You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

Myself and Sarah are buddy reading Time and Chance by Sharon Kay Penman next month. The start date is May 7th. This is book #2 in the 'Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine' series. All are welcome to join us.

Haha, oops I set it up as well https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/....

Heh. I'll delete your one Sarah, as there are now two comments here. Loving the proactiveness though!

Sarah wrote: "Haha, oops I set it up as well https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...."

Lol, whoops! At least it shows we are keen! ;)

That's okay Rusalka thanks.

Hehe yes. I'm very keen to start. I have another buddy read of 'Throne of Glass' and gunna read The Goldfinch for France, then I'll continue moving West.

What are you reading Lisa?

There! Fixed the calendar. It's now pointing to this thread.

Sarah wrote: "That's okay Rusalka thanks.

Hehe yes. I'm very keen to start. I have another buddy read of 'Throne of Glass' and gunna read The Goldfinch for France, then I'll continue moving West.

What are you ..."

I'm currently reading The Séance: A Victorian Mystery and I'm about to start The Distant Hours for a buddy read. I will be looking forward to seeing what you think of The Goldfinch. It has been on my TBR for ages. Have you read The Secret History? I loved that.

Janice wrote: "There! Fixed the calendar. It's now pointing to this thread."

Thanks, Janice.

Ooh, yes you've read some Kate Morton before too and enjoyed? I haven't read that no, this will be my first book by Tartt.

Oh I spotted something on The Works btw if you're interested Justin de Quincy books all for £2 or get 6 books for £10

http://www.theworks.co.uk/p/historica...

Well, I hope you enjoy Donna Tartt as an author. I think you will. Yes, this is the fourth Kate Morton I have read. I have enjoyed them all so far. You should definitely give her books a go, I think you would like them.

Thanks for the link! I have just bought the first two books in that series. You can get both in a set for £3.50. Are you going to buy any of them?

I do want to read some of Kate Morton's books I think I put 3 on my TBR list I just have to look around a bit.

Your welcome. I got them too, I went for the 6 books for £10 and got those 4 of her series, then 'Vixen' you ahve on your shelf. I was tempted to get The Boleyn King but I spotted Renegade by Robyn Young and that looked good. And I then got an extra book for £2 'The Song of Achilles'.

Did you get then delivered? I'm going to collect them and they do The Works card now Yay =] that'll come in handy

Oh yes, Vixen. It has been on my TBR for a while. Maybe it could be a potential buddy read at some point in the future? Doesn't it have a really pretty cover? The Song of Achilles is one of my favourite books. It's one of the few books that made me cry. Renegade sounds really good. It's part of a trilogy by the looks of it. I have just added all three to my wishlist. I think I might get them on my kindle though instead of in hard copy.

Yes, I decided to get them delivered rather than collecting them. Ooh, I didn't know about the card that they do. I will have to get one. I agree, it will definitely come in handy. Anything that allows you to buy more books is a good thing ;)

It is a very pretty cover. Yes we could buddy read that together in the future =]

I've seen a fair amoutn of reviews for SOA and hope I enjoy it too, I tend to go by the ratings in this group and so far I've nearly alway enjoyed the books everyone else has. Yes it is part of a trilogy I'm looking for the first one. But they do sound good don't they =]

Yep, you can get the card for free either online or in the store. I'm going to collect mine, hopefully they are there on the weekend as we're popping into Bristol anyway.

Sarah wrote: "It is a very pretty cover. Yes we could buddy read that together in the future =]

I've seen a fair amoutn of reviews for SOA and hope I enjoy it too, I tend to go by the ratings in this group and ..."

You can get all the books in that trilogy by Robyn Young on Amazon but they aren't cheap, sadly. Unless you try the marketplace sellers? It's a bit annoying that The Works has the second and third book but not the first. Having said that, I don't think the third book is on offer either. The trilogy does sound really good, I love Scottish history, particularly the period that they cover with Robert the Bruce, William Wallace and Edward I. I actually read the first book in one of her other trilogies, Brethren, about ten years ago. It was pretty good but for some reason, I never continued on with the other books.

That's good about being able to get the card online. That is what I will probably do. I'm sure your books will be there at the weekend. I would hope it wouldn't take them a whole week to arrive in the store.

Yes they were a bit pricey =[ I'm really picky with my books, I think I've mentioned it before, I hate books with creases down the spine and bend corners even a slight mark I look for another one. I like what my uncle does though, he goes to the charity shop buys loads and when he's finsihed he packs them back up and exchanges them for others. I'm tempted and then I'll just buy the books I really want or really enjoy as brand new. I try not to buy books I haven't read before unless I think I'll really like them. So if it's something I'm trying I go either ebook or second hand.

