Support for Indie Authors discussion

Wnen authors write fantasy it necessitates the invention of worlds.

And these worlds have to hang together. They have to have geography, laws, customs, peoples, foods, languages, and so on.

How do other writers keep it all in order? I keep notes. Obsessively. Draw maps.
How do others create their own worlds?

And are there any tricks you use?

Me? I write down the back stories for some of my characters.

Luckily I have one of those heads which holds all the weird details, locations and creatures. My law for magic is pretty easy and I bypass the language barriers by using a 'tinkers tongue charm' - a device which tinkers use when crossing borders.

Jane wrote: "Wnen authors write fantasy it necessitates the invention of worlds."

I don't write fantasy, but I have several worlds going. Or maybe they're all part of the same world? I'm not even sure sometimes myself.

I tend to keep notes on the really important stuff. Sometimes I just look things up in other stories to keep things straight. No real tricks, I'm afraid.

Wish I could write like that! I've tried writing fantasy, but so far all mine are realistic.

I really write SF not fantasy, but the same applies. I can be a little obsessive, not only do I have engineering drawings of my spaceships http://arcturian-spacefleet.com/the-l... I even have wiring diagrams.

One thing that I do insist on is that I never make a change to the backstory to get a character out of trouble. I do all the worldbuilding first, then regard it as carved in stone and write the story. That way I am guaranteed consistency, things always work the same way.

I also think it's important to build more world than I use. There are bits of spaceship that I have designed in great detail that never appear in the text. This both helps consistency and gives a sense of solidity to the background.

I write "test strips" for the characters, short passages where they get to show off their talents, or lack of same. I also write lots of background that I don't use.

I just fly by the seat of my pants and make stuff up on the go. When I do a second (third, fourth, etc) read through, I look for inconsistencies and anything that doesn't make sense. Whether it's laws that contradict each other or traits of a particular race or people, whatever. When I find something that doesn't match up I decide what I like better between the two and make corrections.

I find it easy to become lost and entangled in too much detail when world creating. My method is to write brief documents about the power brokers in the story (religions, empires, political factions, etc.) and only concern myself with what is important to the story at hand.

The problem with overdoing the world creation ahead of writing is that you become married to it. It becomes too precious, knowing how many hours you spent on it.

This can lead to a kind of stagnation in your stories. It makes it a lot harder 3/4 of the way through a book to pull an unexpected plot twist that turns on its head the whole concept of a particular character, power broker, or connection between power brokers.

So my general rule is to only do the world creation that's necessary at the time. Then, as developments happen on the fly, document them.

I once got literally 3/4 of the way through a novel before I forced myself to figure out who the bad guy(s) was(were). I had been flying by the seat of my pants and it just got to the point where I couldn't finish the book w/out creating a document I called "What's Really Going On." As soon as I had that blueprint, I rapidly finished the book.

Another method I've been experimenting with is working on world creation BY writing stories. I've done five standalone works in the same universe. Each one explores one aspect of that universe. As I describe new concepts and technologies (I'm another of the writers here who write SF rather than Fantasy), I document them in a glossary.

Since the stories take place in different places and at different times, I've often used different terms for the same thing, so the glossary is important to keep things straight.

Micah wrote: "I find it easy to become lost and entangled in too much detail when world creating. My method is to write brief documents about the power brokers in the story (religions, empires, political faction..."

OTOH I sometimes find that the immutable worldbuilding suggests the plot twists. Specifically my spaceships have artificial gravity, which has several problems. You can actually "fall off" a spaceship and get catapulted away into space by the "back lobes" which push rather than pulling, and it makes spaceships interact in inconvenient ways. However when it all goes wrong and Jane's ship is falling into the sun it's the same artificial gravity that gets her out.

Because my book world is based on AD&D and Pathfinder campaigns I've run over the last 20+ years, I have stacks of notes and lore and everything else - all subject to change before inclusion, of course - so most of the groundwork was already there.

