J.D. Robb discussion

Great points, Emerson. This is my 3rd complete, straight through reread of the series & I have read certain books, including Vengeance, more times than that. But I still had in my head that Eve was more b&w with the "cop rules" in these early books than she is...not sure why that slipped my mind later on.

Also agree with your assessment of the situation with the shoddy investigation of Marlena's death. I think it was a slap in the face to Roarke & Summerset, leaving them with little choice but to take care of things themselves. I don't think less of Roarke for what he did . . . I think it was one of several things that made him the man that Eve fell in love with. I also thought even more of Summerset because he never once placed any blame for her death on Roarke. I dare say as a grieving father, he certainly could have.

Emerson wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Relationship development is huge in the In Death series, and this book is a good example of that, imo. Let's talk about some of the relationships & the things th..."

Emerson, very well said. I totally agree.

Emerson wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think Eve's reaction was going to be when she discovered what Roarke had done as retribution for Marlena's death? Did she react as you expected? Thi..."

Excellent insights Emerson

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think Eve's reaction was going to be when she discovered what Roarke had done as retribution for Marlena's death? Did she react as you expected? This was a big test of Eve's sense of r..."

Eve's reaction to what Roarke had done as retribution for Marlena's death didn't really surprise me. She had killed a monster when she was only 8. She understood what life was like in the shanties of Dublin, living with cops on the take, and basically anarchy. She understood retribution to be the only to get justice in this instance. What did surprise me was the way she vehemently denied the allegations in Commander Whitney's Office.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Great points, Emerson. This is my 3rd complete, straight through reread of the series & I have read certain books, including Vengeance, more times than that. But I still had in my head that Eve was..."

Absolutely!

Jeanine wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think Eve's reaction was going to be when she discovered what Roarke had done as retribution for Marlena's death? Did she react as you expected? Thi..."

Interesting point Jeanine. This is one of the grays I come away with in understanding Eve as a cop. I am not sure why she did try to deny the allegations except to give Commander Whitney and Chief Tibble plausible deniability regarding how they handled the case. She had already given her team the choice of whether to walk away or to help her with it, knowing it could compromise them and their career. Maybe she knew that at the top level, these were two men who could not afford to be brought in when the stakes were so personal.

Emerson wrote: "Jeanine wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think Eve's reaction was going to be when she discovered what Roarke had done as retribution for Marlena's death? Did she react as y..."

Yes, that makes sense. I think it surprised me because she had risked entrusting him with information previously.....(e.g., Jamie's B& E of their home, in Ceremony, and her own admission of what she did to her father when she finally remembered in Glory); you're right....the stakes were too high here and too personal. She could risk herself before she could ever risk Roarke.

Charlene wrote: I wonder if we're thinking of the same th..."

Yes that is exactly it!

Charlene wrote: "While Audrey wanted to become a nun, as she stated, I did not get the sense that her pregnancy was the result of rape. I thought she gave in to her future husband, but I could be wrong here."

I did not get that impression either, Audrey. My perception was that she suffered from a Virgin Mary complex and believed her baby was a gift from God.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "And, does knowing what Roarke did alter your image of the man in any way? Was it justified, iyo? ."

Vigilantism is always a slippery slope. However, in this particular case, the police had absolutely no intention of seeing justice done and in a situation of lawlessness perhaps seeking justice oneself is the only available alternative. So, it didn't alter my image of Roarke at all.

Jeez. Have a night out with friends and you miss out on all this discussion.

Its all been said. My opinion of Roarke didn't change because of what he did. And I think for Eve this was her moment as his wife to do something. Yes. She is a cop and that is who and what she is but but Roarke told his wife as well what happened.

I honestly cannot imagine what it would do to me to not only loose a child but in this manner? Summerset is a bigger man than I am. Knowing what we do about the times when this happened, Summerset still went to the Guarda? I think Summerset as a character was brilliantly written. Eve needs someone like him in her life.

