Bright Young Things discussion

Welcome to June's group read of Manhattan Transfer by John Dos Passos. Enjoy!

I've never read Dos Passos. Can anyone say if this is a good one to start with?

I've just been assiduously researching Manhattan Transfer and wondering whether to read it. I can easily get hold of a copy so I think I might give it a go but, equally, a few alarm bells are sounding too.

It's enthusiastically reviewed by those who fall for its charms but it also has many a one and two star review.

What frustrates those who don't like it seems to be the lack of a plot, non linear structure and the kaleidoscopic array of characters, many of whom don't reappear.

Joyce and Woolf are often cited as influences. Dunno. I have never really got on with those authors or this style of writing.

I'll hang fire and see what Dawn, Val, Jan, Judy, Bronwyn, (who voted for it so guessing will be reading it), and anyone else who is inspired to read it, make of it before deciding whether to take the plunge.

By the by, I came across some questions about Manhattan Transfer that could be good discussion starters. So, if you feel inspired, you could try answering one, two, or even all, of these questions...

How do females fare in Dos Passos's world, and in what ways can his vision of New York be considered feminine?

What do you make of the depiction of World War 1 in Manhattan Transfer? How does it compare to other novels of the early twentieth century that involve the War but do not depict it directly e.g. Virginia Woolf's Mrs. Dalloway or Ernest Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises?

Manhattan Transfer bears many similarities to T.S. Eliot's The Waste Land. To what extent can the novel be described as poetry? To what extent does Dos Passos blur the lines between prose and poetry?

Trace Ellen's character: the novel opens on her birth and closes shortly after her marriage to Baldwin. To what extent does Dos Passos judge her? How can we interpret her actions? What might lie in store for her next?

To what extent is Manhattan Transfer a political text?

What about the treatment of time in the novel? Dos Passos makes frequent use of ellipsis and compression; he also lingers on particular moments much as Woolf, or for that matter a poet, might. What conclusions do you draw?

Is Jimmy Herf an alter-ego for John Dos Passos? Certainly parts of Jimmy's life - his mother's death, his participation in World War I, and his radicalism - reflect parts of Dos Passos's. But do the parallels run deeper? What is the implication of a protagonist who reflects the author in the midst of such a sprawling, fragmented, and seemingly nonlinear work?

"I dunno... Pretty far." As simple a closing line as can be, and yet its implications are ambiguous and complex. What do you make of it?

I just started this last night and am already loving it. So far, it's been a series of snippets of various New York characters which together give a sense of life in the city at that time.

Nigeyb writes:"What frustrates those who don't like it seems to be the lack of a plot, non linear structure and the kaleidoscopic array of characters, many of whom don't reappear." Yes, I can see that--but I think the real main character is New York City, not the many individuals.

Since I'm only on page 64, I've hardly begun to see what this novel is really like, so my attitude may change, but as of right now, I can say that it will be very worth reading.

More later....

I'm still finishing another Dos Passos book, Three Soldiers, and liking it very much - I had been listening to it on an audiobook but it was taking me too long, so have switched to reading it myself.

I think the narrative of this one is probably more linear, as it follows three soldiers through the war, but there are quite a lot of stream of consciousness passages. The prose style is vivid and poetic and I'm really enjoying it - so I'm eager to get on to Manhattan Transfer. Should be able to pick up a copy from the library at the weekend.

Nigeyb wrote: "I've just been assiduously researching Manhattan Transfer and wondering whether to read it. I can easily get hold of a copy so I think I might give it a go but, equally, a few alarm b..."

If I'm in a similar quandary over a book, I sometimes either "look inside" at Amazon or download a sample to my Kindle - reading a few pages gives me an idea of whether it is for me or not.

Barbara wrote: "I just started this last night and am already loving it. So far, it's been a series of snippets of various New York characters which together give a sense of life in the city at that time.

Nigeyb..."

That's about as far as I am as well. And have a similar impression. I'll be back later to comment better.

I have Three Soldiers on my kindle and read quite a lot of it. It is good as a novel and not that 'experimental' or difficult, but compared to the memoirs and semi-autobiographical novels I had been reading around the same time it felt as if he was playing around the edges of a wartime experience rather than writing from one. I do intend to go back to it sometime, when I am not quite so immersed in histories, memoirs, etc. of the war.

"Nigeyb wrote: "I've just been assiduously researching Manhattan Transfer and wondering whether to read it. I can easily get hold of a copy so I think I might give it a go but, equally, a few alarm bells are sounding too."

