Victorians! discussion

Hi, everyone!

This week's reading is about: Chapters 9-18.

In Penguin notes we read:

"Sergeant Troy: Frank Troy is ambiguously named: he is ‘frank’ in the sense of being open and outspoken in sexual preening, seductive admiration and captivation but not in the sense of being candid and guileless.
Similarly, whereas ‘Troy’ may invoke the Trojan city renowned for its courageous fighters (as Frank Troy will shortly display his fighting skills with the sword), ‘Troy’ also connotes a maze, labyrinth or twisted path (from Welsh and Anglo-Saxon usages), which aptly mirrors his twisting-and-turning unreliability and instability."

I found really interesting this way of seing things. Actually, this book is full of subtlety, full of biblical verses, mythology and latin sayings... It's a rich mixture that maybe doesn't pop at first. Do you have any other curiosities to share with us? Feel free to discuss about them here!

Hi Rose!

Speaking of names, there are certainly man Biblical ones: Bathsheba and Gabriel, of course, also Jacob, Joseph, Benjy (Benjamin?), Levi, Laban, Cain, Mathew, Mark, Jan (John?), Andrew.

Rose wrote: "In Penguin notes we read:

"Sergeant Troy: Frank Troy is ambiguously named: .."

Interesting. One always wonders how much of those connections wee deliberate, how many emerged from the unconscious but were connections deep in the brain, and how many are totally coincidental.

Frank is short for Francis. A saint's name.

I think Hardy is thinking churchyard here, with the names. The poem does say positive things about rural folk whose names are unknown and forgotten.

Speaking of Frank as frank, there’s a similar love story in James Joyce’s “Eveline” where Eveline is about to leave Dublin with a sailor called Frank who, indeed, might not be that frank. The song the soldiers sing in the Hardy novel, “The Girl I Left Behind Me”, is echoed in Ulysses as well. Not saying there’s a connection, I just found it interesting!

Do you follow Bathsheba's actions when she sends off the card to Boldwood? What WAS she thinking? It does not look realistic. It seems like an articificial way of moving the plot forward. But perhaps some one can strengthen my faith in the story?

Is it just that he looks like a man with no heart and she is teasing him with a random romantic card? She is not thinking of the consequences at all. Could she really not be thinking of how she herself would be linked to this deed?

Sorry that I am being silly, but the name Bathsheba spells Ba and Ba (like the sheep go "ba!") and in the middle there is the word sheep ("sheb") - :) !

Charlotte wrote: "Do you follow Bathsheba's actions when she sends off the card to Boldwood? What WAS she thinking? It does not look realistic. It seems like an articificial way of moving the plot forward. But perha..."

For me, it shows her strength and willing to go against convention. I felt it showed she was a risk taker and daring.

Charlotte wrote: "Do you follow Bathsheba's actions when she sends off the card to Boldwood? What WAS she thinking?"


That's exactly what went through my head. She comes across as utterly unpredictable, and not in a good way. Given what we know of Boldwood's reaction, she is rather cruel.

Bathsheba is a very self--absorbed young woman. it didn't occur to her what Gabriel would think when she essentially ran after him just to tell him "no" to his proposal. She just wanted him to know that her aunt was wrong about her availability. And likewise, it doesn't occur to her what the recipient of a valentine marked "marry me" will think. Bathsheba just wants his attention. She is an irresponsible flirt.

I will be "silly" with you then, Charlotte. I like that you found BA....BA bookending Bathsheba's name. Maybe Hardy thought of this too...or it was subconscious. :)

Kerstin wrote: "That's exactly what went through my head. She comes across as utterly unpredictable, and not in a good way. Given what we know of Boldwood's reaction, she is rather cruel."

But did she mean to be cruel? I thought it was an impulse somewhat like two girlfriends egging each other on, and that she thought it would be amusing. Little did she know.

Everyman wrote: "But did she mean to be cruel? I thought it was an impulse somewhat like two girlfriends egging each other on, and that she thought it would be amusing. Little did she know."

