

Thanks, Cleo! So many encouraging words around here :) Also, I saw that there is indeed a thread open on Don Quixote so I'll check it once I start reading it.

As my parents are coming over the Christmas holidays I'll ask them to bring me a copy (I think we have at least two different editions of Don Quixote gathering dust at home ... typical staple book in Spain). So I think I will be starting as soon as 2019 rings in. Very cliché, I know. But my reading plate is otherwise full at the present time. And I want to spend December reading christmassy stuff like The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe and Little Women, which I haven't read since forever!

Hi everyone, my name is Elizabeth and I'm an American living in Sweden. I've read some of the TWEM books but amazingly no one else in my immediate vicinity seems to want to read them with me - can you believe it? So I'm looking for a place to discuss. Hoping to see the 2019 list soon.

Oh -- more about me -- I'm a university professor (so...um...already educated as a far as that goes); I have two kids (born 2007 and 2012) and a husband who occasionally reads with me (but much prefers gritty crime novels that I hate).

Hi Elizabeth! Welcome to the group! Do you have a TWEM book that you're wanting to start? I'm going through the histories at the moment but have kind of stalled. This group is a good reminder to keep me going. I hope 2019 is a good year for discussions here!

Well, I read quite a few of the books a couple of years ago -- Gilgamesh, Herodotus, Thucydides, Old Testament, Iliad, odyssey, The Birds and Frogs, but stopped just before Rome and have just read Augustine's Confessions up to his conversion.

I really hate how anti-woman the ancient Mediterranean cultures were and how that colours the whole western canon so I can get grumpy while reading.

I made a lot of lists in my earlier phase that incorporated books from other written traditions like Indian and Chinese and more books from historical western women like Christine de Pizan (book of the city of ladies) and Anna Comnena (the Alexiad). I have to find them though!

Meanwhile I am considering trudging through City of God. I'm not a Christian and sometimes the god oriented worldview of Augustine onwards is very foreign and off putting.

I totally hear you on the gender aspect. In fact, I had to look up the two women you mentioned as I have never heard of them! And I'll bet money that the reason I haven't heard of them isn't because their works aren't great, but because their works are considered inferior solely because the authors are women.
I'll now be adding them to my reading list--thanks!!

Have you heard of the Nart Sagas? They are a collection of myth stories from the various people of he Caucasus region and are believed to have been handed down from the ancient steppe tribes such as the Sythians and the Saka. I have recently purchased the collection edited by John Colarusso. The cultures from which they spring are known for holding women in high regard, and the myths place then in positions of authority, such as sources of wisdom and as warriors.

Thank you, I had not heard of them, and I'm excited to know about them.

Christine de Pizan was one of the go-to political theorists of the medieval period; Anna Comnena was a princess and historian, who wrote about the eastern empire and church at the time of the Crusades. I took a course in the history of the Crusades many years ago and learned about her. Pizan's city of ladies is some kind of a commentary on City of God I think, and also a refutation of a misogynistic poem that was making the rounds at the time. There are even more texts by women as we go towards modern times. For example in science I think we should read Florence Nightingale (who not only revolutionised nursing but also was a pioneer in the scientific method in social sciences); Harriet Martineau (who translated and commented on Comte and was fundamental in some other ways), plus anthropologists like Margaret Mead and Ruth Benedict, and Mary Shelley and well... lots of women were writing and working, of course. But since we're talking right now about the close of the Roman Empire, we are more limited!!!

Of all those I have only heard of Mary Shelley (which I find sad), and Frankenstein is actually one of my all-time favorite novels.

Thank you for throwing out more names for us all to consider making part of our reading persuits!

Elizabeth wrote: "I really hate how anti-woman the ancient Mediterranean cultures were and how that colours the whole western canon so I can get grumpy while reading.
..."

In a general sense, I don't think every society would think of themselves as anti-women nor do I believe the women of those cultures would see it that way. There is lots of modern writing espousing this idea but I often see evidence that says otherwise.

With regard to the Greeks, the men's domain was the polis which meant the city of which politics was a part and the women's domain was the home. It appears they did this not to subjugate women but because it made the most logical sense. Cross-over, however much we would have liked to see it, would not be viewed as efficient.

The Apostle Paul continually put women in high positions and had an extremely high respect for them and their abilities.

Part of my readings of The Sayings of the Church Fathers, contained a number of sayings by women, so there were in effect "Church Mothers" although certainly not as many as men. However they are included on a equal footing.

