J.D. Robb discussion

Hold that thought for a few more hours...it's one of the many things to discuss about this book.

Just finished my re-read and re-listen of Vengeance........perfect timing!

Vengeance in Death is a Top Five for many who have read the entire series which is saying a lot. Whether this is your first time reading it or you've read it over & over - what makes Vengeance so special to you? Share your thoughts.

Jeanine wrote: "Just finished my re-read and re-listen of Vengeance........perfect timing!"

It is!! It's almost midnight here - which makes it the 8th - so we're starting! :)

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Vengeance in Death is a Top Five for many who have read the entire series which is saying a lot. Whether this is your first time reading it or you've read it over & over - what makes Vengeance so s..."

It is the perfect combination of plot, pacing, character revelation, and relationship development. And it is interesting to see Roarke truly torn between his past (Summerset) and the promise of his future (Eve). It was also rather hilarious to see them stumble along without Feeney. It shows how integral he is to Eve's team though McNab is a great addition.

I have to agree with Emerson. This is a great combination of everything. I think it's also we finally really get to see who and what Roarke is. The love story is just that much more firmly cemented because of this struggle by both Eve and Roarke.

I think it was brilliant that Feeney wasn't present because McNab needed to shine. He needed to be a character of some importance.

And then there is Summerset. We get to hear the real Marlena story.

In your opinion, what is the absolute best/most important event/scene occurring in Vengeance? Why?

Tough question. Lots of stand outs. i just can't pick one.

What stands out most - case or character development?

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "In your opinion, what is the absolute best/most important event/scene occurring in Vengeance? Why?"

For me the best scene is the scene where Eve's police issue blows up and Roarke searches for her, etc. Sigh....... The most important for me is probably the last scene where she takes a full body stunner hit for Summerset. That was huge in terms of the relationship between Eve and Summerset. 2nd place: the scene when Roarke confronts her and tells her she had no right to stand in front of him that way to protect him and he's forced to admit that she makes a point regarding gender, etc....that if it was her in danger, he would have done the same thing.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What stands out most - case or character development?"

This is a tougher call for me. If I had to choose, I would probably end up on the side of character development--for ALL of the main characters; there was a lot of really good character development in this one. On the other hand, the case holds its weight too. I think that this is one of the reasons that this installment is one of my very favorites; it is so rich in both areas. It is fast paced and suspenseful while it allows our characters to develop further.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Vengeance in Death is a Top Five for many who have read the entire series which is saying a lot. Whether this is your first time reading it or you've read it over & over - what makes Vengeance so s..."

Roarke and Summerset are forced to trust Eve with their past. Summerset is made to see that Eve loves Roarke as he does her; that there isn't anything she wouldn't do for Roarke or who he considers "his". She is part of the inner circle now, now and is not just Roarke's wife.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What stands out most - case or character development?"

I think without the one there wouldn't have been the other. Revenge was the obvious main theme of this book. But for me it was also about love. Roarke's love for Marlena and Summerset set him out on his quest for vengeance. Which brought about this case. Eve's love of Roarke and those he holds dear drove Eve to handle the case the way she did. So though the case was interesting it is the motives that was interesting for me.

I think Roarke going back to Dublin and the back alley and apartment he grew up in was full circle. His past drove him to be better than what he started out as and loving Eve has made him the better man that he never thought he could be.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What stands out most - case or character development?"

Definitely the case. The insidiousness of the Calhouns was kind of frightening although I was a little surprised that Eve didn't look more deeply into Audrey earlier. I thought the mix up in scheduling a date seemed pretty flimsy.

The Bates Motel quality of their relationship was tough to handle especially given that Liam had potential. It helped to reinforce all around the importance of a healthy family dynamic at an early age, especially regarding Roarke's memories of his father and Eve's memories of hers, and the absence of Liam's. Even Kevin proved to support that pattern though he was an incidental character.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What stands out most - case or character development?"

I think the character development stands out. The case even intertwined into characters pasts and had an effect on the relationships. It even allowed for Mcnab to come plowing into the book. With so much E-detective things to do, Feeney away, Roarke close to the case. Because the personal connections and the doing a lot of work from home, he came into their house, which allows him that bigger connection then just being handed stuff to do through the E-division.