"Judy wrote: If I'm in a similar quandary over a book, I sometimes either "look inside" at Amazon or download a sample to my Kindle - reading a few pages gives me an idea of whether it is for me or not. "

Great advice Judy. I did just that.

I read the second chapter in the first part "Metropolis" and was very impressed. Very kaleidoscopic - akin to wandering down a busy New York thoroughfare and catching snatches of conversations and stories.

If I can fit it in I will read it.

I've started Manhattan Transfer. Enjoying it so far.

I read a chapter or two the other night. For some reason, it's reminding me of Little Man, What Now?, but that may just be because of the wife giving birth and the father seeming a bit unsure of the whole thing.

I'm most of the way through chapter 2 and I can't say I love it, or that I hate it, still not sure what to make of it, I guess

Looks interesting. Might look for a copy.

I'm probably halfway through chapter 5. I'm still finding it interesting. A different writing style. And different from the style he used in Three Soldiers.

Jennifer W wrote: "I read a chapter or two the other night. For some reason, it's reminding me of Little Man, What Now?, but that may just be because of the wife giving birth and the father seeming a bi..."

I haven't read Little Man, What Now? yet so I don't know if I'd see the similarities you do. What Manhattan Transfer reminds me of is Ragtime. So many characters--some disappearing after a brief appearance, others intertwining with some other character. Both books present a kaleidoscopic picture of their time and place.

Yeah, I get that, too, Barbara.

I'll be starting this in the next few days - a bit late getting to it but looking forward to it.

I encourage you to read it! It's one of the best books I've read in a while.

Here are a few comments:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Yes! I'd agree with that comparison, Barbara. :) I'm still working on this one; I haven't been reading much lately... But I am enjoying it when I read it.

Great review Barbara

I've started this now and am enjoying it so far - not very far in yet. I love the vividness of his writing.

Barbara, your review is great - I'll read it again after finishing the book. Already I can see that there is quite a bit of bleakness in there, as you say. And I can also see the similarity with Ragtime.

I also really liked Three Soldiers by Dos Passos and am hoping to write a review of that while it's still fairly fresh in my mind.

Val wrote: "I have Three Soldiers on my kindle and read quite a lot of it. It is good as a novel and not that 'experimental' or difficult, but compared to the memoirs and semi-autobiographical n felt as if he was playing around the edges of a wartime experience rather than writing from one. "

I think the best part might be later in the novel, after the end of the war, when he gets more into portraying the "Lost Generation" - this does feel as if he is writing from experience, although there are some melodramatic plot twists.

I'll be joining this quite late. : )

Hurrah. Remember those questions ;-)

I've read the first 3 chapters so far and am impressed by the intensity of the prose. So far the story of Gus the milkman is one of the strands which stands out - others are Ed and Susie Thatcher and their little girl Ellie, and the short passages about Bud, always hungry and trudging the streets. Hoping to read through the rest of it more quickly to keep track of all the characters better.

I will keep an eye on this questions and some of the characters that Judy has mentioned.

I'm into chapter 3 and I'm still not sure what I think about it. I don't hate it, but nor am I eager to keep reading. I like more plot in stories than what I've seen so far. This might be one I would like better if I could listen to an audio book.

Jennifer, I'm now into chapter 4, which features (for me) the greatest passage of the book so far, so I would say keep going! This is seen through the eyes of the little boy Jimmy Herf - an amazingly vivid description of his life in a hotel and his mother's illness. I know I said some of the other characters stood out, but this family stands out even more!

I immediately wondered if this was autobiographical, since it has that feel about it, so was interested to see that one of the questions Nigeyb put above was about whether Jimmy is a self-portrait. I'd have to know more about Dos Passos to be sure, but my immediate feeling is yes.

Jennifer mentioned audiobooks - I did listen to part of Three Soldiers on audio and enjoyed it a lot in that format, especially as there was a great reader, but I felt it was taking too long.

I was just looking to see if I could find any information about John Dos Passos and found a website devoted to him, www.johndospassos.com - this has a very brief bio on the home page and also features quite a few of his paintings. However, it doesn't seem to have much information about his books.

There's a more detailed bio on the Spartacus website, though the 3rd paragraph of this is garbled.

http://spartacus-educational.com/Jpas...

Thanks Judy. I hope to get round to this book as I liked what I have read (in the Kindle sample) but I have so many other books competing for my time. However, I am now convinced that it's a book that is well worth reading.