R. wrote: "OTOH I sometimes find that the immutable worldbuilding suggests the plot twists. Specifically my spaceships have artificial gravity, which has several problems. You can actually "fall off" a spaceship ..."

I do think it's important, especially in SF, to begin world creation with immutable assumptions:

Do Aliens exist: Yes/No
FTL: Yes/No
Artificial Gravity: Yes/No
...etc.

Those structural parts of world building create the framework within which the hard work of world creation happens: social structures, political alliances, theology, political boundaries, myths and legends, historical events, and behind the scenes machinations.

I suppose in Fantasy there would be similar structural assumptions to get out of the way:

Magic exists: Yes/No
Magic's Nature: God-given, words of power, component-based, etc.
Spiritual Creatures exist: Yes/No
...etc.

Spreadsheets are the magic that keeps fantasy worlds from imploding. Without science, the magic fails.
At least for me.

The rules of the magic, are what keep the magic alive.

Organization is vital for me when it comes to keeping track of things. In my long novels at least. In my short stories the rules are always different, but are short enough to keep track of in my head. So with those ones it is just some notes if I need them.

:)

That's one of the things that Scrivener is good for. I do all of my research, create my world, build my spaceship, create monsters, create my characters complete with full backgrounds, develop my alien society complete with religion, and general philosophies, and have it all there at my fingertips in one program to refer to.

So, I guess my advice is to find a great program that helps you organize everything in an easy to access manner, and use it!

I just came across this worksheet on Tanya Gold's (editor) website. Looks pretty comprehensive. There's also a character worksheet. http://tanyagold.com/resources/world-...

I base my fantasy world on 12th to 15th century Scotland and Ireland, using the names of actual places. So research is very important. Notebooks are a life saver! Since I am writing a series each book has it's own set of notes. I also write back stories on the characters, I feel it helps them to evolve and grow as the story unfolds. But I feel really listening to what grabbed your readers, scenes they found the most memorable or moving also helps you to shape future events and landscapes. I also prefer to use abilities and gifts rather than outright magic.

We don't write fantasy, but sci-fi, however the same issues apply. I agree with Micah that it's all to easy to get wrapped up in "world building". I think this can create two problems: 1) distracting from writing the story, and 2) a tendency to want to get a "return" on all the creative effort we have invested by letting the world building also distract the readers.

Since we feel the world is there to serve the story, not the other way around, we create details as we go along. Now, in our case, that did run into a lot of details. So we wrote a glossary we could refer to later for the sake of consistency. We made some maps and developed a spreadsheet to calculate distances and transit times for the same reason.

We continue to use the glossary and and we continue to make up details when we see a need. We try to avoid doing anything that paints us into a corner in regards to future ideas or developments.

I make it up as I go along, but make sure to keep notes on major components of the culture, e.g. religion, milestones, wars etc. Readers are much sharper at spotting discrepancies than you'd think!

Owen says the world is there to serve the story, and I couldn't agree more. However the world does have to hang together, because if it doesn't it irritates readers big time.

That's why I have maps for geography. And copious notes for everything else.

Sometimes, of course, something changes midstream, and that necessitates a return to the start at some time to make sure everything still makes sense. I once moved a whole country from north of where the action is set to east. My proof reader wasn't amused. In fact she called me a knobhead.... Lesson learned.

I think at the moment I have about three basic 'realms' (fantasy worlds to write stories in, which never cross over into each other) the first is the one I've done the most world-building for. It's really a whole planet, covered with countries of varying political tendencies, occupied by two seperate humanoid species, and lasting for a couple thousand years so I can write stories from any time period there :) other than stories, I don't really have a lot written down for it. It's been rattling around in my mind since I was nine, so it's kind of like a second home for me :)

The other two 'realms' are just playgrounds for short stories, one for comedic fantasy and the other for reflective fantasy--the main difference being, the first realm has magic and dragons, while the second has warlords and politics.