I haven't read much about it, and I can't remember my history but I do recall when we read TSIS it has Edward 1st in and the 2 princes? and Phillipa Gregory's The White Queen has them in and yes this trilogy is bound to have Edward 1st? Yes William Wallace and Robert the Bruce I don't know too much about so would liek to learn and read more.

Yes, you have mentioned it to me before. I am really picky as well. I take really good care of them once I have bought them too, I hate breaking the spines and things like that.

Was Edward I in TSIS? Edward IV definitely was but Edward I died in 1307 which was a good 150 years before the events in TSIS. Maybe he was mentioned in the chapter in which it talked about the Plantagenet lineage? I remember quite a few kings cropping up in that bit. He was supposed to have been a really formidable King. His son and successor, Edward II, is considered to be one of our worst ever kings. He was meant to have been really weak, easily manipulated and gave too much power and influence to his 'favourites' in court. Have you heard the story about how he is supposed to have died? It's pretty gruesome.

Oh yeh haha, Oops it can be very confusing all with the same name. Yes sorry that's the one Edward II being a terrible king. Oh he's the one in Braveheart film? I don't know my history much about the kings and queens but it is all very interesting.

Helloo. I'm ready to start this later this afternoon or evening. I was gonna get my hair dyed but I've put it off for a few months to save money for something special. I look forward to starting. I have to find it first it's in a box. How about you, will you be starting today still?

Hello!
Yes, I will still be starting today. I will probably pick it up this evening. Really looking forward to it. Ooh, what is this special something you are saving up for? Can you say or is it a secret ;)

Hello. I should still be starting it later. I'm poofed at the moment. We went shopping and walking and playing just dance. We're having a bit of a movie night and munchies and still have to find the book. No its not a secret hehe. We're saving it for a promise ring. I believe some people call it a pre-engagement ring. We're not ready for engagement but it's to show commitment to the relationship. It's not too much money either just a lovely gesture of love. We've found a few we like.

Sarah wrote: "We're saving it for a promise ring."

That's lovely, Sarah! What a nice thing to do :)

I started reading a bit earlier but I didn't get very far as the screen on my kindle froze :( I haven't been able to unfreeze it so far so I am going to forget about it for tonight and have a proper fiddle with it tomorrow.

It seems like a nice idea doesn't it =]

I think they do it more often in America than here but the guy at H.Samuel knew about it. We've found one we loved online but when we looked at it in store and it wasn't as nice as online, and funnilly enough there was one online that looked a bit ugly but in real life it is beautiful so I think we've found one =] Would you like to see?

I started with the Prologue (and weirdly the author's note is at the beginning of my book but I'm going to save that until the end) and left it with that, but started properly today. It jumps right in there which is good.

So far in Chapter 1 I feel ever so sorry for (view spoiler)[Henry and Eleanor losing their first-born, I'm pretty sure Henry was upset when he put his fist through a window, it's a shame some men don't open up to their emotions as much as women do so I can understand Eleanor's frustration and anger at wanting to see Henry's sorrow. (hide spoiler)]

Just beginning Chapter 2 now. This book is a lot shorter isn't it. How many pages are there on your Kindle version? The paperback I am borrowing from my mom has 471.

I'm up to Chapter 5 now.

(view spoiler)[I'm glad to see Ranulf again. I knew he'd be in it but I wasn't expecting to see him so soon, but that's fine by me =] It's a shame he feels so torn between his Welsh kin and his English family. I'm hoping it works out, but I have a feeling it probably won't go well. This peace is only temporary and I worry what'll happen to him.

I liked his meeting with Owain Gwynedd, I haven't met him before just read about him in the other trilogy so it's nice to see how Sharon portrays Owain the Great. (hide spoiler)]

There are lots of things in this one so far that is reminding me of The Welsh Princes Trilogy. It's actually a good setting up for when we read those books. Do you still wish to read them over the summer? I am not sure how or when I'll be reading 'The Devil's Brood' as my mom has that book and I'm not sure when I'm going to see her next, other than September. So if you want to start The Welsh Princes in June or July perhaps? And pick back up with this series in September? If not that's totally fine, I'll just have to wait to read any spoilers.

I haven't been able to get much reading done these past couple of days so I have barely got going with this. Hopefully I will get back on track soon.

Yes, I am still up for reading 'The Welsh Princes' over the summer. How about starting in July? No worries about 'The Devil's Brood', we can read that in the autumn. At least that way we will be able to read it together :)

Also, I would love to see your promise ring!

