The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

I will post comments and questions within the next couple of days. I'm sick in bed :(

Deborah, take care of yourself, and I hope you feel better soon.

No hurry Deborah--take care of yourself!

Sending virtual vitamin C your way!

I appears you have all waited for me ;). I'm on the mend, and the headache has subsided enough to be able to read.

Hopefully you are all either using a character list or making one of your own as you go along. Not only are there many characters, but in some case, different names for the same individual.

We have the background of some of them in these chapters. Each chapters almost appears to be a separate vignette instead of a cohesive plot. Below you will find some discussion questions. As always, if you've read ahead please be wary of spoilers. Also, anything re the work or the author is fair game for discussion. We don't need to stick strictly to the questions.

What does the description of Bazarov (chapter 2) tell you about his character?

What does Arkady mean when he says it makes no difference where a man is born? Does it make a difference?

What impact does a broken love affair have on Pavel's manliness?

What do you think of Bazarov and his opinions/beliefs?

Fenichka has a caged bird. Is she too caged? Why?

Forgot to thank you all for your good wishes and patience. I do appreciate it.

Well, it's a bit early for me to judge the characters well. I'm looking forward to see how they develop.

Bazarov (crap, accidentally came across a major spoiler about him when I was looking online to remind myself of Arkady's definition of nihilism): Well, as a nihilist, he questions everything... except his own ego, apparently. He doesn't even have common courtesy. I wonder what Arkady, who seems like a nice kid, sees in him? I guess we'll find out more later. Maybe Bazarov is the equivalent of the "cool kid in school who is also kind of a bad boy."

Pavel: Well, I do agree with Bazarov in just one way, in that I don't really feel too sorry for Pavel in regards to his broken love affair. He wasted his time on someone who wasn't worth his attention. About his manliness, I'm not completely sure yet. I'll wait and see.

Fenechka: Again, it's a bit too early to tell. From what I can tell so far, Fenechka seems happy, but a bit embarrassed about her position (and she's a naturally timid person). She seems to love Nikolai Kirsanov and it seem like he is good to her. But it does make me wonder, a young girl left alone like that, what would normally happen to her in that situation? Nikolai seems like a kind man who wouldn't have taken advantage of her if she wasn't willing, but would all "masters" have been the same? I don't know much about the Russian feudal system and how female workers were treated by their masters. I do wonder why Pavel went to her room and why his attitude was so strange. Does he, like Arkady, feel that Nikolai should marry her? (maybe, but I doubt it) Does he disapprove of Nikolai's relationship with her? Does he not mind the relationship but disapprove of Nikolai giving her a more privileged position in the house? (that's my suspicion, but I don't want to judge Pavel too quickly)

I'm looking forward to the rest of the book! And glad you're feeling better, Deborah!

I really don't like Bazarov for a number of reasons: he is opiniated, rude, generally self-absorbed and he dissects frogs. He is described as "that hairy creature" in chapter 4.
The two brothers are unlike. Pavel is a dandy, the victim of an unfortunate love affair. I get the impression that Arkady's father is a bit of a muddle- head. I am sure is being taken advantage of by his tenants and not in control of his finances. He had to sell some of his property, which is not a good thing at all.
Fenechka is in a difficult situation but seems to be coping so far. Things could have been a lot worse. Arkady's father is 44 years old, which is relatively young. I wonder if he will eventually marry her?
Another strike against Bazarov is the fact that he makes fun of the fact that
Nikolay plays the cello. A point in his favour is the that the baby Mitka likes him.
I think Arkady is overwhelmed by his personality and parrots everything he hears. I wonder if they will continue to get along when they don 't share the same opinions?
Glad you are feeling better, Deborah.

Thanks Rosemarie and Lori.

Did anyone else get the feeling it's a story of opposites?

Yes, the title itself is an opposite: Fathers and Sons.
I am sure that more will appear in the course of the novel, maybe nihilism vs. faith?

I don't like Bazarov either, but at the same time, he's an important character in recognizing the ideas that were floating around at the time the novel is written.

And while naming nihilism as an individual's foundational belief system isn't "in" today, the idea that most all beliefs/values are "imagined" and temporary is something that people still debate.

I also didn't feel sorry for Pavel. I've never understood someone who would give up their entire life for a "love."

I did like Nikolai. He seems kind, loves his son, tries hard to do right by the "peasants" and his farm, but doesn't quite seem to success. And I also like that he loves his baby, plays the cello, and he is good to Fenechka.

And Arkady does seem nice like his father. I like that he reached out to Fenechka.

I'm not sure if Fenechka is a caged bird. She seems happy in her situation (at least so far), but I didn't like that Bazarov was "hitting" on her in that last chapter. Is there an affair coming up?

And glad that you are feeling better, Deborah!

I feel that Arkady is rather thoughtless - even though he feels tenderness for his father, Nikolai has to wait five or six hours for him and Bazarov for no better reason than "they lingered". I think Lori's probably right in saying Arkady sees Bazarov as the "cool kid".