Usually I don't go excessively in-depth with world-building, since it tends to trip me up story-wise, but I love reading about detailed fantasy realms with intricate political and magic systems :)

Jane wrote: "Sometimes, of course, something changes midstream, and that necessitates a return to the start at some time to make sure everything still makes sense. I once moved a whole country from north of where the action is set to east..."

Not a knobhead. In fact, kudos to you!

My warning about the dangers of a lot of pre-writing world creation was that if you hold the work you did on world creation too close to your heart, then it can act as a weight dragging you down and limiting your flexibility. You obviously didn't let that stop you, and that's the way it should be.

I've tried doing character sheets before writing but they have never ever helped me. I find out who the characters are as I write. They constantly surprise me. Whatever I put on their character sheets beforehand bears little resemblance to who they become in the story. So beyond "brown shoulder length hair, slim build with a too-bulbous butt" and all the other physical characteristics, I've found them useless.

I suspect, though, that world building is a lot like outlines: some people need it all done before writing, others feel dragged down by a too rigidly defined structure.

Maps? What are those? Consistency? Ph-shaw!

:)
Actually, I love fantasy world maps, that first page of a book that shows you all the places they will go! I loved those as a kid, and still do.

However, in my book the world is a jumbled up mess that is never explained. It is confusing, as there are deserts beside tundras, a city with a name that isn't visible on the map because it is cut off, and where things are in comparison to other places are really glazed over. The characters go where they go, they hardly ever stay long, and then it is forgotten.

In book 2 all that is said is that there are a bunch of spires on the continent that have elemental themes and a city spire in the centre.

The world is a plaything that I can edit anytime for the story, and I will never explain it, nor do I need to because nothing is set in stone...

Now, I did this on purpose. So... probably don't follow this advice! And even saying all of that... I still have a map hidden on a file in my computer that I secretly reference.

In my most recent book I put in the details as I went, and ended up making a star map to show the relative distances between planets, along with the travel time at "translight." I also drew a ship diagram, and had to specify the details of certain characters. Now that I'm seriously working on a sequel to that book, I have to keep track of what was done in the first book, especially the characters that continue into the sequel. Not always easy.

In my last book, unintentionally, but managed to have a clear approach. There are two universes. One is our own, where pre-made maps are available in abundance. The other is a broken up place where each region has its own rules and transition between sections is through hidden portals. Consistency can be kept with moderate effort.

OTOH I have tons of saved and written documents to have known history and alternate history in line.

And then there is the habit computers of whatever variant have of deciding they know better than you.

I have a character in my current mo called Harald. Or if I'm not very careful Harold or Harriet....

Pshaw

I would suggest a Novel Notebook. A binder where you keep all of the notes, pictures and anything else you've collected. If you need something to physically refer to, this is great.

I printed out a lot of mine but found that after awhile I didn't want to refer back to the "binder" itself, so I have a few folders on my computer for each of my projects where I collect that information as well. I call the folder "Novel Notebook" and have typed up versions of background information, locations, pictures, character summaries etc. etc.

I found that it was easier to use this method when I am actually in the middle of writing.

Hope that helps.

R. wrote: "I really write SF not fantasy, but the same applies. I can be a little obsessive, not only do I have engineering drawings of my spaceships http://arcturian-spacefleet.com/the-l......"

Aha! Another ship fanatic :) I do tend to go overboard on that kind of thing, partly to ensure consistency, but mainly because I enjoy it. Drawing maps and plans is an antidote to the frustrations that sometimes come from writing. An example from my current WIP is here: http://www.iansbott.com/the-workshop

Jane wrote: "Owen says the world is there to serve the story, and I couldn't agree more. However the world does have to hang together, because if it doesn't it irritates readers big time."

