Support for Indie Authors discussion

I've been trying to make it as a writer since 2008. I've been an indie writer since 2010. And I feel like I'm wasting my time and life trying to be something I'm not.

When does it stop being "determined" and start being "stupid" to continue at this with little to no results?

Ahmed wrote: "When does it stop being "determined" and start being "stupid" to continue at this with little to no results? "

There is only one person who can answer that. What you consider stupid, I might consider successful.

When you say make it, do you mean financial stability? Fame? Best seller list? These are all different goals. Financial stability being the most difficult to attain.

But I truly feel you should start by evaluating what you mean when you say you are trying to be something you are not. Is thus your true belief or is it based on a perception of what an author is?

I must admit I feel the same way as you. Even have roughly the same timeline. They say all it takes is that one story and that one agent and blah blah blah. All you need is that one chance. Well it's just not that easy. The industry is highly subjective and even if you have the most amazing story you can never get anywhere because it just doesn't fit in the market.

To answer your question, you should only give up if you don't enjoy it anymore. If you find no joy in writing then why do it? Do it for you, not money or fame. If your heart isn't in it anymore and it doesn't make you happy then so be it. But if you do still love the thrill of creating a story, then never give up.

You must be honest with yourself: are you trying to be an indie writer or are you trying to be a successful, acclaimed indie writer? Because if you have published anything that does make you an indie writer. There is nothing wrong with wanting success and all that comes with it but you must understand that the chances are higher that you will publish to make yourself and a few others happy than that you will have lots of sales and recognition.

It doesn't hurt to step back and take a holistic look at each step of your writing to publishing to marketing journey. Is your book well conceptualized? Well written? Edited thoroughly? Is the cover professionally done? Is your title and blurb catchy and engaging? Did you format your book scrupulously? Did you let beta readers examine your book for structure, flow and creative merit? Have you engaged your readers and formed relationships with them? Have you worked hard to get honest reviews? Do you actively promote on social media? Have you taken full advantage of message boards, forums and other online writer communities such as the one found here? Have you formed relationships with other authors both in your genre and otherwise? Do you support their efforts when you can? Have you developed your own brand through an author website and social networking? Do you read books on the art and craft of writing and marketing your book? Do you read extensively within your genre? Do you glance over trade articles or blogs? Have you written more than one book in the same genre in order to cement your brand? Do you target readers in that genre and market to them? Do you provide content and value based around your author brand or do you just ask people to buy or download your book? i could go on and on...

Even if you do these things there is no guarantee of success. But you will sleep much better at night knowing you didn't win the literary lottery through no fault of your own. In addition, if you do the things I've mentioned you will hands down achieve a sense of satisfaction and pride in what you create and put out there as a writer. the discount bin at any bookstore is full of traditionally published works that didn't strike a chord with readers. Should indies expect more?

I wish you lots of success and I hope you don't give up on your dreams.

You have two books out in eight years. Only one is a novel. Even if you are marketing the heck out of it, it's only one book. Generally, if you want to make it as an indie author, you need to write more books.

So do you want to write more books?

Like Christina says only you can answer what success means to you.

Why did you start writing in the first place? Was it a creative outlet, did you feel compelled to get the words out? Did you need to tell your story no matter what? Or was it to be a best-selling author?

If you Google you'll find a list of well known authors who struggled for years and years until they "made it".

But if none of that matters to you, and you just want to write to tell a story, then write for you and no one else. After that, what will be will be but at least you have your story.

Good luck with what ever you decide :)

Do you want to be a house painter, or paint a house? Two different things, I think. Maybe examine your perspective, and change some priorities. That might help adjust how you feel about it.

I for one am pulling for you!

I started out around the same time as you and I went with PublishAmerica being an amateur not knowing what I was doing. I could've easily given up given all the B.S I went through with them and even after I got out and went on my own and the sales lacked. The sales aren't where I want them but am I giving up? No, because I enjoy what I do, I believe in what I do and that's something you have to ask yourself. If there's enjoyment and the reasons why you became a writer are still well in mind then keep at it, if your questioning it then perhaps it's time for a different passion and career.

I became a writer because I love it. I want to succeed financially in it because I want to keep doing it. I'm trying to write my second book but it feels like everything is interfering with that. And I thought I'd at least have good word of mouth with my writing to sustain it, but instead I have to keep playing marketing to try to help it instead of putting more out. And it feels like people in my personal life have no real faith in it because if I was good at it, I'd have made money from it.