Ah okay, no worries. I'm slow going, as I'm reading 'The Goldfinch' too.

Yay =] Awesome I look forward to all these books with you. As long as you're okay for the autumn with the rest of this series.

I'll take an actual picture of my ring as it's soo much prettier in real life. The picture doesn't do it justice at all. We got it now and it was cheaper too must have been in the sale hehe =]

Here's the link though http://www.hsamuel.co.uk/webstore/d/9...

Very pretty ring, Sarah!

Your ring is beautiful, Sarah!

How are you getting on with The Goldfinch? Are you enjoying it?

I finally got some decent reading done last night, I am up to Chapter 6. It's really good so far.

(view spoiler)[I felt sorry for Henry and Eleanor when they lost their first born too. I completely understood Eleanor's anger and frustration towards Henry. It seems like he is good at letting his anger and rage show but not so good at showing devastation and sadness. Maybe he worries that people will think him weak if he does? Also, although Eleanor told him that she wasn't angry about him not being there, I think that did play a part in her reaction. It can't have been easy for her to watch her child sicken and die.

It was good to see Ranulf again. He is one of my favourite characters. I am also really worried about what could happen to him if the truce between England and Wales doesn't hold. Who will he support? He is really loyal to Henry but he also deeply loves his adopted country and Welsh family. I wouldn't want to have to make that choice because it's one that he won't be able to get right. Whatever he decides, he will always be hurting someone.

I really like the little bits of humour that crop up throughout the books. I had to laugh at the part where Henry was discussing tactics for the Wales invasion with some of the Marcher lords and one of them was gesturing with his arms so much that it blew out a light. I just had this picture in my head of this overexcited man waving his arms around like a windmill. I also liked Henry's sarcasm when he asked another of the lords if it was worth him "mutilating the table".

I was really pleased when Eleanor stood up for Rhiannon when that man and his wife were mocking her blindness. They soon stopped when she turned the tables on them and let people know of their humiliation :)

What do you think of Thomas Becket so far? I think he is a fascinating character but at the same time, I don't really like him. He comes across as a bit arrogant and full of himself. Eleanor seems to dislike him too. Knowing what happens later on, I am looking forward to seeing how it will all play out and how Sharon Penman will approach it.

There was a nice bit of foreshadowing when Eleanor gave birth to Richard. If I remember rightly, he was her favourite out of all her sons so I enjoyed seeing her reaction when he was born. She seemed to form a deep bond with him almost instantaneously. (hide spoiler)]

My kindle edition has about 500 pages. However, I think some of them are the afterword. There is a character list included this time, there wasn't one in 'When Christ and his Saints Slept'.

I am up to Chapter 14.

(view spoiler)[I am really enjoying all the references to Stephen. It seems that even though he is gone, he still lives on in people's memories.

I hope that Ranulf doesn't begin another affair with Annora. It seems like he put all that behind him when they spoke in the gardens but I'm worried they won't be able to stay away from each other. I really like Rhiannon so I would hate to see him do that to her. I didn't like Annora's reaction either. She seemed angry that he wasn't interested and I thought it was a bit cheeky of her to think that she could just walk back into his life and they could just pick up where they left off. She was the one who ended their affair after all.

Henry and Thomas Becket's friendship has certainly gone downhill and fast! Henry will definitely come to regret not listening to Maude and Eleanor when they told him of their fears about him installing him as Archbishop of Canterbury. I think Becket has become too power hungry now and is causing problems for Henry simply because he can. It's like he is challenging him. (hide spoiler)]

I am now up to Chapter 21.

(view spoiler)[There is so much palpable tension in this book! You literally feel as though you are there, witnessing first hand the battles, both literal and metaphorical. When it comes to Henry and Thomas Becket, I am completely torn about who is in the right. I think there is right and wrong in both of their arguments and viewpoints. Only one thing is certain: it will end in blood.

I was really concerned about Ranulf when the inevitable war between England and Wales kicked off. I figured he would have to remain loyal to Henry but I was so worried about how it would affect his relationship with his family and whether he would be allowed to return to Wales. Thank goodness for Hwyel! At least Ranulf and Rhiannon don't have to leave their home now. His relationship with Henry is still a source of concern though. I thought Henry was going to strike him down where he stood when Ranulf reacted to Henry agreeing to maime the Welsh hostages! Comparing him to Stephen clearly wounded Henry deeply. Will he let the matter lie or will he punish Ranulf? Considering the way Henry is reacting to things at the moment, I wouldn't put anything past him. He is a lot more volatile than he was before and seems to be having difficulty keeping his emotions, particularly his anger, in check.