Amen to that! I have copious notes (Word, Excel, plus hand-drawn maps and plans. Now getting into using iDraw...) but only a fraction will ever find its way into the story. I use the worldbuilding to help me get my mind into the story so I can write about it from a vivid mental image.

Micah wrote: "I find it easy to become lost and entangled in too much detail when world creating. My method is to write brief documents about the power brokers in the story (religions, empires, political faction..."

This is pretty much how I handle world-building these days. Like you said, it's easy to get bogged down in world building, plus once I start writing things start to change, with new ideas and details popping up constantly as I write. Now when I do world build it's mostly getting the "big stuff" down - the stuff that's important to the overall plot - then letting the story dictate the rest of the world-building as I write.

I also started using a white board, so every time some big or small piece of world-building or plot building or whatever crops up while I'm writing or editing, I make note of it on the white board.

this is probably bad form but ummm i'm just winging lol. i'm writing short stories building up the City cuz i'm simple lol but i'm just kinda making things up as i go. no lore in mind, just whatever comes to the page and i fix it to keep things in check ^_^

For my sci-fi series, Shiva XIV, which is on the epic size, I have huge amounts of notes, character descriptions, scene by scene storyboards, and an ever growing glossary of names and alien terms, etc.

However, I have never been good at maps. Geography is so not my thing. I wish it was, though. I've always envied authors who can map out their own world and even draw it. Of course, I'm largely dealing with planets, rather than countries and towns, but I'd still love it if I could do a galactic map. I've always wished I could do whole languages like Tolkien as well. But... Tolkien is one of a kind. ;)

Historical fiction means research. I have detailed maps of the landscapes and structures in and around Mycenae and Knossos, to name a few places. For my novel about the history of Knossos, I had to know minute details like how the drains were constructed, which frescoes belonged to which periods, when the various buildings were destroyed and rebuilt. About Minoan society and thought, there's not a lot of information, but certain things can be inferred through available evidence. Servants at Knossos in the later phase, for example, had mostly Greek names, so they were either native Greeks or native Minoans who took Greek names for prestige reasons. Women workers were listed by name on the tablets, so they may have had more freedom than in societies like Mycenae or Pylos where they're not named at all.

Michael wrote: "this is probably bad form but ummm i'm just winging lol. i'm writing short stories building up the City cuz i'm simple lol but i'm just kinda making things up as i go. no lore in mind, just whateve..."

IMHO there is no such thing as "bad form" in the writing process. All that matters are the words we choose to publish. No marks added or deducted for how we get there.

Jane wrote: "And then there is the habit computers of whatever variant have of deciding they know better than you.

I have a character in my current mo called Harald. Or if I'm not very careful Harold or Harrie..."

Know the problem. I once worked with an editor whose name was Roden. Could I stop the spell checker trying to change it to Rodent?

So I am able to keep a lot of details in my head, but after a while, (and several books in a series, and multiple series), I worry I might mix things up, and re-reading my books every time I want to double check something is time consuming.

I use OneNote to organise everything, including details on my world like customs, phrases, religion, traditions, etc. It's nice because you can have a notebook for each world or series, then tabs for categories and each tab can have pages, so if you're looking at creating something very detailed and you have the patience, you can organise it all so it is relatively easy to drill down and find what you want.

When I am developing an alternate world, I keep notes of place names, characteristics of the area, and names of the main people in that place. Each of my alternate worlds has its own underlying mythic and/or philosophical system, although there are themes that run through all my fantasy novels. For example, I incorporate some Pagan earth-based themes and practices from the Western mystery tradition, as well as exploring the dynamics that emerge from different beliefs (one God/multiple Gods and Goddesses). I research the mythology I'm working with and sometimes use excerpts from ancient texts. In a way that keeps me "honest", as the underlying principles stay consistent. I also check facts rather than just inventing as I go along e.g. for my latest fantasy series I have researched how ancient Nordic boats were built; whether ancient Nordic shields floated; how to make cloudberry cream etc. I like the mix of "real" and imagined in creating alternate worlds.