When Bazarov irritates Pavel by showing off his knowledge, I wonder if that's deliberate? I suspect it is. Bazarov is rather patronising towards his elders: maybe as part of his nihilist philosophy, but maybe just because that's his character (and that's why nihilism's refusal to accept authority is attractive to him.)

Is this story about character analysis? Is that what Turgenev is asking of his readers?

(I haven't started reading yet, but the discussion so far leads me to ask if I want to. I always have assumed that the book is about more than gossip, which is what much of this sounds like to here, i.e., talking about people, more than about relationships, ideas, familial or social or societal issues.)

Perhaps he is looking at different types of characters, at different ages. Not much has happened yet but it is still early days.

Lily wrote: "Is this story about character analysis? Is that what Turgenev is asking of his readers?

(I haven't started reading yet, but the discussion so far leads me to ask if I want to. I always have assume..."

I'd say it's about ideas but you learn those through the characters. Remember it was an age of change and the story reflects different factions.

The characters do embody the ideas because Russia at that time didn't allow for as much freedom of expression. So, we find in most of the novels from these time periods, that the authors use characters to explore different ideas, but generally - and we'll see if it is true in this case - by the end of the novel, they come back to many traditional ideas.

I'm not an expert, however, on Russian literature but that is the general argument that I've read. Let me know if you've heard differently.

Thanks for the interesting questions, Deborah.

This does appear to be a book about ideas and characters and society. The interaction between and attitudes of the characters help us understand the constraints of the society of that time, not just gossip, as it might be considered if we were talking about present day people.

I agree Bazarov is so unlikable. He even commented that nature was there only as a "workshop" for people. It seems like he's just selfish, like the world is sort of a workshop he is experimenting in to see what happens.

Pavel is interesting. I'm a romantic and understand his inclination, but only in the upper classes could a person "waste" their life on something like this!

I was curious about the bailiff, who I guess is kind of an overseer in charge of the peasants?

Interesting question about whether it makes a difference where a man is born. I felt Nikolai was just making reference to people having a subconscious attraction to the surroundings they were born in. Maybe Arkady read more into it about people's stations or it touches on his belief there is no importance in family/background, etc?

Kathleen wrote: "Thanks for the interesting questions, Deborah.

This does appear to be a book about ideas and characters and society. The interaction between and attitudes of the characters help us understand the..."

I read it as does birth place affect your life. So does where you are born affect you, your personality, your status in life, your opportunities?

I also didn't like Bazarov right off the bat when he called a peasant bushy beard. He's rude, arrogant and insolent. I agree that he became a nihilist because it suited his personality. Arkady was probably drawn by his bigger personality and cool nonchalance.
I liked the way Pavel and Bazarov play against each other. Bazarov is scruffy and dirty vs Pavel being stuffy and proper. Also, it was interesting that Bazarov took to baby Mitya immediately, while Pavel hadn't even met the baby till he was 6 months old. I feel sympathetic towards Pavel. He's liberal (not beating peasants), but he's stuck in the ways of the old society and I don't think he knows how to change with the times. Fenitchka is in a cage of feeling like a lowly peasant even though Nikolai really loves her.

Lily wrote: "Is this story about character analysis? Is that what Turgenev is asking of his readers? (I haven't started reading yet, but the discussion so far leads me to ask if I want to. I always have assume..."

T&S is a political novel, but it is much more than that. It’s not like Chernyshevsky’s book (see Cleo's post 21 in Resources) advocating any specific cause. Turgenev operates on a more abstract level.

There is quite some political bickering in the first chapters, but mainly to define the playing field. Contrary to what is often said, the characters do not represent clearly recognizable political positions (there was no party advocating Bazarov’s lack of opinions, while Nicolai and Pavel express an inconsistent mixture of older ideas). What matters is the temperamental difference between the old Romantic reformism and the new 'scientific' radicalism.

Bazarov’s rude rationalism is contrasted with Pavel’s romantic conceit. But there are enough shades of grey to make the characters convincing. Bazarov may not be the authors favorite (note the narrator's use of his family name), but his critique of the older generation is not baseless. Maybe the tragedy is that both forms of opposition, the old and the new, do not offer much hope for Russia?

in F&S Turgenev reflects on the provenance of our convictions. Ideas depend on when one is born (generations), and where. But also on personality traits. Bazarov’s rudeness expresses his social insecurity, Pavel’s antagonism a personal sense of failure. It’s about attitudes. Posed between them are the weaker Nikolai and Arkady. It will be interesting to see how they react on the conflict that is in the air.

But at least as important as all this is Turgenev’s writing. His succinct style, the telling details. On the first page for instance, the post-coach arrives five hours late - to show Russia’s backwardness without spelling it out. And what about the description of Nikolai’s servant Piotr: "… in whom everything — the turquoise ring in his ear, the hair plastered down with grease and the polite flexibility of his movements — indicated a man of the new improved generation …".

It is 1859 and Russia, at long last, seems to be changing. But will it be substantial, and for the better? Do the characters show much promise to make a meaningful contribution?

I finished reading this section about the time the group moved on to the next section. I'll try to catch up a bit. The "generation gap" here is amusing. The older generation kind of despairs of the young people, and the young people are amazed at how out of touch the older generation is. Bazarov reminds me of someone I knew in high school, about 45 years ago. A smart kid who thought of himself as an intellectual. He liked the idea of nihilism, too. He always seemed to be kind of sneering at everyone around him.