I wasn't at all surprised when Henry took Rosamund Clifford as his mistress. It was obvious from their first meeting that there was a spark between them. I don't know what to make of her though. For someone who was supposedly so innocent, she certainly seemed to know what she wanted and how to get it. She might genuinely be in love, or lust, with Henry but I am wondering if there are other reasons behind their union. Is she trying to gain a better position for herself and her family within society? It will be interesting to see how Eleanor reacts. There is already tension between her and Henry due to her thinking that he never listens to her and I'm wondering if Rosamund becoming his mistress will make things worse? (hide spoiler)]

How are you getting on with this, Sarah?

I'm slow going with this one and 'The Goldfinch' but I shall hopefully get some more reading done this week.

I have read up to Chapter 23.

(view spoiler)[I am feeling really bad for Eleanor at the moment. She has taken Henry's relationship with Rosamund really badly. I can't say I blame her though. It wasn't unusual for kings to take mistresses but they were supposed to be fairly discreet about it and Henry has been anything but discreet with Rosamund. I am actually quite surprised at him, I thought he had more respect for Eleanor than that. I thought Eleanor was going to fly into a rage when she confronted Rosamund at Woodstock but the shock of seeing her worse fears confirmed left her numb. I couldn't believe she fled back to Oxford afterwards, she could have killed herself and baby John! Unless that was what she was hoping would happen? She didn't want to know John after he was born, she is so angry and upset at Henry's betrayal that she is taking it out on the child they conceived whilst he was also bedding Rosamund. Hopefully her maternal instinct towards him will eventually kick in. After all, he didn't ask to be born.

I really love Maud as a character. I liked her in the first book and I like her even more this time around. I really enjoy the banter between herself and Petra. They could make quite a formidable team if they would only work together. (hide spoiler)]

I'm sorry I'm not so fast with this one. Or any reading actually, had a rough end of the week last week and I think it's continued into this week.

Sarah wrote: "I'm sorry I'm not so fast with this one. Or any reading actually, had a rough end of the week last week and I think it's continued into this week."

Sorry to hear that you have been having a rough few days. I hope things pick up again soon. No need to apologise about the reading, we can discuss this anytime :)

I read a couple more chapters last night. I am now up to Chapter 25.

(view spoiler)[It was sad when Maude died. I felt bad that she died without Henry being there but he was not to know when it was coming and he couldn't help that his kingly duties had taken him away again. I was slightly surprised at Eleanor's coldness though. I understand that she was still seething about Henry's betrayal but she got on well with Maude yet the letter of condolence she sent Henry was pretty devoid of emotion which made it sound like she didn't care about Maude at all. I know she probably didn't want to overdo it in case Henry thought she had forgiven him but surely she could have worded it in such a way as to show that she did care about and respect Maude without Henry thinking he was off the hook?

Talking of Henry and Eleanor, I was glad to see Henry acknowledging, albeit it to himself, that he had treated Eleanor badly and that he shouldn't have installed Rosamund at Woodstock. I also think it's quite funny how he thinks he has gotten away with it now that he and Eleanor have reunited yet we know that is not the case. She has vowed never to forgive or forget and has stored it away for now but that will not be the end of it by any means. I think Henry is going to sorely regret making Rosamund his concubine...

Talking of Rosamund, her family are a bunch of status seekers and social climbers aren't they? They seem to be getting ideas above their stations now that Rosamund is Henry's concubine. I quite like Rosamund though. I wasn't sure about her or her motives initially but she seems to genuinely love Henry and doesn't seem to be interested in the status that being his mistress brings her. (hide spoiler)]

I'm trying to get my head around some of the characters in the book, I was ondering if you could help.

Okay so in the front of mine is the family tree and we have King Stephen and beside him his brothers Theobald Count of Blois and Henry Bishop. The French King Louis is going to wed his (view spoiler)[daughters from his first marriage with Eleanor so Mary and Alix.. to the Counts of Blois, is this the same two men here they are talking about. I'm confused.

And Constance the French King's new Queen, it isn't the Constance that was married to Eustace, Stephen's son as I thought that had been Louis daughter?

Stephen's children, I believe I've got to the point when only Mary is left now and she became a nun, I can't remember what happened to Baldwin, did he die at a young age? I don't remember Matilda the little girl didn't she die too? Eustace obs died from the lamprey eels near the end of the last book. William recently died from fever from swimming?