Kaalii wrote: "When I am developing an alternate world, I keep notes of place names, characteristics of the area, and names of the main people in that place. Each of my alternate worlds has its own underlying myt..."

Yes. Absolutely. I think we need to have an element of what we'll call reality, for want of a better word, or nothing actually fits together. I find it frustrating to start reading a book and find it stretches my credulity too far, so I try not to do that when I write. I think readers have to be able to believe in the world writers create or they won't be able to relate to it. And then they don't care what happens to the characters so reading becomes sterile and not enjoyable. The person who reads my manuscripts is very hot on continuity and that sort of stuff, but she is also perfectly willing to tell me when an idea for something in an alternate world jars with the reader. It can be frustrating to abandon a cherished concept, but she hasn't been wrong so far...

I have an excellent book by Philip Athans called "Writing Monsters" that goes through the whole process of creating a monster. It's just me, but I get frustrated when a writer just throws a creature out there than makes no sense for its environment. This book walks me through the process of describing the monster, determining what it eats, where it lives, how it moves around, etc. I don't usually get into evolution of the creature unless it's needed for the story, but I find this to be a great resource.

I don't get distracted by creating the details of the world, nor do I want to distract the reader with it. Instead, I believe that having the details of the world set in my mind, it makes it much more cohesive to know how the people of the planet interact with their surroundings.

In my WIP, the MC is walking through the woods with the female alien MC when they come up on a huge bear like creature. His reaction is to pull out his laser pistol and blast it, but she stops him. It turns out that the creature is injured, and she helps it by caring for its wound. I wanted this scene to show the way these people interact with the animals around them, so it served a valuable purpose. If I was just putting a monster in there for no reason, it wouldn't enhance the story any.

Lyra wrote: "For my sci-fi series, Shiva XIV, which is on the epic size, I have huge amounts of notes, character descriptions, scene by scene storyboards, and an ever growing glossary of names and alien terms...

good thing it's a series. that's a lot of time investment. with all the effort that fantasy and sci-fi writers put into world building, one book would be a waste. in fact, with all this work, why not sell it. Foehner Wells recently created a pronunciation guide in an audio file for Fluency. she could sell that as an audio book.

Micah wrote: " it's important, especially in SF, to begin world creation with immutable assumptions... in Fantasy there would be similar structural assumptions..."

that is a good rule of thumb. i'd add that by the time the first book in the series to ready to be published, all of the rules of the universe should be established as canon.

Ian wrote: "R. wrote: "I really write SF not fantasy, but the same applies. I can be a little obsessive, not only do I have engineering drawings of my spaceships http://arcturian-spacefleet.com/the-l......"

I know nothing about ships or arms, but I read the Honor Harrington series religiously. I'd never catch an error about the wrong size gun on the wrong class ship, but there are people out there who do, so youze "hard" SF guys need to do all this. And more power to you.

::We're not worthy::

Me, I do soft fantasy. I thought I wouldn't have any world-building problems. Then I found I had to create an entire backstory that answers questions about how vampires can exist in a world where "everyone knows" there are no vampires -- enter Big Medico-Pharma and the visionary Lavalette family who founded what became an empire during the civil war. And nothing but the names are in the book!

as a God of my worlds I have to generate everything - how the magic and science works, the planetary systems all that. I also do deep character sheets. most don't like all that research but it helps me keep consistent and know my character's limitations. I once wrote myself into a corner with a magic type chatacter and could've pulled a deusex machina out my butt or invented a new spell but figured what my character could do in a situation like that (which I hadn't thought of encountering ). without my world book I created I'd prolly still be stuck or took a hack approach and called it done lolz

I noticed all my stories exist in the same universe but in various timelines and parts of the world . lolz at least the characters aren't aware of each other. XD

K.P. wrote: "all my stories exist in the same universe but in various timelines and parts of the world ."

not all of mine but quite a few of them. if you go through the trouble of creating that world, then one book would be such a waste.