Jeanine wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What stands out most - case or character development?"

This is a tougher call for me. If I had to choose, I would probably end up on the side of character devel..."

LIKE!!!

Michelle wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What stands out most - case or character development?"

I think without the one there wouldn't have been the other. Revenge was the obvious main theme of this bo..."

You're right....I hadn't thought of that.

I agree with you all.

This is one of those books that is a perfect example of what I mean when I say I'm most drawn to "character-driven" books. The case is intriguing, but the power for me in Vengeance is held in the hands of the characters - both good & evil. Seeking vengeance is a powerful motivator - often driving characters to extreme measures, sometimes even insanity. It can also drive good people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do.

Revenge/Vengeance drives this plot and in a roundabout way - it drives the character relationship development in this story. Let's talk about the characters who wielded their own brand of justice in this book & the reasons why. Were they all justified? Why or why not?

I think it's safe to say that vigilante justice is never right, but as Eve notes with disgust, cops on the take will never get the job done and given the horrifying brutality of what happened to Marlena, a fourteen year old girl....if even Tibble and Whitney were horrified by the hologram, then I am not sure Roarke was wrong. Summerset definitely wanted to follow protocol in going to the police so Mira's evaluation of him actually made him even more sympathetic.

Of all the characters, the least justified in her drive for vengeance was Mary Patricia Calhoun, in my opinion, especially because she used and manipulated her son in order to avenge a killer.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "This is one of those books that is a perfect example of what I mean when I say I'm most drawn to "character-driven" books."

That's an interesting observation.
While character development is important to me, I'm more of a plot driven reader. This might explain why, although I enjoyed Vengeance for the new nuances in Eve and Roarke, and Eve and Summerset's relationships, I preferred Ceremony because the Satanic sacrifice story was better.

Emerson wrote: "The Bates Motel quality of their relationship was tough to handle"

That's a great comparison. Mary Patricia turned her son into the perfect psychopath - a weapon to be wielded against those she believed wronged her. A seriously warped mind.

Lauren wrote: "Emerson wrote: "The Bates Motel quality of their relationship was tough to handle"

That's a great comparison. Mary Patricia turned her son into the perfect psychopath - a weapon to be wielded agai..."

Interesting that she either accepted the atrocities her husband committed or turned a blind eye to them and never blamed him for being a criminal, but she could blame Roarke for attempting to obtain his own brand of justice.

Emerson wrote: "Interesting that she either accepted the atrocities her husband committed"

She seemed to be oblivious to his crimes. I'm not even sure, she loved her husband. She saw him as the means by which God would provide her with her angelic child.

She sort of reminds me of the doctor's wife in the film "The Hand that Rocks the Cradle".

Lauren wrote: "Emerson wrote: "Interesting that she either accepted the atrocities her husband committed"

She seemed to be oblivious to his crimes. I'm not even sure, she loved her husband. She saw him as the me..."

I think the greatest irony here is that, unbeknownst to Roarke, the greatest threat to him after getting justice for Marlena came not from one of the criminals, but from one of their widows. Maybe her husband was a career criminal because he knew his wife was mentally unbalanced and he didn't want to create a home with her. Roarke obtained vengeance almost clinically and mathematically. He didn't look beyond the perpetrators themselves.

Emerson wrote: "I think it's safe to say that vigilante justice is never right, but as Eve notes with disgust, cops on the take will never get the job done and given the horrifying brutality of what happened to Ma..."

Well said. That's how I felt.

Lauren wrote: "Emerson wrote: "Interesting that she either accepted the atrocities her husband committed"

She seemed to be oblivious to his crimes. I'm not even sure, she loved her husband. She saw him as the me..."

I think her psychosis started before she got married. She wanted to become a nun but I think she was raped and then got married and widowed. She was unhinged and was never diagnosed with having a few screws lost never mind loose.

Emerson wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What stands out most - case or character development?"

Definitely the case. The insidiousness of the Calhouns was kind of frightening although I was a little su..."