A few moments that stand out for me in ViD during this reread

Roarke's reaction to the locked door .
Eve telling Summerset she knows why he really doesn't like her as Roarke's wife.
Eve after the explosion, wanting a to get into contact with Roarke.
Roarke in the alley of Dublin

I don't think I have one that stand over the other. For me this book was a growth of character , of understanding what and who a certain character is, But also what love is in all is forms.

Michelle wrote: "A few moments that stand out for me in ViD during this reread

Roarke's reaction to the locked door .
Eve telling Summerset she knows why he really doesn't like her as Roarke's wife.
Eve after t..."

I like your list of stand out moments. I don't know if this has been mentioned, but another one for me was the moment in Whitney's office when Eve says "I want you to take note Commander, that turning in my badge would be like cutting off my arm. But if it comes down to a choice between the job and my marriage, then I lose the arm."

Another, is when Eve tells Peabody about what Roarke had done following Marlena's murder, both from the standpoint that Eve's circle of trust is growing, but also that Peabody didn't even hesitate; she was willing to put her career on the line out of her love and respect for Eve without qualification.

Jeanine wrote: "Michelle wrote: "A few moments that stand out for me in ViD during this reread

Roarke's reaction to the locked door .
Eve telling Summerset she knows why he really doesn't like her as Roarke's w..."

This was symbolically a great moment, Jeanine, when she clearly draws the line regarding prioritizing elements of her life. Being a cop was the only thing for her before Roarke. And yet, in less than a year, he has superseded the job.

I actually also like the moment in Dublin when Brian again points out the irony of Roarke marrying a cop and Eve wonders why no one marvels that she married a criminal. The switch in perspective was funny but also reminded me that we see a lot of their relationship through what Roarke is willing to do and change for her, but in this story, it is she who walks a fine line and grows for the both of them.

Charlene wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Share the one momentous moment that you will remember most when you think of VID."

One scene I remember particularly is where Roarke, during a very intimate act..."

Beautifully stated. I hadn't thought about the intimate moment and Roarke asking Eve to take "all of him" but I think you are right on. And in VID, we know that in the end, Eve really did take all of him. Big step forward for her and for them....

Emerson wrote: "Eve wonders why no one marvels that she married a criminal."

that moment was kind of funny to. "...I married a criminal." people throughout the series have been shocked the Roarke married a cop. I think this made me notice how much, yet people easily accept her marrying Roarke. I think there were a couple initial raised brows, but no shock and amazement.

Vera wrote: "Emerson wrote: "Eve wonders why no one marvels that she married a criminal."

that moment was kind of funny to. "...I married a criminal." people throughout the series have been shocked the Roarke ..."

It was very funny...

And her relationship with him cost her the opportunity to be seriously considered for advancement at the time; a much bigger deal to her than his voluntarily giving up a few slightly illegitimate enterprises that he kept around as entertaining hobbies.....I did like that Roarke very quickly validated her

Ditto Reading! :)

ok I have a question regarding future books. so far in all the books we have read starting with book 1 till VIP Eve always gets into physical trouble with the Perp and Roarke comes in and saves her. Is this the ending in the remaining books? I love the series and cant wait till continue on with the remaining books just wanted to know if this is a constant in all the books?

Summerset has never accepted Roarke marrying Eve. She's beneath him.

But with their similar backgrounds, Roarke and Eve understand each other.

Susan wrote: "ok I have a question regarding future books. so far in all the books we have read starting with book 1 till VIP Eve always gets into physical trouble with the Perp and Roarke comes in and saves her..."

No Susan...While Roarke is involved more & more in Eve's cases, he does not always play the role of White Knight. Eve is more than capable of saving herself in many cases. :)

A great place to ask any questions regarding any of the In Death books is in our Questions about all things in death thread.

Thanks Sandra. I am really enjoying these books. Hope this brings Eve and Summerset to grow to enjoy each others company although I do like the banter between them both. Felt bad for Summerset that he was played. He deserves a bit of love in his life.

Susan wrote: "Thanks Sandra. I am really enjoying these books. Hope this brings Eve and Summerset to grow to enjoy each others company although I do like the banter between them both. Felt bad for Summerset that..."