So I'm trying to figure how who Theobald and Henry are as I swear I recall reading that they were kin to King Stephen, his uncle? (hide spoiler)]

I only have a character list, not a family tree, in my edition and it doesn't include all of the characters but I will do my best.

(view spoiler)[Stephen had an older brother called Theobald but he died in 1152 so a few years before the events in this book took place. He fathered a number of children during his lifetime and his eldest son was called Henry and his second son was called Theobald. They are the Theobald and Henry that wed King Louis's two daughters, Alix and Mary. Both were Counts of Blois.

The Constance who is now married to King Louis is not the same Constance who was married to Eustace. The one who married Eustace was King Louis' sister and after Eustace died, she married Raymond V, Count of Toulouse.

Yes, Baldwin and Matilda have both died. I thought William had died of a fever, possibly after swimming. That's how I read it anyway. (hide spoiler)]

I hope this has helped. It can get quite confusing because everyone seemed to have the same names!

Ah that helps thank you. So they are King Stephen's (view spoiler)[nephews. It's so confusing when they named their children after them and with so many Henry's and William's lol.

Oh I thought it was his daughter but it was his sister yes , I got the Louis confused between VI and VII oh dear.

Yep, that's how I read it too, didn't that happen to Geoffrey, Harry's brother as well? Died from fever? and his father too? (hide spoiler)]

Thank you.

Yes, (view spoiler)[they are King Stephen's nephews. Lol, they certainly were not the most imaginative with names during that period were they?!

With regards to Geoffrey (brother) and Geoffrey (father), yes they both died from fevers. It's a bit strange how they both died in very similar circumstances. Mind you, fevers were a pretty common cause of death at the time so I guess it wasn't unusual. (hide spoiler)]

Glad I was able to help :)

I'll reply back to your spoiler soon as I got up to Chapter 14 last night.

Thank you for your help, yeh it cleared it up for me =]

I'm up to Chapter 17 now.

(view spoiler)[Yes, I think that too about him not wanting to appear weak.

Ranulf is one of my fave's too, I quite like how he appears to be in scene's that are quite crucial to knowing some important things, yet he is the fictional character. I'm getting more worried now, it seems the peace may be coming to and end. Rhys ap Gryffydd seems to have formed an alliance with Owain and I can imagine they are joining forces to fight against Henry. I'm kind of hoping Ranulf will fight on the Welsh side but I can defo understand the worries and prejudice he must be faced with being half-english and being the Uncle of the King of England. I know yes I was so tense during that scene in the gardens with Annora, I think he loves Rhiannon too much, he doesn't seem to have much of a care for Annora, maybe sadness of how his past went with her but not regrets for it ending and moving on with his life.

Yes me too, I'm glad there is some humour in it, Henry and Eleanor can make me laugh, I very much enjoyed her giving out some medicine to those people that were mocking Rhiannon, I'm glad she speaks up a little too, I liked that she spoke up and said that she may be blind but she wasn't deaf. I've noticed that, when people think somethings wrong they talk about it but it's like they are right there, it doesn't mean they can't hear what your saying.

I do like King Henry, it's surprising he came from Geoffrey and Maude lol, although you can defo see that Angevin temper can't you. And now you can see it coming out on Becket.

I must admit I have always known the name (Becket) but not really the story that goes with it, so I'm sure to learn why soon. I really did think that had a good riendship so I was really shocked when he sort of turned his back on that and now he's like really.. what's the word..? I can't find it but he's seemed to change, taken is holy vows and trying to do good by God and the Church, but in my eyes, he's still vain and pretty rich. You wouldn't think that of someone in the order of the church. At least I've never know that, isn't it like the bare minimums, not overly dependant on earthly materials etc..

I quite like Hywel; Owain's son, I'm disliking Cristyn (Cristina/Christina - I was looking it up) for sure. I do remember Rhodri and Dafydd in The Welsh Princes books, so that'll be fun to read again. (hide spoiler)] Oh I was wondering about that. I was thinking I may want to read this series first before I get to that trilogy because I think the last few books in this series is about Richard and John? And The Welsh Princes has mostly King John in. I think the Justin de Quincy books is when Eleanor is on the throne, and I don't want to skip ahead. So I'll see if my mom can post the book to me or get a copy myself and we'll just continue this series?

(view spoiler)[Becket's an odd one, isn't he? I agree, he doesn't really seem to fit the mound of a medieval churchman, particularly one who held such a high office. I think he just became power-crazed. It makes me wonder if he didn't really want to become Archbishop of Canterbury but he was unable to refuse Henry, so he then decided to use his authority to make life difficult for Henry. He was punishing his former friend in a way. Also, you are right about members of the Church, they weren't supposed to be particularly interested in material things but there were many who broke those rules. That's part of the reason why the Reformation took place a few centuries later in Henry VIII's reign, because members of the church were abusing their power and indulging in decadent lifestyles.