Hypatia, a woman who taught philosophy and astronomy in the Eastern Roman Empire and was highly respected for her intellect has been presented as the only woman who escaped from a misogynistic male social “prison”, however reactions to her abilities by men of those times were often not negative at all and often expressed admiration. A Christian historian of the time, gives a glowing account of her and ends by saying: “… For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more.” One modern account I read was not only inaccurate, but did not do justice to the memory and life of Hypatia.

What I find curious is that many times when I encounter women like Hypatia, I don't encounter surprise at their abilities by their male contemporaries. People seem quite generous to give praise. I do however encounter animosity for different reasons other than gender, such as an unbalancing of the power structure whether political or religious, etc. that could have happened to a man as well. It gives me pause to think. And I wonder how many other women did “extraordinary” things and we simply don’t know about them because we have no historical documentation.

All that said, that while I'm sure there was gender discrimination, I'm not sure that it's as widespread as we assume.

You've mentioned a number of interesting women, Elizabeth. I've heard of them all but Ruth Benedict. Perhaps a buddy read will metamorphosize in 2019! :-)

Hi Cleo, I hear what you're saying, but there's also clear historical evidence of widespread oppression and subjection of women in the mediterranean region from historical times onwards. Maybe it was OK to think one woman was exceptional? Like I'm not sure systemic gender discrimination is the same thing as personal animosity to women (although probably in some individuals they overlap).

What I read about the early church (like very early, around the time of Paul) though was much more equal.

There's another book I've been meaning to read by a very provocative author, a lawyer named Catherine MacKinnon (I happened to hear her talk on a podcast) called "Are Women Human?" -- http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.ph... (but quite out of order on our list!!)

Can't wait to get back home and find my earlier lists :-)

Elizabeth wrote: "I'm not sure systemic gender discrimination is the same thing as personal animosity to women..."

Hey Elizabeth, I think they can be different. One is personal and the other could be due to a variety of different factors, power being one of them.

Elizabeth wrote: "There's another book I've been meaning to read by a very provocative author, a lawyer named Catherine MacKinnon (I happened to hear her talk on a podcast) called "Are Women Human?..."

How interesting! It appears that she borrowed the title from Dorothy Sayers' book, Are Women Human? Astute and Witty Essays on the Role of Women in Society. This is a great read if you have the time. Sayers did experience discrimination as an intellectual woman trying to enter the university and her observations are point-on. What I like about her is that her responses, instead of fuelling more animosity which would make the problem worse instead of better, while direct, were respectful and respectable, and she was easily able to be seen as a contemporary intellectual by such notables as C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, etc. It would be interesting to compare the two books. I will definitely explore the link that you sent. Thanks!

I didn't know about this book of Sayers's, but I love her novels! Thank you for pointing it out. Virginia Woolf also wrote about women in university, I remember reading about her standing outside the library, unable to go in. I related this to my own experience while a PhD student where I was unable to go into the library to fetch books because i had my (nursing) infant with me....

Oh! I wanted to ask, I think I have the first edition of TWEM, I sort of gather there is an updated list? What list are we reading? Any links much appreciated.

Elizabeth, I too have the first edition. From what I can tell comparing the lists, the second edition added the science genre, and one or two of the modern novels changed. I think I kept both on my personal list, although I should probably borrow the second edition from the library again just to make sure...

Thanks! One of the things I did when back in the US was to join the local library -- now I can get English ebooks! Maybe they will have TWEM II.

Thanks, Sandy!! I'm still looking for an edition of city of God...

Thanks, Sandy! I see you've found my new and improved (I hope!) Classical Carousel. My list is from the first edition so it doesn't have the updated books. But it's a good start at least.

City of God is a brute of a book but Augustine's thoughts are very interesting. Kendra has a thread with an excellent introduction that certainly helped me understanding why Augustine was beating certain topics to death highly concerned about various issues. ;-)

Hi Sandy, I should put the novels up but I jumped into the project with someone else when they were starting biographies and I'd already read most of the novels so I decided to skip the list. I should go back to it.

So far I've really enjoyed the books SWB chose aside from the slave narratives however Up from Slavery was wonderful and now one of my favourites! Even Nietzsche, who drove me crazy, ended up being a favourite in a sort of twisted way, lol! ;-)

I am just shoving in the reading when I can instead of hoping for that oh, so elusive "time". I'm signing up for challenges in 2019. Not that I expect to complete any, but I do notice I read much more when I join them, so join them I will! Hope you're doing well and I see you're getting some reading accomplished!

Sandy wrote: "Cleo wrote: "I wasn't intending to lay a guilt trip on you, Cleo...."