I agree...I'm a fan of Summerset - there's so much more to his story, I think. He & Eve love to snarl at one another, but I think that after Vengeance, there's a higher level of respect between them - even if they still hide it! :)

I'm with you Sandra. All though this book showed us a little of who Summerset is we still just saw a fraction of who and what he is. Though the banter I think will never disappear what they really think of each other definitely has.

Summerset is so much "more" to Roarke than just "the butler", and I think readers (& Eve) begin to see that in Vengeance. The banter between characters is one of my favorite parts of the series - be it Eve & Summerset, Eve & Peabody, & so on. It's brilliantly written, imo.

But then I feel that is true of most of the books. Though it grows with the series I think.

Agreed. :)

Susan wrote: "Thanks Sandra. I am really enjoying these books. Hope this brings Eve and Summerset to grow to enjoy each others company although I do like the banter between them both. Felt bad for Summerset that..."

I was really disappointed by that as well. Although I felt suspicious when Audrey said they had "missed" each other, I kept thinking to myself that at least it's great that he has a lady friend with whom he can have a level of companionship outside of what he does for a living. At least he can now spend more time matching verbal wits with Eve. I love that part of their dynamic, especially when the resentment lifts. The fact that they have to do it more for form than anything else makes it priceless.

Emerson - I keep hoping for "more" for Summerset also...the idea of him having a lady friend to share time with was great. I hated that it turned out the way it did. I keep hoping that one of the future books will tell more of his story & maybe give him a meaningful relationship with a woman.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Emerson - I keep hoping for "more" for Summerset also...the idea of him having a lady friend to share time with was great. I hated that it turned out the way it did. I keep hoping that one of the f..."

I hated that as well because Audrey seemed to complement him well. Obviously, too well. But Mary Patricia was just psychotic so I am glad she was unveiled at the end.

I do hope Summerset finds something to round out his life other than his devotion to Roarke. It isn't an unwarranted devotion, obviously. But for him to find a measure of happiness in his life would be wonderful, considering what he has endured in his life. I hope that the author does unveil more of his past. I have read up to a certain point in the series so these rereads are a great excuse to re-familiarize myself with all the characters. Looking forward to Holiday in Death.

Emerson wrote: "Susan wrote: "Thanks Sandra. I am really enjoying these books. Hope this brings Eve and Summerset to grow to enjoy each others company although I do like the banter between them both. Felt bad for ..."

Agreed.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Emerson - I keep hoping for "more" for Summerset also...the idea of him having a lady friend to share time with was great. I hated that it turned out the way it did. I keep hoping that one of the f..."

It made me even angrier with Audrey for leading him on.

I'm always intrigued by Mavis and Summerset's interactions. I never really thought that they would become such family. I think it makes his antagonistic attitude towards Eve so much apparent. But as his love interest was in the art scene maybe that's his soft spot.

I think that Summerset looks upon Mavis as a daughter and Bella as a granddaughter.

Michelle wrote: "I'm always intrigued by Mavis and Summerset's interactions. I never really thought that they would become such family. I think it makes his antagonistic attitude towards Eve so much apparent. But a..."

I think Mavis kind of reminds him of Marlena in terms of purity and innocence of spirit. There is something that is very childlike about Mavis's positive and determined attitude despite her background that I think moves Summerset. But the brokenness of Eve's spirit, regarding her childhood, is something that perhaps makes him feel uncomfortable.

Summerset & Mavis are an interesting dynamic...he does seem to "love" her like a daughter. I agree with Emerson in that Mavis is such a sweet, innocent-like free spirit - and very openly affectionate. They hit it off right away. But then, who wouldn't love Mavis!? lol

Emerson wrote: "Michelle wrote: "I'm always intrigued by Mavis and Summerset's interactions. I never really thought that they would become such family. I think it makes his antagonistic attitude towards Eve so muc..."

Agree

I like the line Eve told Dr. Mira about Summerset. " He doesn't know whether he wants to pat her on the head or jump her"

LOL! I liked that too!