I don't mean to ramble. I just… have no clue if I'm any good at this thing I thought I was good enough at to pursue as a career.

Ahmed wrote: "I'm trying to write my second book but..."

For what it's worth, the general consensus is that it takes about 5 books before an indie author gets noticed. One book might catapult you to success, but those stories are honestly few and far between. Keep plugging away!

I have heard the suggestion 80% of your time writing the next book and 20% on marketing. Your best strategy is to get more books out. And that's good news for you, because you love writing.

You've been letting other things interfere with your writing. Time to carve the time out and stick to it.

So, how can I tell if I'm any good at this, or just wasting my life?

what have people who read your book said about it?

Ahmed wrote: "So, how can I tell if I'm any good at this, or just wasting my life?"

Bottom line, Ahmed, only you can determine that. I'm not even sure what you're wanting to be judged on. "Any good at this" is a fairly vague term. Do you mean, are you a good enough writer? You seem to have some good reviews, so some people have enjoyed your writing. Could you be better? Well, we all could, so yes.

You have some good advice here, but I think the best came from P.D. In eight years you've put out one novel and one short work. I don't think the question, then, is so much about the quality of your work but the amount (or lack of) it. With so many books and so many authors out there, it's tough to get noticed. It's even tougher if you're trying to make it on one or two books.

You say you write because you love it. If so, then keep going with it. Whether you become financially successful or not shouldn't matter. Do it for the love of the craft.

But, if financial success is truly what you seek, it is difficult to get there with writing, but not impossible. You could wake up tomorrow with a million sales. You could see yourself flat line for the next five years. Most likely you'll fall somewhere in between those, though, but it's impossible to say where. The only thing that I can guarantee you in your future is you will fail if you give up.

You can't really judge by the first book. You learn in the process of writing. If you enjoy writing, keep it up. You will get better as you study the craft and write more.

Ahmed wrote: "I have no clue if I'm any good at this thing I thought I was good enough at to pursue as a career. "

if you want an objective evaluation of your writing, then coming from a western humanities education--i'm a little bit of a western classicist in that regard--if your story loosely meets the criteria in Poetics and your mechanics follow The Elements of Style, then i'd say you're good to go on the basics.

then, it comes down to the writing "style" that predominates in English-speaking countries and your target genre. the predominant style in English-speaking countries for more "entertainment-oriented" stories is exemplified by Jim Butcher's writing advice series.

* by "entertainment-oriented" i mean loosely stories that are plot-driven and have quite a bit of action rather than more language- or internal-thought-oriented. the latter of which i refer to as Ivory Tower Syndrome as it tends to stem from an academic environment and be evaluated by the academics. James Joyce--whose writing i happen to enjoy quite a bit--falls into that category.

Ahmed wrote: "I became a writer because I love it. I want to succeed financially in it because I want to keep doing it... I have to keep playing marketing to try to help it instead of putting more out."

right. you want to make a living at writing stories. so, let's get down to the nitty-gritty details.

#1: don't quit your day job.

#2: as far as marketing goes:

Platform: Get Noticed in a Noisy World is pretty good; although its ideas are not terribly original and it is directed more at blogging, its strong points are its comprehensiveness and attention to detail.

just to give an idea of the magnitude of a marketing campaign, one indie author says: "I...pitched 200 book bloggers...gave out hundreds of free copies in exchange for reviews" (ARCs, basically):

http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/mobile/am-...

#3: as far as writing more goes:

P.D. wrote: "Generally, if you want to make it as an indie author, you need to write more books."

which i'd generally agree with, but i'd add a little twist: you can also write short fiction. there's even flash fiction and you can actually get paid. going rate for SFWA-qualified markets is $0.06/word. for example, dailysciencefiction.com (i'm going to give them a go at the tail end of this month). you can check on sfwa.com for more.

there are also new websites for connecting writers with their niche readership coming online all the time; for example, wattpad, patreon.

furthermore, you have to find out what your niche is. (given, sometimes that niche might be too small to support your work. then it is up to you how much you want to change you're writing to suit a larger niche.) for example, romance and erotica are genres that are also very large niches, but even within them are smaller niches, such as bear shifters in romance.

