Victorians! discussion

Week one start date is fast approaching. Here is the reading for it:
July 1-7: Chapters 1-9.
I am starting it this weekend to get ahead and will be posting questions and thoughts for the start of the read.
Looking forward to discussing this with all you brave souls who are on this mini ' Continental Europe' trip with me.
Bon Voyage and off we go!

At the end of week 1's reading it says:

'What occurrence was that?
We shall tell the reader in the next chapter.'

This seemed as good a pause point as any. So here are my thoughts and questions that can be addressed now or thought over and answered when we are further into the novel.

1. Dumas took some historical events and facts and pegged a story to them. Most writers of historical fiction write a story to throw light on a historical event. How do you feel about the way Dumas writes? Do you think you would learn more, less, the same about the history of the time and place with one style or the other?

2. The true events in the story are:
a. The fate of the De Witt brothers at the hands of the mob.
b. William of Orange was present in this period and place but not necessarily as described by Dumas.
c. The love and obsession of the country for tulips and their cultivation.
d. The unbelievably exorbitant prices that certain bulbs would bring.

3. A made up character for the sake of the story is Cornelius Van Baerle. How do you feel he adds to the story?

4. The market for tulip bulbs was comparable to that of paintings, and the price determined by rarity and aesthetic value to the purchaser. They were considered to exhibit the height of natural beauty and were seen as evidence of God's artistry.
At a distance of 350 years, can you understand this view of tulips? Can you think of modern day obsessions that are similar? In what ways are they similar?

5. Based on the first 9 chapters, how are you liking or disliking the story? The characters?

6. In chapter 1 it says:
'It is quite rare for God to provide a great man at the necessary moment to carry out some great deed...But when the devil takes a hand in human affairs, to ruin a life or overthrow an empire, it is very rare for him not to find some wretch immediately available.'
Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

7. Cornelius De Witt was supposed to say under torture; 'Justum et tenacem,' which is a reference to a quote from Horace referring to the upright man and firm of purpose.' Dumas records this in the story. What sort of men do you think Cornelius and his brother Johan were based on the story?

8. I really liked the integrity of the captain of the cavalry, Captain Tilly. Are there any others you admired?

9.Why did Johan De Witt say Cornelius Van Baerle was lost because his brother gave his godson the letters Johan wanted destroyed?

10. What do you think of William of Orange based solely on the novel?

11.What motivates Issac Boxtel to do what he does in regards to Van Baerle?

12. William of Orange was a Calvinist and believed very much in destiny. Do you feel that the actions of the characters so far are the result of freedom of choice or destiny

13. I am really enjoying the story and the witty way Dumas writes. Can you find examples of his humour in the story? Examples of what you are most enjoying?

Awesome group of questions, Tracey! I can't wait to get started!

I really like Dumas's writing style. It is very witty, despite the awful happenings taking place. And the story moves along nicely without it getting bogged down or crawling at a plodding pace.

I don't recall ever hearing about the De Witt brothers before, and I actually googled them to find out if they were ficticious or not.

Dumas does a very good job describing the escalating tensions coming from the mob, and once the crescendo is reached it is like an indiscriminate monster run loose. It will devour everything in its path. The scariness of the situation envelops the reader.

The tulip craze really took on a life of its own. It is amazing what kinds of prices people are willing to pay for things they hold valuable. A good comparison to today would be collecting baseball cards, or any type of vintage toy - perfectly preserved, of course! - people are willing to pay a premium for only because it reminds them of their childhood.

Kerstin wrote: "I really like Dumas's writing style. It is very witty, despite the awful happenings taking place. And the story moves along nicely without it getting bogged down or crawling at a plodding pace.

I..."

The De Witt brothers story is well worth reading this book for, I agree. Dumas does an excellent job. He modifies the story a little by having the brothers killed out side the prison, but the horror and madness of it all is well described.
Do you think that the 'obsession' with things is about possession? That to own something that no one else has, or few people have, in some way bestows increased worth on the owner? Is this desire to own a symptom of need or greed? Of low self esteem or arrogance?
I think the desire to create something rare and beautiful, the desire that Van Baerle has, is of merit. But what about the driving passions of Boxtel?

I'm a bit behind the group and just finished chapters 1-4. Hugely exciting! Dumas really knows how to keep up the pace and since I hadn't read about the dates of the DeWitt brothers, I did not know whether they might escape. Of course, upon finished chapter 4, I went straight to google and have spent the last hour reading up on the intrigues of 1672. The reality seems every bit as twisted and bloody as depicted... With the addition of a little cannibalism. Plus, one of the murderers kept the hearts of the brothers on display for years. Creepy link ... http://www.straightdope.com/columns/r...

