Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

Is there a place to discuss changing words and phrases?

For instance the history of the word "famous", as used by Regency characters?

If there isn't, there should be!

I often find myself looking up the names of fabrics, esp in the Georgians. They didn't wear muslin all the time and it wasn't the same fabric American quilters refer to.

What a neat idea. I think the way words and phrases change over time is just fascinating. What is it about 'famous' that grabs you Howard?

I have never in person heard someone use it (the word "famous") the way Heyer's characters use it. I'm curious about where and when that usage is - and how it came about. I expect I inferred its meaning correctly, but wonder how that came about.

But that was just one example. Another example (which I have seen), is a link to show the various vehicles that Sophie looked at before buying.

You can find it in period letters and fiction of the late seventeen hundreds. It seems to have come into fashion as an exclamation, kind of like "Radical!" was thirty years ago, and "Cool!" has been for pretty much the latter half of the twentieth century. "Capital!" was another such exclamation during the period, and "Jupiter!"

From what I've seen as the divide between women's language and men's, it was considered 'fast' or vulgar for a woman to exclaim "Jupiter" unless she was older, and married, but anyone, male or female, young or old, could exclaim "Capital!"

I still remember learning the boxing lingo, and the thieves cant. Young women with brothers were more familiar with the forbidden territory of the male language. And gin, all the ways they talked about gin. "Blue ruin" was always a favorite. I think about that when the hub and I have the first gin and tonic of the summer. I remember learning all the references for wine and spirits, and, yes, all the references for driving vehicles. My best friend and I spent many happy summer hours looking up words in the encyclopedia and looking at pictures. I learned a lot about fashion and sewing just from the descriptions of shopping trips.

Did you discover the delightful books by John Ashton? I suspect he was one of Heyer's main sources, given that his books were coming out right before she was born and during her childhood. I discovering them moldering in my university library and couldn't believe no one had checked them out for decades. Such fun reading!

I shall have to check him out. These days I find the strangest things on Kindle, maybe John Ashton will be there. I remember reading some of the post-GH writers, there were never enough books to feed my habit, but many of them were less than memorable. They used her as a template, but did not have the touch she had.

You can find his books on Project Gutenberg:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/sear...
Lots of them too -- many illustrated.
Social England under the Regency, 2 vol. looks interesting.

Thanks, Jacquie!

Sherwood wrote: ". . . it was considered 'fast' or vulgar for a woman to exclaim "Jupiter" unless she was older, and married, . . . . ." I'm reminded of how the March family in Little Women was distressed when Jo exclaimed, "Christopher Columbus!" (In one of the sequels, when Jo is running her school for boys, one of them explains to a visitor that they've given the dog that name so that "Mrs. Baer's" favorite exclamation will seem to mean him. ???)

I loved that about Jo. It seemed terribly innocuous compared to the utterances of today.

I bought a version of 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue. Amazon has a bunch of versions with various prices. It's fascinating to see a bunch of words which now are normal - and lots of words and phrases showing just how mean things were back then.

MaryC wrote: "Sherwood wrote: ". . . it was considered 'fast' or vulgar for a woman to exclaim "Jupiter" unless she was older, and married, . . . . ." I'm reminded of how the March family in Little Women was dis..."

Only just apropos, but until I was quite adult I hadn't realised 'Marmee' was the American pronunciation of 'Mummy'. I just though it was a March family thing !
( I lived a sheltered parochial country English life in those days )

Barbara wrote: "MaryC wrote: "Sherwood wrote: ". . . it was considered 'fast' or vulgar for a woman to exclaim "Jupiter" unless she was older, and married, . . . . ." I'm reminded of how the March family in Little..."

I knew that "Mummy" was a British pronunciation of "Mommy", but I "Marmee" is a pronunciation I haven't heard.

Marmee? I have never heard that either, but I think that Rs are pronounced differently in English speaking countries today. My Aussie friend is always omitting Rs that I expect to be pronounced, only he says that he IS pronouncing them, just that my ears can not hear it correctly!