You've made it as a writer: you've written a book. Unlike many others here, I won't suggest don't give up and stuff like that.
If you feel you are wasting your life on ephemeral hopes then maybe it's the right thing to do. You can write another 15 books and spend another 20 years on trying to get noticed, receiving an occasional good review and feeling that a little more effort and you gonna reap success, but in fact the chances are you might still be in the same place, as today. Don't put all your eggs into a writing basket and don't spend your life in illusions.
How good you are at writing is very subjective. Some might think your writing is great, while some others won't like it at all. You'd never know. If you take a close look, most bestsellers have a sizable portion of below 3 stars ratings. And commercial success is not necessarily a reflection of the quality of writing. I'm sure a great deal of excellent books are being overlooked while some mediocre stuff might fare much better.
Anyway my point is - if you enjoy writing, can realistically manage your expectations and measure the time and especially money you invest in promotion of your stuff, there is nothing wrong in continuing. It should be fun, but rarely it's also financially rewarding. If expectations of making it big time with a book result in acrimony and frustration, then quitting at least for a while is not a bad option. After all the book is there, offered for sale. You don't have to unpublish it and if the sales pick up you'd notice it at your bank account -:)

'Good' isn't something solely determined by sales. It's a difficult thing to accept, because it seems reasonable that quality should be rewarded but with writing, there are so many variables, (marketing, saturation, timing, etc), that it's not something that often makes sense. Sometimes an idea catches fire, despite a poor execution, and you can also see capable, prolific writers churning out quality with little notice.

If you enjoy writing and creating, and can make time to write, write. It is difficult, and as you know it can mean weekends of 'work', but if it fulfills you some how do it. If you feel your calling is to write, or it is one of your skills, I encourage you to explore it.

I agree with PD (& Dwayne) - focus on writing, less on marketing, build a corpus of work. It is important to get more novels out there - you are broadening your net and have a greater chance of enticing readers into your worlds if you have more than one or two offerings.

I think probably everyone here has had moments of frustration or internal debates over their future as a writer and what they want it to look like, what they hope for or think they can expect. People WANT to read books - they have a desire to be transported places, shown different perspectives, introduced to new ideas, and it can be exciting and exhilarating when you realise you've accomplished that. Let that try to drive you when you are at a low point.

I wish you the best of luck!

Best,
Holly

Are you 'good'? It all depends on who you ask. The man on your left might think you're the best thing since Shakespeare, but the woman on your right might disagree - she might think you're not so good.

Did you work with an editor before you published independently? Weren't there there any comments/feedback that helped you understand, at least in terms of your ability to convey the overall message via structure etc?

Even so, it's the individual reader who decides whether you're good or not. Whether your story is worth their time. Undoubtedly, writing more books will help you in terms of visibility and it's easier to market yourself with more work, as you can afford to give a book away for free to introduce yourself to readers. Particularly if you're writing a series.

It's so hard to give you a definitive answer. But I understand your frustration and encourage you to do a bit of soul-searching. Life is short and whatever you do, you should be happy.

All the best.

Anyone who says he wants to be a writer and isn’t writing, doesn’t.
—Ernest Hemingway

It is impossible to discourage real writers—they don't give a damn what you say, they're going to write.
—S. Lewis

My advice is to write every day. Treat it like a job, or brushing your teeth or seat belts. Do not wait for a muse or inspiration.

If you want to be a writer. Write.

Oh bless you. I think we've all felt this at some point.

Others have said it, but I will repeat in my own words.

Firstly; what is it you're trying to be?
You have a book 'out there' so you are a writer.

Do you want to be a succesful writer?
How do you measure success?
"success is not measured by what you accomplish, but by the opposition you have encountered, and the courage with which you have maintained the struggle against overwhelming odds."

I do appreciate your feelings. My author self is about to turn 3 years old. I have x5 novels out.
When I first hit the self publish button I had (naïve) dreams of becoming the next EL James.
But no, very few people stumble across me in this crowded market. Those who do find my books enjoy them though, so this gives me comfort and encouragement.

I wrote a snarky bog which may assist you:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&...

And if that doesn't help pop over to my 'I want a hug' post, and join in the group hugs:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Basically; write because you love it!

Sending you a big squishy hug anyway.

xx

Are you writing because you want to get rich or because you can't help yourself. Has the writing bug "bitten" you and you can't be happy unless you are writing. If the answer is the first one, by all means quit today. If writing makes you happy, then maybe what you need to access is if you need to take you writing skills to the next level, or maybe learn to aggressively market. The odds are, if you published only one book, you don't have any marketing leverage. The old adage is, the second book sells the first one, especially in a sequel or series. When the second book comes out, advertise it for free if it is book #2, and people will just have to buy book #1. Approximately 250,000 new books are published every year.