Don't worry, you didn't guilt trip me, Sandy. I've been meaning to add the novels for ages and your words reminded me.

I'm sorry to hear about your health. I think of you often and wonder how you're doing. If you can find a good naturopath, they can often be so helpful. I hope he can put you on the road to better health, which, of course, means more reading! All the best!

Sandy, I don't know you but also wish youth best on your road to health!

I am now back home and have found my TWEM folder from years ago. I was very disciplined!

I made notes pages from the book -- i.e. that one should always begin by writing a 1-2 pp summary of the significant events of the period setting the book in historical perspective, and even generate a timeline. Then I would read in reprise her approach to the particular genre, write notes during reading, and then write a composition (1-2pp about an aspect of the work). The last one I more often than not did not do! But I found that I was reading more like the ancients list from well-trained mind, which is a a bit different than the TWEM edition, and that I had also looked at Fadiman's *Lifetime Reading Plan* and the list of eastern classics from St John's College in Santa Fe. I think I'm not so much reading the Bauer plan as treading my own path.

Elizabeth

OK so I've been looking at the Great Books Lists website -- http://www.sonic.net/~rteeter/greatbk... again. These things are really such a matter of opinion, a matter of what connects the books to the readers, and of course then to other books. I'm not saying that the books I've read are bad or anything, just that I'm really surprised by some of the things that are left out of these lists, and some of the connections that are not made. One is tempted to write one's own list!

Continuing my thinking -- after having looked at a variety of book lists, I've come to the conclusion that most of them, by showcasing only one or two women authors, have missed the centuries-long and consistent writing tradition by women authors about the nature of oppression -- Christine de Pizan writes about it, Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley writes about it, Charlotte Brontë writes about it, Harriet Beecher Stowe writes about it, Virginia Woolf writes about it, Audre Lorde writes about it, Ursula LeGuin writes about it, Margaret Atwood writes about it -- and their thoughts develop and move with the centuries. They also, in keeping with modern feminists and especially black feminists, write about the corporeal body (in its feminine shape, or with its black skin), about the difficulty of hating the body (mostly because of its association with sin/sexuality) while simultaneously loving and believing in its power to bring forth children (oh man on this point Adrienne Rich's book *Of Woman Born* is very mighty). These are important human themes, and themes that touch so many people. I just think it is wrong to leave this stuff out, and it's really such a raw exercise of power to say (even by omission) that these themes are not important! Only people not oppressed can think so.

I'm going to assemble a little list of my own that I hope people will find a valuable resource.

Hello! I'm a former homeschool mom - my kids are in college now, and I'm focusing on my own reading plan. We read a lot of classics together, but not everything I wanted to get to, and there are many I'd like to revisit.

This looks like a dedicated group of readers - I look forward to sharing thoughts and learning from everybody!

Elizabeth, I look forward to your list.

Hi Karen and welcome!!

Hi Karen! Welcome to the group! I homeschooled my daughter as well. I miss it!

On another note, there is a Moby Dick read-along coming up in February. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll give you the details.

Count me out! Once was more than enough...

Elizabeth wrote: "Count me out! Once was more than enough..."

Lol! I've heard from a number of people who really enjoyed it (I was surprised, I must say) so I'm going to give it a shot. And reading with others for a book like this is too good to pass up.

It's my brother's favourite book but all I remember is 8 pages (8 full pages, mind you) on "the whiteness of the whale". Of course, I read it when I was 15, which was probably not ideal. Still -- hard pass.

Cleo wrote: "On another note, there is a Moby Dick read-along coming up in February. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll give you the details."

Hi, Cleo-
I'm reading and discussing Moby Dick in 6 monthly installments right now with my in-person classics reading group. It is a great way to do it. I think one has to think of it as reading the Bible or reading a myth, a little at a time, leisurely. If you expect to get caught up in a suspenseful plot or exciting action as with a typical novel, it will disappoint. There is a story, and also small stories within the story. But there is also much musing and philosophizing on the nature of things.
Yes, I'd like the details on the read-along.
Thanks!
Julie

Hi Julie! Again I envy you and your in-person book club!

The read along is going to be hosted by Brona at Brona's Books. I think we're going to read a chapter and listen to a podcast episode until we finish. I thought I heard a chapter per week but I think MD has a number of chapters so I'm not sure. In any case, we will be reading slowly. I hope that you can join in somehow. It would be good to have your already enlightened opinion! ;-) Take care and Merry Christmas!

Cleo wrote: "I thought I heard a chapter per week but I think MD has a number of chapters so I'm not sure.