William III certainly seems like a back-stabbing bad guy as depicted by Dumas. But I don't actually know much about him. Although, another reference from my wild research foray is to The Massacre of Glencoe, another scene of heinous betrayal during his reign against one of the highland clans.

I'm definitely going to try to get ahold of a copy of The First Churchills. I saw it many, many years ago but I remember it covered a great deal of ground surrounding the monarchy/religion/heir-to-the-throne issues. And the costumes were gorgeous!

Renee wrote: "I'm a bit behind the group and just finished chapters 1-4. Hugely exciting! Dumas really knows how to keep up the pace and since I hadn't read about the dates of the DeWitt brothers, I did not know..."

It makes William of Orange appear creepy from the initial physical description and continues to the surprise reveal over his true identity, all the way to the fact that he organised for the gates to be locked and shows no emotion at the brutal murder of the innocent brothers.
The horror of this scene makes the neighbour's obsession with tulips seem even odder in the midst of the political overthrow. It does appear realistic though that jealousy of another's talent would make a person betray them.

Hi, Clari! I agree that William is depicted as the heartless villain of the piece so far. Even to tossing in the detail that he was the pupil of Johan at one point, gives the reader the impression that this is one cold customer.

Yeah, the world of tulips seems so far removed from all that bloodshed. But I kinda like the juxtaposition. It certainly shows how far removed Cornelius Van Baerle has placed himself. Yes, I think it's realistic that the neighbor's jealousy prompts him to behave quite badly. That little chink in his make-up leading him to betrayal, trespassing, thievery... And maybe more as the novel progresses.

The pace really doesn't let up! I'm certainly not going to have any trouble catching up to the schedule. The last 5 chapters of this section deal with Cornelius Van Barle. Parts of it remind me of Monte Christo with the dashing, innocent young man incarcerated because of letters put into his care. I had the impression that he was a much older man, but that didn't mesh with the movie posters. Finally, it is revealed that he's 28 and handsome... In the same chapter where Rosa is described as a vision of youth, beauty, and concern. Potential Romance, anyone? Actually, Dumas went a long way to describing even the disemboweled corpses in painterly fashion. Chapter 9 was quite visual.

I'm eager to see where this is going. Given the "cliffhanger" style, I'm guessing it was originally serialized.

Yes, Christa, Dumas is really keeping his readers on their toes. It must have been difficult to wait for each new section as it was published.

(We're reading A Study in Scarlet beginning on August 1st.)

Christa wrote: "During the time I am reading I feel like every moment and scene is unpredictable and unexpected. Dumas is throwing some hints to his readers but I feel like I can not predict anything that is happe..."

I too feel that the book is similar to a modern day TV series, with a cliff hanger at the end of each chapter/episode. He carries his readers along with him as he relates the story.

The De Witt brothers and William of Orange are citizens of Holland not France,which makes this book a little different to his other novels.

Clari wrote: "Renee wrote: "I'm a bit behind the group and just finished chapters 1-4. Hugely exciting! Dumas really knows how to keep up the pace and since I hadn't read about the dates of the DeWitt brothers, ..."

Apparently there is no historical validity of William of Orange watching the murders but he was a 'prime instigator' behind the murders. He believed he was pre-destined to be the leader of the people and the cause justified the means. Cornelius quoting Horace under torture, his brother Johan visiting him in prison to comfort him and the fact that they were dismembered are facts of history.

I am a little behind in the reading schedule. I have just finished chapter 7. It took me a while to digest the historical background picked by Dumas for the layout of his story. I googled a lot about De Witt Brothers which gave me a better idea of the social and political issues of this period. At the minute I hit chapter 6, I have been totally absorbed by the story of these two neighbors. I wonder how Cornelius will succeed at producing the ultimate black tulip with the barriers obtruded by his jealous neighbor and his uncle reputation.

I am starting chapter 8 today and I hope I will be able to catch up the pace of the discussion. In this way I will be able to follow the discussion thread .

Kerstin wrote: "I really like Dumas's writing style. It is very witty, despite the awful happenings taking place. And the story moves along nicely without it getting bogged down or crawling at a plodding pace.

I..."

I do agree with your comment. I enjoy reading Dumas' story because of the nice flow of his story. Reader get easily absorbed by the action. In most of the book I read I don't remember hitting a dead zone where I felt bored shuffling pages. Reading Dumas is entertaining from the beginning to the end. His stories are filled of humor with a strong political opinion that often make me laugh out loud.