As some folks on this thread have pointed out, the issue is, are you writing because you cannot imagine not writing? Or because you want to be a writer? There are a lot of easier ways to make money. In fact, almost any way I can think of is easier.
I've been writing since I was a teenager. By the time I got to college, I wanted to be a writer. I managed to publish a couple of poems in college, and wrote a novel that has never gotten past its first beta reader. He saved it for me for forty-some years, then gave it to my son, who gave it back to me. Soon after, I retired and was able to return to writing fiction. Interestingly enough, that was in 2008. That effort took me years and has become backstory for the novel I published in 2015. I expect to have a sequel out this summer. I write now because I cannot imagine not writing.
Sometimes life interposes itself into our dreams. My advice is, keep writing. You may have to find a way to earn a living along the way. But keep writing. If you have been bitten by the writing bug, you will find a way to scratch that itch. It may be now. It may be later. If you're fortunate, friends will help along the way.

Ahmed wrote: "I became a writer because I love it. I want to succeed financially in it because I want to keep doing it. I'm trying to write my second book but it feels like everything is interfering with that. A..."

Ahmed, I think most of us have been there. There have been many times when I've questioned my sanity in choosing the path that I have, especially since I have a family to support.

Sometimes, writing in a completely different genre can help, as does taking a break for a while. My view on when it's time to quit is when I no longer enjoy it. I haven't got there yet, so I keep plugging away, no matter how gloomy it looks.

Maybe you need to take a break. I felt in a similar situation at the start of the year and took a one month break. Didn't write, hardly read, and enjoyed my life. When I returned, it was with a new passion that made writing a lot easier. As for success, as others have said, only you can define it for yourself.

Many of us have felt what you're feeling and have asked the same question. Judging from the comments above, quite a number of us have arrived at the same answer. It's important to realistically evaluate what we mean by success. If it's for our writing to provide a source of income we can live on comfortably, we're probably going to be disappointed. Sorry, but that's true, and not just for writers. It's true for the vast majority musicians, actors, painters, and talented artists of all types. The quality of our work seems to be only one factor for that kind of success, and it may not be the most important one. If we view our writing as a hobby, though, then success comes from completing a project. If you publish it and someone writes a nice review, that's bonus. If some Hollywood producer offers you mega-bucks for the movie rights, that's great, but it's extremely unlikely and not the best way for a writer, especially an indie writer, to measure success. I enjoy writing. I'm about to release my eighth novel this month. I expect I'll never recoup the money I spent getting it ready for publication, let alone compensate me for the time I put into it. But money is a poor way to measure the true value of a hobby (and a great many other things). If I use it as my measure of success for writing, then I've been a failure. But if I regard it has a hobby, I've done pretty well.

Mark wrote: "Are you 'good'? It all depends on who you ask. The man on your left might think you're the best thing since Shakespeare, but the woman on your right might disagree - she might think you're not so g..."

Tons of good advice!!

My 2 cents: don't let others answer the "good" question for you.
If yes, then what?
If no, then what?

Define yourself!
Good lucks!

hehe As long as one can entertain themselves reading (and writing) their own books, that's what counts. At least it what counts for me. I'm always surprised and happy when I see others do too but that's just like a bonus.

Ahmed wrote: " or just wasting my life?"

Your profile states --freelance writer reviewing films, video games, and entertainment news. This is not a waste of effort!

Before I became an Indie Author I sold my writing skills to Corporate America as well as doing freelance work just as you are. It is not a waste of time. No matter where you are using your writing skill it is a mark of success because you are being paid for the product you craft. I jumped into the Indie Author scene very late in life because it has given me an avenue to accomplish a life goal. That's after I recovered from Corporate America burn out then set about fanning the ashes to ignite the creative spark again.

Seriously consider the comments made here and delve deeply into what your definition of success is. I'm very, very pragmatic about this whole Indie Author scene. There's just too much good (and bad) competition out there to hang life-altering expectations of hitting the "lottery ticket of book sales and fame". Give consideration to this -- Successful writers are found in many disciplines. The Indie Author venue is just one of them.