No, I don't think she meant to be cruel. And I got the same impression that she and Libby were egging each other on.
Were we ever told how old she is? I don't recall, other than that she is young.

Okay, now I'm going to think of her as Ba-sheep-a for the rest of the novel!

Sheepy-ness aside. She's an unusual heroine for the times. Very atypical. I love her independence and her self-confidence, but want to smack her upside the head over some of her behaviors and choices. I would have to agree that there's a lot of contradiction in the way she is portrayed. Half woman, half goofball teen.


Kerstin-
I think she's twenty for snow reason. Was it mentioned somewhere? When she was with her aunt perhaps?

Renee wrote: "I love her independence and her self-confidence, but want to smack her upside the head over some of her behaviors and choices. I would have to agree that there's a lot of contradiction in the way she is portrayed. Half woman, half goofball teen."

LOL!!

Was anyone else surprised that Sergeant Troy showed up at church? I just assumed he was a cad after poor Fanny humiliated herself throwing snowballs at his window. But his trip up the aisle seemed to suggest he was willing to do the honorable thing.

Linda wrote: "Was anyone else surprised that Sergeant Troy showed up at church? I just assumed he was a cad after poor Fanny humiliated herself throwing snowballs at his window. But his trip up the aisle seemed ..."

That is not in the part of the book that we are discussing, is it?

This event is in chapter 16. I'm sorry if I wrote a spoiler.

Linda- you can edit in spoiler tags around wha t you've said. Move read this before but I'm not up to 16 yet so I dint know how spoiler-y you've been. You use the little < brackets > around the words spoiler and then /spoiler.

Renee wrote: "Linda- you can edit in spoiler tags around wha t you've said. Move read this before but I'm not up to 16 yet so I dint know how spoiler-y you've been. You use the little around the words spoiler a..."

Message I in this thread says: "This week's reading is about: Chapters 9-18." Linda writes @20: "This event is in chapter 16. I'm sorry if I wrote a spoiler."

It is not clear to me who owes an apology to whom, if anybody, or if this should be treated as just one of the facts of life (risks?) that go with discussing books with others. (Many of you know I have little patience with what I sometimes, perhaps unfairly, call "spoiler mania." And that is not to deny the importance of consideration for other readers in forums such as these.)

Sorry for stirring something up here, it is me who has not paid enough attention when reading! Earlier today I looked through the pages and couldn't find anything.

Good to have friends reading with me, so I do not miss out on anything! <3

I have to go back and read chapter 16, which is part of this discussion. I must have missed (view spoiler)[/a whole wedding! (hide spoiler)]

Charlotte wrote: "That is not in the part of the book that we are discussing, is it? "

Actually, it is. Week 2 reading is Chapters 9-18. It was in Chapter 16. No spoiler tags needed.

And it was a good point. I agree -- it does seem against Troy's character to have shown up to marry Fanny. And it must have been utterly humiliating to have to walk out of church having been jilted at the altar, or so he saw it. I can understand why he wasn't in any great hurry to go through it again.

Charlotte wrote: "I have to go back and read chapter 16, which is part of this discussion. I must have missed a whole wedding!"

But you didn't miss a wedding!

To Lisa and Everyman: I have found Troy in the church! The chapter 16 that we are talking about is not part of the main story in my book, can you believe it?! I happened to look through the appendixes and it is there, somewhere in the back of my book, in appendix 3. It was not strictly a part of the original magazine installments, so Penguin chose to leave it out! However, everything about Troy is crucial and relevant, so I find it quite irritating.

My book is a Penguin Classics published in 2013.

That IS really irritating! But also very interesting. I guess I thought Victorian authors might be allowed to edit a bit before publishing in book form, but I'm surprised at the edition of whole scenes. I wonder if they ever rewrote endings based on public opinion between magazine and book?

The text in my book follows the original holograph manuscript. It was submitted to "Cornhill Magazine" and Hardy never got it back. Chapter 16 was grafted on proof sheets for the magazine (following the advice of the Cornhill Magazine editor) and not part of the holograph manuscript. My book is not the new version that Hardy edited himself, when it was published in book form.