Thanks for the info Judy.

In answer to your second question Nigeyb, about how does it compare to other novels set in WW1 but not directly about it, is that the characters seem like ordinary people trying to make a living, working class people and ethnic people. So many novels from this period seem to focus on the middle classes so it is a refreshing change for me.

I'm in Section Two. I liked Little Jimmy too. This section seems to have jumped forward in time. So it has been a little confusing to me.BBut I am still plodding along.

I'm now in Section Two too - I got a bit confused towards the end of Section One when it suddenly jumped forward and Ellen and Jimmy were both much older. Now it's gone forward again.

It would be handy to have a guide to the timescale and dates and also to be able to refer back to who the various characters are - I can see there are various student guides online which might do this but they give away the plot, so I will probably wait to investigate these until I've finished!

Still on section one...

Roisin wrote: "Still on section one..."


Great news.

What do you make of it so far Roisin?

How is it different from what you were expecting?

I will keep my eyes out for Jimmy. I think my struggle with this one is in part the way it's written and in part the way I like to read. Because the characters are swimming in and out of view and doing different things each time I encounter them, I have to pay close attention. That means, I should read when I'm alert. But I don't like to read when I'm alert. I like to do things when I'm alert. I usually read before bed or when lounging in a hammock (like I was all weekend, yay summer!).

Roisin wrote: "Thanks for the info Judy.

In answer to your second question Nigeyb, about how does it compare to other novels set in WW1 but not directly about it, is that the characters seem like ordinary people..."

I agree with you about it having a wider cast of characters than some other novels set in this period and giving a feeling of the desperate poverty many of them face. The passages about Bud are heart-rending, and life is also very tough for the two friends from the ship, Emile and Congo.

Interesting. Thanks Jennifer. I had the impression that there was not that much of a story. So your comments make me wonder whether it is necessary to be able to properly concentrate on the story. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has finished, or nearly finished, the book.

Jennifer W wrote: "I will keep my eyes out for Jimmy. I think my struggle with this one is in part the way it's written and in part the way I like to read. Because the characters are swimming in and out of view and d..."

That's a great description of them. I agree it can be hard to keep track of all the individual characters because there is such a large cast and often long gaps between their appearances. I'm about halfway through now.

To me, the book was like a symphony--not so much ABOUT something (although there certainly was a story) as an experience, with characters and scenes that lead to a general impression of the times. New York was the story.

Nigeyb wrote: "Interesting. Thanks Jennifer. I had the impression that there was not that much of a story. So your comments make me wonder whether it is necessary to be able to properly concentrate on the story. ..."

From what I've seen, there isn't much plot, but there is a good deal to each of the characters: some are working, some aren't, some are in relationships, some aren't. It's like when you run into someone that you once met at a party months ago and you can't quite remember: was this the person that was happily married or just going through a divorce? It's not vital that you know, but if you say the wrong thing, you're going to look like a jerk. In this book, I feel like I'm having that experience every couple of pages. In several cases, it's also not very clearly spelled out, so again, that alert thing! :)

I, too, find it a little confusing. But I think it is mainly about living in New York City. Coming from Chicago I agree that city life can be confusing.

Comes across fine to me. Little snapshots of life.

How spooky! I write that last sentence and then come across this excerpt from a journal/book which sheds light on the author's style and inspiration.

https://www.questia.com/library/journ...

"Some of the poets who went along with the cubism of the painters of the School of Paris had talked about simultaneity. There was something about Rimbaud's poetry that tended to stand up off the page. Direct snapshots of life. Reportage was a great slogan. The artist must record the fleeting world the way the motion picture film recorded it. By contrast, juxtaposition, montage, he could build drama into his narrative.

In answer to your earlier question Nigeyb, I like it. I think I expected it to follow traditional story-telling, so refreshing in a way. I don't have a problem with the lack of plot. They could be scenes from a Jim Jarmusch or David Lynch film. The place connects the people, despite their different experiences. In some ways this book makes me think of Vermillion Sands by J G Ballard and the interconnecting stories in that.

Thanks Roisin. I had a similar impression so it's good to know I was on the right lines.

I love the idea of them being scenes from a Jim Jarmusch or David Lynch film (two of my favourite filmmakers right there).

How much are you enjoying it? Eager to get back to it, or dutifully working your way through it? Or something else?

Oh definitely still reading it. It does have some funny moments and critiques and comments on society so far.