I think we touched briefly on this earlier, but I have to say that Roarke was put in a bad position between Summerset & Eve. Summerset questioned his loyalties, Eve locked him out...some heavy scenes there. I was actually glad to see Roarke finally laid it on the line with Eve - basically saying "You will not lock me out. You can choose whether or not to sleep with me, but don't ever lock me out again." I was fist-pumping YES! lol He also reminded her that she was not the only one who had given up things for their relationship, not the only one who had made concessions, changes. I think Roarke needed to say those things & Eve needed to be reminded of them. And, of course, after that - they made mad, passionate make-up love. :)

I like that Eve and Roarke talk to one another and don't let things fester. It leads to a healthier relationship.

I do too.

I think it's easier for readers to quickly see how much Eve puts on the line to have her relationship with Roarke. But sometimes I think it's too easy to overlook what Roarke has done to make their relationship possible - to make it as easy as possible on Eve. Both have made sacrifices for the other.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "LOL! I liked that too!

I think we touched briefly on this earlier, but I have to say that Roarke was put in a bad position between Summerset & Eve. Summerset questioned his loyalties, Eve locked h..."

Oh I so AGREE! She is black and white, needs structure, the "marriage rules"...well, he gave her one, and she needed to hear it. He generally indulges her, so it was healthy for him and their relationship.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Vengeance in Death is a Top Five for many who have read the entire series which is saying a lot. Whether this is your first time reading it or you've read it over & over - what makes Vengeance so s..."

This was a pivotal moment for Eve and Roarke. She had to confront the "gray" and shift from her black or white way of thinking and operating. So ironic that it would be presented by Roarke and yet he probably was the only one that could impact her belief system.

It also showed the real dangerous side of Roarke. Yes, I knew he'd come from the Dublin streets but he's so beautifully packaged you just don't get that other side of him. He became a deeply layered character for me after this story.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "Vengeance in Death is a Top Five for many who have read the entire series which is saying a lot. Whether this is your first time reading it or you've read it over & over - what makes Vengeance so s..."

I got to thinking about this the other day. I've always rated this in the top 3, along with NAKED (#2) and GLORY (#3). But why?

I think it's because it has some good Eve-Roarke fights and make-ups, and good Eve-Summerset interaction. Also, it introduces McNab.

I think I miss some of these earlier books. Eve and Roarke rarely have one of their bad fights. Of course, they've been married what a whole 2+ years now? Though it seems like decades!

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "I agree with you all.

This is one of those books that is a perfect example of what I mean when I say I'm most drawn to "character-driven" books. The case is intriguing, but the power for me in Ve..."

It's important to remember that vengeance/retribution is NEVER right. It may feel justified but it hurts the avenger more than the person being revenged upon.

Our classics highlight this: The Scarlet Letter, Moby-Dick both show this.

Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think of the "riddles" used by the killer? Did they make sense? Could you "decipher" them? Why do you think the killer chose this method of delivering his messages? What did you learn ..."

The riddles were very hard. Even for Eve with her "state education". For instance, in one, she wouldn't have solved without McNab. But maybe the murder thought she would refer to Roarke.

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Sandra ~ ♥ Cross My Heart ♥ wrote: "What did you think of the "riddles" used by the killer? Did they make sense? Could you "decipher" them? Why do you think the killer chose this method of deliveri..."

Great catch. I just thought he meant her to fail.

I think the business about Roarke being a criminal was dealt with by Eve long before this. Maybe she didn't know how far he went when dealing with those thugs. But I think the most change in relationships was done by Summerset.

He really disliked her before. This was a turning point for him. He was able to move on, and start caring for her.

Though, whether he came to realize Roarke loved her in this one, I don't know. I think he had to have known it before. Or maybe he just hoped it was stroke of madness or a phase he was going through.

There are so many good parts of this book, it is hard for me to make a list, though I should.

This is also one of those where there are a lot of parts where you see the vulnerability of Roarke. That is something I always like to see.

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "I think the business about Roarke being a criminal was dealt with by Eve long before this. Maybe she didn't know how far he went when dealing with those thugs. But I think the most change in relati..."

Agree

Eve looked past his criminal ways in the first 2 books.