Casceil wrote: "I finished reading this section about the time the group moved on to the next section. I'll try to catch up a bit. The "generation gap" here is amusing. The older generation kind of despairs of the..."

Don't rush. You are fine. The threads stay open, and the next section was just posted.

Wendel wrote: "Lily wrote: "Is this story about character analysis? Is that what Turgenev is asking of his readers? (I haven't started reading yet, but the discussion so far leads me to ask if I want to. I always..."

Wendel - wonderful post.

Although, I'm not sure I agree about the characters not representing political positions. They may or may not have some connection to politics, but they do represent different ideas and theories that were being considered throughout Europe and America at that time.

Also, there were censors in Russia who would deny any type of criticism of the government.

Which is why I think that Bazarov's character is so unlikable. He must be unlikable; bottom line, he is undermining - or attempting to undermine - authority.

I love the 1800s because there were so many writers and philosophers and politicians who were challenging the long held ideas and positions that kept only a certain group of people in power. We get a lot of our ideas today from them.

I started on this book late too!

What do you think of Bazarov and his opinions/beliefs?

Bazarov and his effect on Pavel, Nikolai, and Arkady remind me of something Alexander Solzhenitsyn said in a 1970's interview that I read last year in his book Warning to the West: “And now it is with a strange sensation that we look at what is happening to you; many social phenomena that happened in Russia before its collapse are being repeated….You know, one could quote here many examples: for one, a certain retreat by the older generation, yielding their intellectual leadership to the younger generation. It is against the natural order of things for those who are youngest, with the least experience of life, to have the greatest influence in directing the life of society.” Solzhenitsyn might as well have been thinking of these four people in Fathers and Sons when he said that, or some real life examples that were similar.

I think Bazarov’s nihilism, defined as rejection of all authority, is an unworkable philosophy because we are finite creatures and no one can access all the knowledge that the human race has accumulated thus far without taking some things on authority. One would be stuck reinventing the wheel over and over again. To be fair, though, Bazarov doesn’t reject all authority. He does respect some authority, like those German scientists who made advances in his field of study. But then there are whole areas of knowledge (history, for instance) that are accessible solely through authority. One can’t know anything of a time long past without trusting the accounts left behind by those who lived through it. Bazarov seems to be the type of materialist who thinks that only knowledge that can be arrived at through the scientific method is the only kind worth having, so he scoffs at poetry and thinks that Nikolai’s playing the cello is ridiculous. I think his beliefs would necessarily lead to huge blind spots in his understanding of the world and of other people. Let’s see if he can remain satisfied within the limits he has set for himself. Or maybe someone can induce him to step outside them. If the latter, my money’s on Pavel just because he is the strongest opposite to Bazarov (at least so far).

Fenichka has a caged bird. Is she too caged? Why?

Fenechka built the cage out of her own two hands and got into it voluntarily. She's the daughter of a respectable, conscientious, hardworking woman. Her mother taught her some skills and high standards that could be used to earn a living. The most logical thing for her to do after her mother’s death is to take her mother’s job. Instead, she decides that sleeping with the master and having an illegitimate child is the easier, more remunerative option. Clearly, this girl is no Jane Eyre, who had principles and the spine to stick to them even under strong pressure. Fenechka is the weak, pliant type who takes the path of least resistance. To her credit she has enough humility to understand where she went wrong, so she made herself scarce on Arkady’s arrival. If she becomes a major character in the story I hope she grows a spine somewhere along the line.

Gyoza wrote: "I started on this book late too!

What do you think of Bazarov and his opinions/beliefs?

Bazarov and his effect on Pavel, Nikolai, and Arkady remind me of something Alexander Solzhenitsyn said in ..."

You are not too late. Great post and worth waiting for

Bazarov says he is a nihilist but I ask myself if he would give up his nihilism if something lucrative came along. He is not an idealist, but a pragmatist.
As for Fenechka, I consider her a realist. It wasn 't easy to be a young woman with no family in those days. I am glad that Nikolay has taken the reponsability to see that mother and child are looked after.
I am sure that all of us at one time or another have encountered some one like Bazarov, but perhaps not such an extreme version.

Just catching up.

This first section was not what I expected but very interesting as it introduced all the characters and their histories. I wonder if we will get to see Bazarov with his own father before too long. Wasn't he supposed to be stopping with Arkady for a visit before going home? I have to wonder what we will learn about him and his ideas when he confronts his own father and his own origins.

I also wondered if Turgenev was foreshadowing an affair. Pavel's comments about the baby seemed to indicate that he was ascertaining that his brother was truly the child's father.

I suspect that Arkady will have to come to some crossroads over the course of the story. He may suffer a great deal from the conflict. It will be interesting to see who he becomes by the end of the story.

Arkady seems to treat Bazarov as a role model, which is a shame, since Arkady appears to be a much more amiable person. He is probably just going through a phase of hero worship. I don't think he really means all that he says--Bazarov is one of the "cool" guys, according to Arkady.