Yes, more than 100 chapters, many of which are only 1 to 3 pages.

Sorento62 wrote: "
Yes, more than 100 chapters, many of which are only 1 to 3 pages."

Ah! Then I imagine we'd be doing more than one chapter per week. I believe she's planning to start it in February so keep an eye out!

Hi, all. Not sure if I'm in the right place or not. I'm just getting ready to start The Well Educated Mind in hopes of finding a way to fill in at least part of the gap in my education. Better late than never, I suppose. So would it be better if I go read the Bauer book and come back later or what? Jump and see if I can swim? What's your advice?

Hi Gini! Welcome! Have you not read any of the book? Are you planning to start with the novels? Whatever section you're starting with, I'd read her introduction to it and then whatever she's written for the novel you're reading. It should only take an evening. Are you planning to write notes? If so, you could write as you read. It's all a personal preference. I'd already read Adler's How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading so I did a cursory read of sections of Bauer's as I needed to. But someone else might approach it differently. And if you want to jump right in, that works too! Hope that helps!

Thank you, Cleo. That does help. Think I'll spend some time with Ms Bauer before I launch here. Another few days getting some focus and direction can't hurt. Thanks.

Welcome, Gini! I look forward to your insights once you hop into the conversations.

Thank you, Kendra. I'm pretty excited about this project.

Gini, this site is doing a chapter a day read-along of Don Quixote It might be beneficial to join or even follow. He didLes Misérables last year (I missed it ... so sad).

Very nice site, and, of course, I couldn't resist. Read most of it long ago in school. Well, maybe I should say enough of it to bluff my way through the course I was taking. Thanks for the link.

Just had to say something about the Bauer book. I've not read much of it yet, but I have done the exercises that I've encountered. Just that little bit has been so helpful. Glad I stumbled into this site a while back. Thanks.

That's great that it's helping you, Gini! I also liked Mortimer J. Adler's How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading. It not only helped my analytical reading but also gave me a greater appreciation and respect for the authors themselves.

Cleo wrote: "That's great that it's helping you, Gini! I also liked Mortimer J. Adler's How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading. It not only helped my analytical reading but a..."

I read a little of that one, and I may add that into the mix. It's a bit heavier. Thought I'd stay with the Bauer for a while longer and see what happens. The questions she gives the reader to query their reading are good, and I'll try that for a while. Although, I'm not too excited with her fiction choices, but fiction isn't where I want to go anyway. I'm thinking of drama instead. My goal is poetry, just for the record.

Gini wrote: "I read a little of that one, and I may add that into the mix. It's a bit heavier. ..."

That's a good observation. It is. I read it when I felt I understood Bauer's framework.

On first observation, I felt some of her choices odd but I must admit after I read through the biographies, some of them she chose were excellent and I never would have chosen them myself.

I'm trying to read more poetry as well. I can't wait to get to that section. In the meantime, I've added some poetry to my Deal Me In Challenge (see message 22 Diamonds) Poetry is very underrated but I think it's helps us to communicate better and to understand life better among other things ....

I was a voracious reader of anything and everything in my youth and have regained my enthusiasm in the past 12 months.

As I started to write a novel recently it suddenly took an unexpected turn and I found I needed an understanding of Ancient Greece. My knowledge, now mostly forgotten, consisted of an enforced school reading of The Iliad when I was 11 years old. Over the weekend I've read "Why Homer Matters" by Adam Nicolson as a primer and I'm awaiting works by Hesiod, Herodotus, Aristotle, Apollonus, Virgil and Ovid.

My aim is to begin here and read as many classics as possible, chronologically from antiquity to the 20th Century. A spreadsheet list already contains 35 titles from the B.C.E. period and numerous A.D. authors I mean to read. If I live that long!

Way to go, David! Ancient Greece is probably my favourite time period although I've slowed down with my reading of it. I loved Herodotus, Thucydides and Ovid (although he was technically a Roman we won't hold it against him, lol!) I'm trying to get through The Republic but stalled on it and I've gone on to other books at the moment.

I hope you do live that long! Happy reading and welcome!

Hey, everyone! I'm really glad I found this group. Last year, I started reading from Bauer's list of recommended novels. I got pretty far until I hit a snag with "Anna Karenina." After that, I slowed down considerably. I'm hoping that, with a community of others devoted to reading the classics, I'll find the motivation to continue, because it is such a gratifying pursuit!

Nice to meet you, Taylor! Welcome to the group! What book from the list are you considering reading next?