Lol, yes you can definitely see the famous Plantagenet temper in Henry! He is like a volcano erupting! (hide spoiler)]

That's fine about continuing on with this series. Devil's Brood will definitely focus more on Richard and John so it is probably best to read that first if the Welsh Princes trilogy takes place in John's reign. Just let me know if and when you get hold of a copy. I already have it on my kindle so I can start anytime :)

Just reached Chapter 29.

(view spoiler)[It was good to see William Marshal again and to learn how his life has progressed over the 15 or so years since we saw him last. He has certainly done well for himself, particularly now that he holds an important position in Eleanor's household. He won't have an easy time of it over the next few decades though, which I'm sure we will see in Devil's Brood.

Henry and Eleanor's children are starting to come into play more now, particularly Hal and Richard. You can already see the rivalry between them and although it's harmless enough at the moment, it won't last. I think the book is doing a good job at foreshadowing future events by showing Henry's efforts to secure lands and titles for his sons in this book. Several characters have already questioned whether what he is doing is a good thing and whether he will be able to keep control of his sons as they get older. His children didn't earn the nickname 'The Devil's Brood' for nothing so you know there is trouble ahead.

I thought Henry and Becket were going to reconcile but then Becket threw it all away at the last minute. Even King Louis couldn't believe what he was seeing and hearing! I was also amazed at how he then went around excommunicating loads of members of Henry's court and that he is now threatening to excommunicate Henry himself! What is he playing at? Whatever it is, he is playing a very dangerous game.

It's quite alarming to see how much Henry and Eleanor's relationship has deteriorated as well. They used to be such a great team and although she still supports him, you can see that she has her own agenda now too. She is not a woman to be crossed, that's for sure. I really admire her actually. I think she was an incredibly strong, intelligent woman who wasn't afraid to take men on at their own game in a male dominated world.

Ranulf hasn't been in the story for quite a while. I wonder if we have seen the last of him for this book or even for the series? I can't imagine we have, I think he has plenty more story left to tell. I hope we see him again anyway because even though he is a fictional character, I think he fits seamlessly into the story and really enriches it.

I agree with you about Cristyn. I don't like her or her sons at all. (hide spoiler)]

Yay =] Great well, I've been looking around and they are quite pricey to buy, so I'm really hoping my mom can send me her copy. I am tempted to get it, but I'm looking for a specific copy too. I suppose I'm being a little picky perhaps. What cover have you got?

I'm up to Chapter 24 now: (view spoiler)[I found it kinda funny that Henry wouldn't let Becket into Woodstock. I'm really surprised he wouldn't resign after some of the bishops encourgaing him to. I woudn't be surprised that he got ill for a short while, all that stress is bound to do that, but for a time I thought it was faked, and I suppose in a sense his illnes could have been false as not shortly afterwards he flees England. This Gilbert Foliot I always get confused with Ranulf's childhood friend, but he died in the last book, can you recall him last name?

I bet Eleanor has been dying to say 'I told you so' about Becket and and even with Henry's letter to Louis, I think that was a bit silly, of course Louis would shelter Becket, having being a member of the church previously but also because he doesn't really like Henry.

Oh no, Ranulf went to Henry I was quite shocked, I felt so sure he might stay with his Welsh kin. That must have been truly horrible, I feel like Hywel didn't begrudge him too much for his choice, but I'm not sure how Rhiannon would deal with Exile from Wales.

I can't believe Owain's sons will be blinded, I knew why Henry had to do it, but still. And I know Ranulf wasn't happy whilst with the English army, so I'm glad he went back home. I liked Hywel's plan and now everyone loves Ranulf again lol. It went well, and I'm so glad Ranulf isn't to be exhiled. I wonder what the rest of the war will bring tho, whether he will go face to face with some of the English.

I can't believer Eleanor has another 2 children =O Joanna features in The Wesh Princes =]

I thought this Rosamund might eventually become Henry's mistress. You could kind of see it happening earlier on when they were at Woodstock was it? And she pushed a man into a fountain or something? And now she's here again at Averton. Before Chapter 21 it looked like Henry was trying to stay away, but now.. I was saddened that Henry stayed in Engand for so long and actually can't believe he brought her to Eleanor's favouite place at Woodstock. It's such a shame.
I was amazed that Eleanor braved the Channel just to see for herself, and what a shock it must have been; a woman much younger than herself, even younger than her eldest by Louis? No surpise she went into early labour. So sad she didn't even want to hold her new son.