Alex G wrote: "K.P. wrote: "all my stories exist in the same universe but in various timelines and parts of the world ."

not all of mine but quite a few of them. if you go through the trouble of creating that wo..."

I thought maybe I was going to do something similar, but so far my characters have come from different worlds.

The only thread seems to be that I do have a sort of pull towards Norse mythology, but that could be because I have a weakness for blonde men

I write historical fiction, but creating the "world"/setting can be just as challenging as in fantasy or sci-fi. I find that I not only need to keep the details of my "world" straight, but also how each character views that world. To do that, I often journal for my characters. I let them tell me what they see and how they feel about it. If I feel like I'm starting to lose perspective as I write, I go back and read the journal pages.

Right now I'm writing a 13 book far future mystery series. So yay me - I get to figure out a complicated multi-faction plot (where everyone is on their own side, including the MC) plus figure out the history, geography, and science of a far future Midwest US.

So right away I decided this was going to be hard SF. No hand-waving, unless you want to dispute how a dome large enough to have weather underneath it might hold its form. I'm thinking graphene or something similar.

Anyway. I got to the point where I was like I HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE VILLAINS ARE DOING AND WHY RIGHT NOW, because I was just winging it up to then and was beginning to feel crazy trying to hold it all in my head.

I have lots of timelines, character sheets (which are getting filled out as I go), spreadsheets, and so on. My goal is to have every plot thread arc done (and there are MANY) - as in I know basically what's going on and why - before I publish this second book. It'll make the rest go much faster.

Thirteen-book? Yikes.....

I guess the amount of background neede for that is humongous.

Hats off to Patricia.

This thread is getting more and more interesting and I'm guessing it'll be as frightening to some aspiring authors as it is fascinating to others

Thanks. It's not actually as huge as I made it sound. Although it might get bigger as time goes on :D

Gah, lost a previous post. Attempt deux...

I have the general milestones of a story in my head, and use OneNote to organise the details, lore and other minutiae that I like to include. Here is a screenie of my Notebook for my series 'The Void Chronicles' (large version here )



Sections are along the top, pages are along the right hand side. I also use OneNote to organise marketing/promotional stuff, like blogs, links, etc.

One of the things I love about OneNote is you can write anywhere on the page, include charts and graphs, and if you copy and paste from a Word document, it also includes a link to the file you copied it from. You can also save it locally only, or share the Notebook if you are collaborating with someone.

I try to build up personas for my characters - sayings, mannerisms - or I refer to something they mentioned in a previous chapter or book, and this helps me track all of that. I used to use Word and have separate headings for each type of information and that was so kludgey! I am in the process of transferring the last of those files into OneNote. =)

I have more or less abandoned Word altogether. I now use Pages on Mac. I find it easier and more intuitive.

Notes wise I'm still a pen and paper girl. I can scribble a note without breaking my concentration on the writing. Coming out of the work to write notes in a different program messes with my head.

But I'm old, and by inclination a Luddite (even if I am in love with my iPad and my Kindle).

I have never tried OneNote--honestly didn't even know I had it on my laptop. This looks like a wonderful tool to use as I am researching my next novel! Glad I saw this tip on here. My latest novel was set during the Mexican-American War. I'm sticking with the same timeframe, but changing locations. I'm having trouble organizing my notes and not mixing information from the last one. This app looks like it may work for me.

As this thread has grown, it has become obvious how much work we all put into our books. Getting it right is a recurring and reassuring theme.

Self publishing shouldn't be an excuse for turning out trash. I've come across some atrocities in my mumble-mumble years as a reader and I've always tried to make my own stuff as good as I can. Story, spelling, grammar and so on. Building a cohesive world for my characters to inhabit is just one part of that obsession.

I'm proud to be part of a group of folks who obviously feel the same.

Let's hear it for perfectionists.