Children's Books discussion

I'm planning on self publishing an anthology of children's poetry and I'm not sure about the appropriateness of several words. Are the words crap and bum okay in children's literature? I'm Australian and I don't have an issue with them, but I'm concerned others might. Thanks.

Janelle wrote: "I'm planning on self publishing an anthology of children's poetry and I'm not sure about the appropriateness of several words. Are the words crap and bum okay in children's literature? I'm Australi..."

While I do not think either is inappropriate, "crap" could be an issue in the USA especially, at least in certain circles. Bum might be alright but even then, if you are planning to market your book to an American audience, you might want to consider an alternative, such as "tush" perhaps.

I'm American. I would say "crap" is probably a little harsh for a kids' book. I don't think there would be a problem with "bum".


ETA: To put a little but of perspective on it, I do read kids books and I would be surprised to read one with the word "crap" in it. Whereas "bum" wouldn't surprise me at all. Lots of parents teach their kids to use that word as a nicer way to name that body part. I've also heard parents teach their little ones to call it bum-bum.

Ok thanks for your thoughts, Manybooks and Debra. I'm planning on putting it on Smashwords, which has an international readership, though I would expect lots of Americans would access the site.

Do you think I could use drat instead of crap?

Janelle wrote: "Do you think I could use drat instead of crap?"

I think drat would be fine, or darn, but that is just one opinion.

Ok thanks

If changing the words would affect the poetry you could always put a small disclaimer in the write up. Like the sort you see on the back of a PG DVD.

I've had my book purchased in America and got a really good review then I got a DM from the same chap via goodreads explaining that while he loved the book and was happy to read it to his kids he felt awkward recommending it as the name Puss-Puss was inappropriate for some 7 -13 year old's as it can be used as a euphemism for vagina!

So I guess it depends on how you feel about making changes and whether the US is your main market or a nice bonus if you get it. remember that certain words palatable in US will not go down well in UK... darn and fanny come to mind.

Elspeth wrote: "If changing the words would affect the poetry you could always put a small disclaimer in the write up. Like the sort you see on the back of a PG DVD.

I've had my book purchased in America and got..."

My gosh, do we ever get hung up on language at times.

Fanny darned her socks :-)

Thanks for your comments Elspeth. Fortunately I can change crap easily. I can't change bum, it's part of a rhyme scheme.
I had thought the same thing as you about warning readers. In my case I'm going to add something about them being Aussie poems. Hopefully that will be enough to help international readers get over anything that's a bit different. My age range is about the same as yours.

We do get very hung up on words, Manybooks. Human beings are funny creatures.

Janelle wrote: "We do get very hung up on words, Manybooks. Human beings are funny creatures."

In German, there are a huge plethora of words and idiomatic expressions that have "Scheisse" (shit) as a component. Although these are of course not considered elevated language, and are often considered rather vulgar, many of them are still standard spoken fare at least in casual settings. When I am teaching first year German classes at the college and university level (in Canada), most of the students are eager to learn oral, casual language and idiomatic expressions. But a few years ago I got a complaint from the parents of a 23 year old student that I was teaching their innocent little boy bad language (yup, a 23 year old student, not a child). I had told the class two expressions for crappy weather, Scheisswetter (shitty weather) and Mistwetter (manure weather). The horror!

Poor baby!

Janelle wrote: "Poor baby!"

I know, but it has been happening more and more, especially in the USA, with parents demanding changed reading lists for their college aged "children"

Ridiculous ! And yet in uk we are encouraged to introduce "extracuricular" language ... I had a group of secondary 1 boys (11-12) that i was instructed by my teacher (I was in 6th form) to teach "rude" words to in an attempt to keep them interested in language. The halls echoed with pinkele kopft.
Worked so well we did the same for polish (lishka = magot) and Gealic (pog ma hone = kiss my arse)

My husband was an army brat spent college in France, he was put in a class with other F2L students their only common language was French so socialising was interesting... hubby says his proudest moment was teaching a group of high society Japanese to put up their middle finger and shout swivel !

My grandmother called me Fanny Anne until my late teens much to my mothers horror. :-D

We have some very old nursery rhyme books so I've taught my daughter the original meanings of all sorts of words. Sad thing is when she told nursery that she was feeling very gay we were called up for a parent teacher meeting and I had to explain to them! It boggles the mind to think that these people are quite happily chanting "and the child that is born on the Sabbath day is bonny and bright and good and gay" thinking that it's a prediction of homosexuality, written i might add in a time when said acts were illegal.

Sorry for taking your post off the rails a bit Janelle yes I think a little mention that it is written in Australian English should cover you. I wish authors would specify when a book is written in American English or British English. Not so much of a problem when children are small but rather a nightmare when they are learning to read.

Elspeth wrote: "Ridiculous ! And yet in uk we are encouraged to introduce "extracuricular" language ... I had a group of secondary 1 boys (11-12) that i was instructed by my teacher (I was in 6th form) to teach "r..."

Certain school boards in the USA, and comparatively recently, actually BANNED THE DICTIONARY.

WHAT !!!!!!!!

The one I don't get is these pilgrims came from UK (I'm thinking English speaking here) where fanny meant vagina and yet when they decide that arse is too rude for polite society they call it fanny ??? So now the american speaking world sits on its rear vagina.... LMAO

Don't worry about redirecting my post Elsbeth. It's been an interesting discussion, and it has proved to me that no matter how hard I try, there's likely to be someone who will complain about my vocabulary or content. Hopefully there will be a few readers out there who are more laid back.
I think it's important to identify the nationality of the writer, particularly when ebooks have made books more accessible internationally. It's even more important in children's poetry. Different accents and inflections can change how a line scans and reads. And I want my poetry to be as accessible as possible to young readers.
I do wonder as well if international readers will get me. I can't separate my Australianess out from my writing, it influences not just my vocabulary, but also the content matter and the humour.
However, I'm not writing for profit, just for personal satisfaction. So while I'd love to find some readers who connect with my writing, it's more about fulfilling a personal dream.

And on the subject of fanny, Aussies have a crude joke about an American's innocent misuse of the word.
But then we have a song about gay kookaburras. It's a classic Aussie song that in modern times has given teachers some challenging conversations in classrooms.

Oh, tell us the joke. We're all adults here.
(for a person younger than age 14 to be a member of goodreads, they have to have lied about their age...)

Oh yes ppplease :-D

kookaburra sits in the old gum treeeee (hoplessly out of tune)

Janelle wrote: "And on the subject of fanny, Aussies have a crude joke about an American's innocent misuse of the word.
But then we have a song about gay kookaburras. It's a classic Aussie song that in modern tim..."

Or Deck the Halls, as there is "gay apparel" (I think even the old theme song for the Flintstones had a "gay old time").

Janelle wrote: "And on the subject of fanny, Aussies have a crude joke about an American's innocent misuse of the word.
But then we have a song about gay kookaburras. It's a classic Aussie song that in modern tim..."

I join the chorus of yes please ...

Sorry folks, I really don't want to share it. While well known, it is crude and I've lost my taste for it.

Fair enough . x I shall have to write to the relatives in ACT and extract it out of them instead. Manybooks I promise i will DM you the joke if i get a reply .x

Elspeth wrote: "Fair enough . x I shall have to write to the relatives in ACT and extract it out of them instead. Manybooks I promise i will DM you the joke if i get a reply .x"

Cool, I would enjoy that. Just reading a German language academic treatise of the joke, and really love the combination of detailed analysis with a myriad of often very amusing examples.