I've just got to the part when Maude has passed on, I liked the epitaph: Great by Birth, Greater by Marriage, Greatest in her offspring =] I thought it was lovely, especially like it mentions in the book, that it wasn't overshadowed by her late husband. (hide spoiler)]

Oops I missed your spoilers when I was commenting in my last message oops. So I'm sorry if I've repeated some stuff. I'll read them now for when you got up to Chapter 21 and 23

In response to your spoilers up to Chapter 23: (view spoiler)[I have a feeling and I hope it works out this way, that Henry may not encounter Ranulf for a little while and when they do evetually meet again all will be forgiven. *fingers crossed*

Yes I did think that about Rosamund, for such an 'innocent' she did know what she wanted, but for some reason I think she may actually like him very much even love him. Possibly from there meeting in Woodstock when she bumped into him in the gardens, perhaps she saw him like a night in shining armour, wondering about her safety and maybe that was it for her. I didn't think she was in it for her family, but I swear I recently read somewhere that her family do want her to ask for favours for the family.. do you remember this?

Unfortunately, I think you could be right there about not caring about her unborn child and maybe hoping to lose it. It was pretty mad but I can defo understand why. From what I've read in The Welsh princes about John, it doesn't like her was very much loved at all. I was hoping that Henry would have been more discreet with Rosamund, and I think I even just read that he's going to invite her to his Christmas Court whilst Eleanor holds her own elsewhere, urgh! (Chaper 26)

I'll defo agree with you there, Maud is fast becoming another of my favourites.

I'm liking Will Marshal too, he's just has his ransom paid by none of than the Queen, I had a good feeling she would do that =] I can't wait to read more about him.

This might sound silly, but I still don't know 100% what's going on with Thomas Becket and Henry, the religious/political side of things can confuse me at bit. (hide spoiler)]

I'm up to Chapter 32.

(view spoiler)[I don't fully understand what's going on between Henry and Thomas Becket either. I know the basics behind it but it was a very complicated situation and I doubt we will ever know for certain why things worked out the way they did. To me, it feels like a rivalry that got completely out of hand and went past the point of no return. I liked the part where Henry was thinking about his former friendship with Becket and how it had been destroyed by circumstances that he did not fully understand. I think that summed up the complexity of the situation really well. If the King himself didn't know how things got so out of control, what chance do the rest of us have to make sense of it all? Whatever the reasons behind it, Becket is now in serious trouble and you can see his allies are getting desperate and are worried about his safety. Although I don't really like Becket, I do feel sorry for him when you see how frail he has become. One thing I found interesting was the part where someone (I forget who) was describing how he punished himself whilst he was in exile and one of the ways he did it was by immersing himself in the sewers. I wonder if that is true? It's pretty horrible if it is! It can't gave done his health much good!

Rosamund - I think she does genuinely love Henry. Also, her family do want her to ask for favours for them but she felt really uncomfortable about doing so, so whether she will or not, I'm not sure. I don't like her family at all, particularly her mother. I think she has got airs and graces above her station now that her daughter is the king's concubine.

Ranulf and his family are back! :) It was good to see them again. Unfortunately there is still no reconciliation between himself and Henry but I remain hopeful. I can't imagine them not ever patching things up, they got on so well before.

Owain's death came as a bit of a shock. My first thought was that Cristyn might have done something to him, she was absolutely furious at how he reacted to Hywel when he performed at Owain's birthday celebration. However, he was 70 (which was considered very old during this time period) so it was probably just old age. Even if she had done something to him to hasten his death along, it backfired pretty spectacularly because he still named Hywel as his heir and not either of her sons. I am a bit worried about Hywel's safety now, he is going to have to watch his back because Cristyn seems like the sort of woman who will stop at nothing to get what she wants for her sons. I'm probably being a bit harsh on her but I just don't trust her. (hide spoiler)]

I've caught up to Chapter 32 myself now =]

I'm looking forward to reading about Marshal in Devil's brood. I'm hoping to get it some time next month, I foudn the exact copy I want and can get it for £10 just have to wait for one of my vouchers to come thrugh, so maybe we'll get to read it after the toppler if you like, if not July sometime. I'm really looking forward to it.