In the US, if there is an R in a word, usually you will hear it pronounced as RRR. His Aussie Rs sound like AH to my ears. So when he says the word liver, I hear livah. I pronounce it liv- errr.

So perhaps "Marmee" is like that, more Mahmee then Marrrmee.

Well, that looks a hot mess.

Wasn’t Marmee what the girls in Little Women called their mother? It might be a Northeast or New England regionalism.

Not a northeast or New England regionalism that I've ever heard, speaking as a life-long resident. I think it was a March family thing. Bostonians (at least, the old Boston accent you don't often hear outside of a few parts of town) aren't much into the letter R either. :)

Hmm, a mystery! Maybe we need to locate the tendency elsewhere. I know some midwesterners stick Rs into odd places—if nothing else, listening to Charlie Rose deliver the news every morning tells me that! He was talking about “Alberter, Canada,” today.

Abigail wrote: "Hmm, a mystery! Maybe we need to locate the tendency elsewhere. I know some midwesterners stick Rs into odd places—if nothing else, listening to Charlie Rose deliver the news every morning tells me..."

My wife says "warsh" and "Warshington".

My mom did, too, until my dad broke her of the habit. She was from Southern Ohio, where that pronunciation was common.

Kim wrote: "My mom did, too, until my dad broke her of the habit. She was from Southern Ohio, where that pronunciation was common." My wife is from St. Louis.

Back to "Marmee"--taking a quick look through a book on my e-reader that I haven't read yet, Marmee and Louisa: The Untold Story of Louisa May Alcott and Her Mother, I think it's what Louisa called her mother, Abigail Alcott.

Marissa wrote: "Back to "Marmee"--taking a quick look through a book on my e-reader that I haven't read yet, Marmee and Louisa: The Untold Story of Louisa May Alcott and Her Mother, I think it's what Louisa called her mother, Abigail Alcott. ..."

Yes, it's peculiar to the Alcott family as a childish way of saying Mommy. I never thought about the accent... I guess it would be more like Mahmee wouldn't it? Though Louisa and her older sister Anna were born in Pennsylvania.

I can't actually distinguish ( at least on paper as it were) between all the different pronunications of mommy and marmee and mahmee ,they all sound like the same American way of saying Mummy to me.
I expect exactly the same thing is true of many English accents to American ears !

I wonder if it's the case that in other countries children start saying Mum (rather than Mummy) and Dad (rather than Daddy) quite young to avoid sounding childish? I get the impression that in some countries even adults say "Daddy", which we don't tend to do here in the UK -- I think?

With the caveat that "in some countries even adults say 'Daddy'", we realize that this is "some adults". Things change around the U.S., in different families, and within one family.

The play "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" has a character called "Big Daddy".

Lots of families will call grandparents words that may be mis-pronunciations that grandchildren had.

I've seen one kid call his parent father and his sibling called him Dad.

Barbara wrote: "…until I was quite adult I hadn't realised 'Marmee' was the American pronunciation of 'Mummy'. I just though it was a March family thing !
( I lived a sheltered parochial country English life in those days ) ..."

I think that it is just a March family thing. I grew up near Concord (where the March & Alcott families lived) and don't know anyone who uses this term. Generally it is "Mommy" when quite small and "Mom" thereafter.

HJ wrote: " I get the impression that in some countries even adults say "Daddy", which we don't tend to do here in the UK -- I think?"

In the US, at least in my region, many women call their fathers "Daddy" all their lives. I know of only one man who did.

I always wondered about the song "My Heart Belongs To Daddy". It's implication of an incestuous relationship (I know, it isn't really that), bothers me.

A lot of older NZ men call their wives Mum. My husband knows he is dead meat if he ever does that!

I think, as I remember the context, it is more "sugar" daddy, which is not a whole lot better.

MaryC wrote: "HJ wrote: " I get the impression that in some countries even adults say "Daddy", which we don't tend to do here in the UK -- I think?"

In the US, at least in my region, many women call their fathe..."

Some posh people say 'mummy' and 'daddy' all their lives in the UK . Never heard it here in Oz after young childhood.

And I still can't 'hear' the difference between 'marmee' and 'mommy' , sorry Leslie!