Charlotte wrote: "To Lisa and Everyman: I have found Troy in the church! The chapter 16 that we are talking about is not part of the main story in my book, can you believe it?! I happened to look through the appendi..."

Charlotte, I had the same problem! I was using the Penguin version too and since I got confused last week, I moved to the Oxford edition! The chapter is "All Saints and Souls", right?

It is not such a problem, though, you can read it in the Appendix and you're good to go! But I noticed the Oxford version has another chapter in the Appendix: "Sheep-rot chapter".

It seems to be a chapter Hardy didn't send to Leslie Stephen to be published in the Cornhill Magazine. So, one chapter was cut from the magazine and the other was never sent to the magazine.

A bit confusing, but the book is still amazing!

I also felt that Bathsheba's action in sending a Valentine to a stranger seemed completely unrealistic for that time-would someone trying to establish herself as an independent woman do something so reckless, or did she truly believe that it would remain anonymous? Thanks for the reminder of her running after Gabriel just to turn him down, however again it felt like she didn't stop to think, she just wanted to make sure she "got" her proposal, even if after thinking it over she decided to turn him down.

Does anyone have any biographical details about Hardy's romantic life up to this time?

Well, that explains it. I could see myself being confused too if I were reading the Penguin edition.

Fascinating about the left-out chapters. And no wonder you were confused, Charlotte, and completely explains why you thought it was a spoiler.

Frances wrote: "Does anyone have any biographical details about Hardy's romantic life up to this time? ..."

Hardy's romantic life was a complicated one. Several biographies used with my last reading of Jude, and I still haven't figured it out and its impact on his writing, although it most certainly seemed to have influenced both his stories and the attitudes he portrayed about women, many of them well ahead of his day.

For a start, you might try here: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/h... It is more the facts and not the interpretation of them, however. I don't remember which I thought best, but there are several very readable biographies of him that provide varying perspectives on the complex romantic life he lived. (Far from the Madding Crowd was published in 1874, revised in 1895 and 1901 editions, if you are trying to correlate it with where Hardy's romantic life was at those points.)

Here is one review with at least a couple of leads: https://www.theguardian.com/books/200...

Frances wrote: "I also felt that Bathsheba's action in sending a Valentine to a stranger seemed completely unrealistic for that time-would someone trying to establish herself as an independent woman do something s..."

Not biographical, but came across something while reading Austen. By Austen's time, Valentine's had become very popular, and it was no unusual for a woman to send one annonymously to a gentlemen.

That's very interesting! That actually makes the whole scene a little less weird.

Agreed-and yet to have it in her (presumably recognizable) handwriting with Marry Me on it still seems a bit strange

Renee wrote: "Sheepy-ness aside. She's an unusual heroine for the times. Very atypical. I love her independence and her self-confidence, but want to smack her upside the head over some of her behaviors and choic..."

"Half woman, half goofball teen." Yes, that's it exactly, isn't it! But she must be at least 21 if she is running her finances without a guardian. She seems quite immature in many ways. I'm a bit worried that she's not ready for the responsibility! She's clearly spending a lot of money buying all new stuff, even a new piano.

I've been reading a free digital version on my kindle so far, because I've been travelling, but I was going to switch to a penguin edition from the library. I better keep an eye on that! And now I wonder even more about the church scene. I was surprised that Troy would actually go to church to have the banns read. Now I know the scene was not part of the original manuscript I wonder even more. It was added in to make Troy appear in a better light? Why? Read on and find out, I guess.

I also wonder about Boldwood's interest in Fanny. It seemed a bit sinister at first, him riding around personally enquiring about her after she had asked Oak not to let anyone know she had gone. But then it becomes clear that Boldwood has had no interest in... er... "fanny" in general, and so is not likely to have had a fling with Fanny. And he seems genuinely concerned about her. What was his connection with her? Did it say? I need to read back and check. Something about him having taken care of her schooling? Did I dream that? :P