Well, you do have to read other books too! :-)

But if anyone is in a GR group that really reads the book, the opinions on the current read(s) can be total opposites. Some will say terrible! Some say great! So need to make up your own mind!

I can't add much more to what everyone before me has already pointed out, other than corroborate or refute. If you truly enjoy writing and intrinsically know you have "the gift" of wordsmithing, you'll have no choice but to further your creative endeavors. It's not about pleasing people other than yourself; it's not about sales for measuring success. I'll venture to say that most of us here are in the same boat, trying our hardest to increase author visibility to enhance readership. For me, it's about gaining readership, not sales.

Wishing you all the best as you confront and overcome ...

I understand how you feel, as I'm going through the same thing. So what I did, because I really do like to write stories and always have since childhood, is I mapped out my writing projects for the next five years to give me incentive to do the next five books. I plan on releasing one book a year as a goal. As far as people in your personal life not paying attention to your books, not believing in you etc., my entire family didn't even bother to read my very first novel even though I had a book signing and everything. My mother read it and one cousin, and that's it. They came and ate and drank and bought copies, which I sold over 100 of to them and a few of the other strangers that came to the event, but to this day have not read a single page of my book. And even though I had two more projects after that, they haven't even bothered to ask me what they're about or how it's going with my upcoming projects, nothing. They know it means a big deal to me and if they don't care enough to support me, that's THEIR problem. I don't let what they think or don't think define who I am when it comes to writing. I just plan to keep putting out books for as long as I can. I know financial problems can cause difficulties when you're trying to focus on writing, as I've been out of full-time work for the last four years. So I decided to make my own job and I do custom cakes to help with finances and I write my books in the evening. I haven't written a single word of my newest project yet, as I've been sick most of this year and just got out of the hospital where I had to have two surgeries, so I am still recovering. But I'm not letting any of this get me down because I enjoy writing and I want to keep putting out stories. I figure somebody somewhere will eventually gain interest in me and my books or maybe they won't. The point is I'm doing something that I enjoy and basically I'm just sharing my stories with other people. I hope you have good luck and don't let this get you down just keep plugging away. It'll come.

Erica

Joining SIA is really valuable, especially if a person has not yet published or is just starting out. It helps with setting goals and expectations and those are really, really important!! Good luck!

To me, nothing you do creative is a waste of time. Whether you are selling or not, you're telling your stories and getting them out there, which is my definition of success.

I have yet to sell 1000 copies of my books (4 total) and that could be considered failure, but since more than 1 person is reading them, that's success.

And being that I am disabled, and it takes me forever to write one book, let alone four, getting my work out there whether it sells is success. :)

Depends on how you look at it.

Thank you. :)

I think it all depends on your expectations,
Let's assume for the sake of the argument that you're writing on the same level as Shakespeare.

Still there are five and a half million titles on Amazon, written by about a million writers. Out of them only about a thousand is what you would call financially successful, and they pretty much dominate the market.

Getting to that place is no easy feat, even for another Shakespeare. You have to stand out amongst five and a half million works. George Martin for example was only successful with his fifth book. Anne Rice likewise wrote quite a few books before she succeeded with Interview with the Vampire.

I'm not saying you can't make it, or it can't be done. However to truly succeed you have to constantly keep at it. Write, edit, and improve your craft, because none of us is Shakespeare. Market your book, give lectures on creative writing, accept criticism in a professional manner and keep on writing. Eventually you might make it financially.

Though I do think the measure of success is that you write something that changes the way people think. If you can inspire your readers, you're already successful in my eyes. Not every great writer succeeded financially. Not every bad writer failed.

The stories of good writers you take with you all your life. The bad ones you forget and move on.

Just my thoughts,
Amit.

I think everyone has their own concept of what it means to be "a writer." Everyone has their own definition of "success." I was a storyteller long before I ever even learned how to write, and started honing my skills by writing for small newspapers and college journals, etc. Four years ago, when I published my first novel I had no fans. Today, with seven books under my belt, I have five fans. I call that success.....I will always be "a writer," whether I sell or not.

Amit wrote: "However to truly succeed you have to constantly keep at it. Write, edit, and improve your craft,..."


Standing ovation for this comment!

Studying the "craft of writing" and applying what's been learned should be high on the task list of every Indie Author. For me, everything I read is eventually broken down to analyze why something works or doesn't work. This applies to print media, websites, blogs and marketing materials in print and on TV. It's pretty much been a habit from the beginning of my writing journey.