LIKE!!

Emerson wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What stands out most - case or character development?"

Definitely the case. The insidiousness of the Calhouns was kind of frightening although I was a little su..."

Emerson wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Emerson wrote: "Interesting that she either accepted the atrocities her husband committed"

She seemed to be oblivious to his crimes. I'm not even sure, she loved her husband. She sa..."

Definitely. Very interesting thoughts.

Roarke: “Justice, Eve, is weak and thin without the underpinning of retribution.”
Eve: “What the hell are we doing together anyway?”
Roarke: “Leading lives that are often too interesting. Darling Eve, I wouldn’t change a moment.
Eve: “Me either.”

What did you think of the "riddles" used by the killer? Did they make sense? Could you "decipher" them? Why do you think the killer chose this method of delivering his messages? What did you learn about the killer from his riddles?

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think of the "riddles" used by the killer? Did they make sense? Could you "decipher" them? Why do you think the killer chose this method of delivering his messages? What did you learn ..."

I think doing the riddles and making it a game to play shows how much of a child the killer is. Like the life he lived and what his mother turned him to never allowed him to truly develop into an adult.

Michelle wrote: "I think her psychosis started before she got married."

I agree. She was never playing with a full deck!

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think of the "riddles" used by the killer? Did they make sense? Could you "decipher" them? Why do you think the killer chose this method of delivering his messages? What did you learn ..."

It was difficult to decipher them simply because I don't know enough about New York city, now or in the future ;0), to be able to figure them out.

Lauren wrote: "Michelle wrote: "I think her psychosis started before she got married."

I agree. She was never playing with a full deck!"

It's interesting though because as Audrey, she was educated, cultured, refined, artistic...all of the things that Summerset would have found attractive. Granted, he hadn't been seeing her long, but he never saw through her; he never had an inkling that something about her was off....Eve and her team never saw it either, until Eve found the painting in Summerset's quarters. Tells me she was as cold and calculating as she was crazy. Scary.....

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think of the "riddles" used by the killer? Did they make sense? Could you "decipher" them? Why do you think the killer chose this method of delivering his messages? What did you learn ..."

The religious elements of some of the riddles made sense but, as was mentioned earlier, the geographic parts of it were difficult to really appreciate, even if they were probably fictional because this is set in the future.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think of the "riddles" used by the killer? Did they make sense? Could you "decipher" them? Why do you think the killer chose this method of delivering his messages? What did you learn ..."

I personally have a hard time figuring out riddles..., but they are a really good vehicle for Nora to highlight in these stories how smart, bright, even brilliant Eve is. She and Roarke are both very bright and they typically have no problem figuring out these kinds of riddles or mysteries. I think they also add a layer of suspense because they push Eve to try to solve the riddles before the next victim dies. And, because it adds a layer of suspense, it adds a layer of frustration for her when she is unable to save the next one. Liam is playing "cat and mouse" with her.

I agree, Jeanine. The riddle & time element upped the suspense for me as Eve knew the "clock was ticking". It frustrated her trying to figure it out before someone else died.

Relationship development is huge in the In Death series, and this book is a good example of that, imo. Let's talk about some of the relationships & the things that occurred to either move them forward or strengthen them in some way - or things that at least caused one or the other character to gain respect for or more trust in the other. We'll start with:

Roarke & Eve
Summerset & Eve
and even Roarke & Summerset

Any other character relationships you feel changed enough to warrant discussion?

Share the one momentous moment that you will remember most when you think of VID.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Relationship development is huge in the In Death series, and this book is a good example of that, imo. Let's talk about some of the relationships & the things that occurred to either move them forw..."

Roarke and Summerset: I think that if the events of Glory in Death did not convince Summerset of how consuming Roarke's feelings are for her, the events here did. I also think that this helped set the parameters more clearly for Summerset, going forward, regarding how Roarke will prioritize the bonds he shares with both.

That said, regarding Eve and Summerset, the same holds true. Summerset sees the lengths Eve will go for Roarke and the people he loves, even if she does not like them. But most importantly, Summerset sees what a good cop truly stands for and that not all cops abuse the badge but contribute to its meaning in society.