Tracey wrote: "Apparently there is no historical validity of William of Orange watching the murders but he was a 'prime instigator' behind the murders. He believed he was pre-destined to be the leader of the people and the cause justified the means. Cornelius quoting Horace under torture, his brother Johan visiting him in prison to comfort him and the fact that they were dismembered are facts of history..."

I stopped reading and had to check the facts of the DeWitt brothers (bless the internet) as it seemed so horrendous and melodramatic. Does anyone know whether Dumas' contemporary readers would have been very familiar with this story?
I thought that they were going to be lead characters and escape, it felt like a 'Game of Thrones' moment when they were ripped apart.

Clari wrote: "Tracey wrote: "Apparently there is no historical validity of William of Orange watching the murders but he was a 'prime instigator' behind the murders. He believed he was pre-destined to be the lea..."

I enjoy the way you compare it with the Game of Thrones. I would have not think about it, But now I can see many similitudes.

I love the analogy! I don't watch GOT, but when I told my nephew who does, he said you are spot on.

There is a rather grisly painting of the ripped apart brothers at this link, and also a much better statue of the two brothers. Apparently the story was fairly well known
http://www.executedtoday.com/2010/08/...

Tracey wrote: "There is a rather grisly painting of the ripped apart brothers at this link, and also a much better statue of the two brothers. Apparently the story was fairly well known
http://www.executedtoday.c..."

I never stop being disturbed at what people do to each other :(
In the book it was a completely unjustified mob upruling against people who had Dutch interests at the centre of their lives, do you think that is historically accurate?

It's also interesting to think why Dumas chose this incident as the springboard of his novel, do you think it is purely for the blood splattered drama, or has it got a deeper purpose to comment on politics? How quick people want to blame someone and get revenge, which is mirrored in the tulip plot where the neighbour can put all his insecurities and disappointments on his richer compatriot. Although I initially thought Dumas might be making him a sympathetic character trying his best and passionate about his tulips but fated never to succeed because he doesn't have enough money.

Clari wrote: "Tracey wrote: "There is a rather grisly painting of the ripped apart brothers at this link, and also a much better statue of the two brothers. Apparently the story was fairly well known
http://www...."

I'm only on Chapter 8. While the writing style is excellent, and fast paced, I'm struggling with the nasty things people are doing to each other. I guess I've had more than my fill lately of that in our current world. I'm considering putting the book down :(

Deborah wrote: "Clari wrote: "Tracey wrote: "There is a rather grisly painting of the ripped apart brothers at this link, and also a much better statue of the two brothers. Apparently the story was fairly well kno..."

Deborah, don't put it down as the book moves to the sweet love story and the kindness of Rosa and Cornelius. It is amusing and uplifting writing. I believe Dumas was trying to show the madness and cruelty of the 'mob' and the kindness and Christian behaviour of individuals. A story that makes me think that no matter what the 'mob' is doing, that individuals who retain their integrity can make a difference. Dumas also lived in a world gone mad as we do. It is an eternal story sadly.

Clari wrote: "Tracey wrote: "There is a rather grisly painting of the ripped apart brothers at this link, and also a much better statue of the two brothers. Apparently the story was fairly well known
http://www...."

I believe Dumas was trying to show the madness and cruelty of the 'mob' and the kindness and Christian behaviour of individuals. A story that makes me think that no matter what the 'mob' is doing, that individuals who retain their integrity can make a difference. Dumas also lived in a world gone mad as we do. It is an eternal story sadly.

Tracey wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Clari wrote: "Tracey wrote: "There is a rather grisly painting of the ripped apart brothers at this link, and also a much better statue of the two brothers. Apparently the story was..."

It's not only the mob. It's also the neighbor

Deborah wrote: "Tracey wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Clari wrote: "Tracey wrote: "There is a rather grisly painting of the ripped apart brothers at this link, and also a much better statue of the two brothers. Apparentl..."

I understand and he remains in the story but doesn't take centre stage as the love story does.

I know what you mean though, Deborah. There have been books I've had to put off reading because they struck a particular nerve. (Although, Tracey is right about the story becoming much more focused on the positive.) We would certainly miss your always-welcome company for this read, but you have to honor your own equilibrium.

I am reading the Penguin edition with an introduction by Robin Buss. For me, the intro was an excellent guide to the historical facts of the de Witts and the country's obsession with tulips. I think that the bloodbath of the de Witts and the story of Cornelius the tulip grower are connected by the theme of ambition. In the intro, Buss quotes a historian about the de Witts' murder: "...William tolerated them [the atrocities] and everything leads one to believe that he was the prime instigator of them, so much is it the case that ambition stifles feeling." This same concept could be applied to Boxtel. His ambition has stifled his morality. I just finished Chap. 9, so maybe Boxtel does regain some empathy?