(view spoiler)[I was wondering Hal is young Henry, how did they get the nickname Hal? I do like the older brothers so far, I though Hal was quite kind to Richard when they were showing off with the Quantain?? I thought there was defo some early rivalry thugh, with Richard being a big jealous of his older brother, I'm sure they'll be at lot worse as time goes on. Haven't heard too mcuh about young Geoffrey yet though. I thought it was funny when Henry's sons were trying not to laugh when Louis son didn't want to ride the pony. I can imagine them repressing it and maybe trying to look innocent lol

I agree, it is shocking to see how their marriage has gone so far downhill. I wish he'd never spotted Rosamund, I thought for a short period when they saw each other again and they spent the night together he'd patch things up but nope, he just ignores the fact of Rosamund and that he's hurt his wife. I can't blame her for being cool with him the next morning. And well that's that I think. I think she' hardened her heart to him and like you said, looking out for herself more and her sons now, mainly Richard. I admire her to she is one of my fave characters alongside Maud, Ranulf and Marsall.

I was shocked that in a sense Becket is going to excommunicate those 3 bishops of London, Salisbury and even Archbishop of York =O But with those false letters from the first time he went to the pope with that wrong report. He can still use them and I thought that was pretty bad. He really is playing with fire, and I can see him demise coming awfully soon. Hah your right there lol I remember that now, there is no chance we can't follow if even Hnry dosn't undertand 100% what on the world is happening.

Yes 70 was very old back then asn't it, and it's amazing he lived so long, but I am worried about this too, when will Hywel be back and will Cristyn act as regent or get her sons to rule. I can imagine Hywel will be in some danger in Ireland as it is, let alone Cristyn hiring someone to murder him =/ eep

I'm hoping we haven't seen the last of Ranulf, he really is great, and I agree it fits into the story incredibly well, she did a great job, it seems to me he's in the scenes where we need him the most, acting as a go between, between what is going on in the Welsh world and what is happening in England, and helping us understand the royalty in Wales and how that all works etc. I have a feeling he'll be in this book at the end we'll see him and hopefully in the next but if no at least the end of this one. (hide spoiler)]

I've finished. I can't write too much at the moment cuz I'm soon to go out and won't be back until Tuesday.

(view spoiler)[I was so so sad that Hywel got murdered. I worried it would happen, and now all of Owain's domains have been divided up. We'll be able to read more about that in Princes.

I can't believe Henry was taking Rosamund to Ireland =O But he at least believes he can still talk to Eleanor, although he rarely takes her advice.

I'm glad we get to see Ranulf again. I feel like the book left on somewhat a sadder note but we know there is more to come.

OH and Becket's murder, woah I wasn't expecting it to be like that and in a Church =O it was really like that and that was pretty gruesome gosh! And only the newcome Grimm actually stood up to the murderers I couldn't believe that, I was pretty shocked no one else ran to Becket's aid. (hide spoiler)]

I'm sorry I can't write much more at the moment but I'll reply to anything when I get back.

I finished yesterday too.

(view spoiler)[I was both sad and angry that Hywel got murdered. The saddest part was when Ranulf found him and held his hand as he was dying :( I was willing him to hold on until help arrived in the hope that he would recover but he was obviously too badly injured. I cannot stand Cristyn or her sons! I hope they will be held accountable and punished for what they did but I bet they won't.

I'm glad that Ranulf and Henry made their peace at the end. It was good to see them laughing and joking with each other again. I agree, this book definitely ended on a sadder note than the first one did. What with Ranulf having to leave his home, the fallout from Becket's murder and the ongoing tension between Henry and Eleanor, I think we will be in for quite a rollercoaster ride in the next book.

Becket's murder was awful, wasn't it?! I have read several books that have mentioned it and seen a few documentaries about it but it always shocks me just how brutal and gruesome it was. I'm not at all surprised that only one person tried to help Becket. Some were probably so scared that they were literally paralysed by fear but others probably just didn't want to get involved in case there was some kind of retribution for them further down the line, so they just stood by and let it happen.

Was Henry responsible for Becket's death? In a way he was because he said some stupid things whilst in a temper but at the same time, he didn't want Becket murdered and he certainly never gave orders to that effect. Those knights took his words too literally and Becket died as a result. I just hope Henry learns to keep his temper in check better in the future.

I was a bit surprised that Henry took Rosamund with him to Ireland but she seems to be the one he is turning to right now. Although he can still talk to Eleanor, she seems to be keeping her distance from him at the moment, so I guess it makes sense that he is now looking to Rosamund for comfort. It's not going to make the situation with Eleanor any better though. (hide spoiler)]

This was another 4 star read for me. I really enjoyed it. I can't wait until we read Devil's Brood, I think that one will be really good. I might not be able to get to it in June but July should be fine.