I agree, Emerson. And - I think Roarke shows just how limitless his love of and trust in Eve is in Vengeance. He gives it all to her - trusts her to do what she must with it. I think this "scared" Summerset just a bit, knowing it gave Eve the power to "bury" them. And in the end, it raised his growing respect for her.

What did you think Eve's reaction was going to be when she discovered what Roarke had done as retribution for Marlena's death? Did she react as you expected? This was a big test of Eve's sense of right and wrong, given her tendency to see things as black or white so to speak. But, we've already seen examples of her walking a "gray" line in previous books. How did this story color it gray? Do you agree or disagree with her choice? As a cop, does she have a right to make that choice?

And, does knowing what Roarke did alter your image of the man in any way? Was it justified, iyo?

I just read VID, and I see how it can be someone's favorite of the series, although this is only as far as I've gotten.

With Eve knowing Roarke's past in more detail than a police officer would feel comfortable knowing, we don't really know what the time period envisioned fifty years in Robb's future of wars and revolts looked like. It sounded as if Ireland was under mob rule -- left, right and center.

I think that Eve accepts how Summerset and Roarke lived in an "eat or be eaten" subculture. What happened to Marlena was so horrific that it has haunted these two men since then. I hope they get some closure.

Since Eve stepped in front of Summerset, saving his life, I hope he treats her with more respect in future books.

I loved how close Eve and Roarke are becoming as a still newly-married couple. She is getting comfortable with love!

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Share the one momentous moment that you will remember most when you think of VID."

One scene I remember particularly is where Roarke, during a very intimate act, asks Eve to take "all of him," and I felt that was a reference to more than their immediate sexual moment.

His past was checkered, and he gave much of the gray area up when he fell in love with her. As the story illustrates, Eve did just that. She grew closer to Roarke and he to her. What a wonderful place to be!

While Audrey wanted to become a nun, as she stated, I did not get the sense that her pregnancy was the result of rape. I thought she gave in to her future husband, but I could be wrong here.

Either way, she was a creepy character. I was caught by surprise until near the end, even though the Mary-mother figured so importantly to the vengeance motif. Wow, what a misguided and hopeless character her son became. Her religious madness [I can't think of a better term for Audrey's condition] led to murder -- the complete opposite of what the BVM meant to most Catholics, imho.

Charlene wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Share the one momentous moment that you will remember most when you think of VID."

One scene I remember particularly is where Roarke, during a very intimate act..."

I agree, Charlene. One of my favorite scenes!

Vera wrote: "Finished the reread. Found a mixed up metaphor in this one. Is this the first time in the series? I didn't notice any in the previous books."

I wonder if we're thinking of the same thing, Vera. I noticed that Roarke corrected Eve's "golden horse" to "high horse."

Yea! The mixed up, funny metaphors start! We have to collect these as they increase & continue throughout the series. Some are hilarious!

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think Eve's reaction was going to be when she discovered what Roarke had done as retribution for Marlena's death? Did she react as you expected? This was a big test of Eve's sense of r..."

In rereading this series, I have been really surprised by how I had forgotten how strictly by the book Eve actually is not, early in the series. Given how determined she is to be strong and committed to the badge, she really shows how flexible she can be in her interpretation of what that entails. The way she used Nadine for example was pretty negligent and murky, even if it was well-intentioned.
The nature of Marlena's death and the shady nature of the original "investigation" is actually what introduced the gray into the case, not Roarke's vengeance or even Eve's need to play fast and loose with the rules, in my opinion. And that was beyond Eve's control. While I do not believe that it would have caused Roake and Summerset to turn away from a life of crime, a proper and authentic investigation into Marlena's attack and death probably would have made them less leery of law enforcement. So I did not think differently of Roarke after he revealed what he had done to the men involved, keeping in mind what he did to CJ Morse in Glory in Death. As a reader, I think I understood what lengths Roarke would go to to protect or avenge his own.

I enjoy reading your insights, Emerson. You nailed it in this latest one!