Renee wrote: "I know what you mean though, Deborah. There have been books I've had to put off reading because they struck a particular nerve. (Although, Tracey is right about the story becoming much more focused..."

Indeed. I believe books are meant to teach and develop us but not at the detriment to our well being. They are meant to uplift and inspire us, not bring us down. A local book club I am in chose Room and I could not read it as the subject matter was too close to experiences that I could relate to.

Alicatte wrote: "I am reading the Penguin edition with an introduction by Robin Buss. For me, the intro was an excellent guide to the historical facts of the de Witts and the country's obsession with tulips. I thin..."

Yes they believed the cause justified the means. Sounds familiar in today's world where many seem to be murdering others in name of a cause.

Alicatte wrote: " This same concept could be applied to Boxtel. His ambition has stifled his morality."

From the moment Boxtel realizes that Cornelius is also raising tulips he sees him as a rival, when before they were described as friends. Boxtel is eaten up with jealousy and greed, as Cornelius is far more wealthy and thereby independent to pursue his hobby at will. What's more, Cornelius also has the requisite education to take his hobby far beyond to Boxtel's abilities.

The contrast between these two neighbors is quite stark: Boxtel at first had some successes with his tulip cultivars, but now that Cornelius is his key rival his perception is clouded by his sense of inferiority, of what he can't do. In his twisted thinking, the only way he can succeed and win the prize money, is when Cornelius is pushed out of the way. When the opportunity comes, he is ready to act.

Cornelius, on the other hand, is quite obsessed as well, but in a more intellectual way. It is the challenge of creating a black cultivar that tickles him. He is not driven by the prize money. For one, he doesn't need it, for another, he would pursue this challenge even if there were no prize money involved. The prize money is more of a nice windfall to finance his hobby and the rest he will give to charity. Cornelius is presented to us as a man who understands that with his wealth there also comes the obligation to give back.

Kerstin wrote: "Alicatte wrote: " This same concept could be applied to Boxtel. His ambition has stifled his morality."

From the moment Boxtel realizes that Cornelius is also raising tulips he sees him as a rival..."

Great thoughts. Do you have some sympathy for Boxtel?

Tracey wrote: "Do you have some sympathy for Boxtel?"

Not really. Boxtel refuses to come to terms with his limitations. He has enough sense to realize he is not acting in a rightful manner and has a few scruples bubbling up, but he chooses not to act on them.

I agree with you, It is one thing to feel in a disadvantaged position but quite something else to do immoral or illegal things justified by this He could have chosen to do different to what he did. He could have made friends with Cornelius and together they could have worked on the black tulip, or just been happy with doing his best alone, or finding something else to excel in.

Tracey wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Alicatte wrote: " This same concept could be applied to Boxtel. His ambition has stifled his morality."

From the moment Boxtel realizes that Cornelius is also raising tulips he see..."

At some moments -- I hate to admit this -- I do feel a tinge of sympathy for Boxtel, such as when the author reveals Boxtel's love and mad desire for the black tulip. I think he must realize that he is inferior to CVB and he knows he could never be as masterful as CVB. That's when I have sympathy for him.

Alicatte wrote: "Tracey wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Alicatte wrote: " This same concept could be applied to Boxtel. His ambition has stifled his morality."

From the moment Boxtel realizes that Cornelius is also raisin..."

I agree that we should have sympathy for the position he finds himself in, but then he loses our sympathy when he uses that to justify doing what he knows is wrong.

Trying to catch up :O)

Enjoying it so far. I didn't know much about the History behind the story, just the names and Holland's connection to tulips. I did watch a French film adaptation with Alain Delon when I was a kid, but it doesn't bear any resemblance (more like a Zorro, weirdly enough).

Dumas creates a great canvas. I still hoped the brothers would survive but alas. It would say that the author used real facts as a spring board to entertain, not the other way round. Also the fact that the narrator keeps highlighting details to the reader pertaining to the narration, making the story feel less real and more like a tale.

Boxtel's infatuation with having Cornelius's tulips. It is sad, funny, ridicule and horrible, all at the same time. As soon as Boxtel stopped even trying to grow the flower, I knew that he was devolving. Yes, it did remind me of other episodes in History when people have denounced others in the name of Justice when in fact it was to grant their own wishes, mostly for jealousy or retribution. Ugly. I don't have any sympathy for him, especially since he cowardly hid the day of the arrest.

Cornelius's obsession is so close to Boxtel but he wants to create, not just own - and I guess that might be where the big difference resides. I also thought he was older and not just 28, but he does become 'younger' once he is in the presence of Rosa. Now her I like a lot. She seems so sure of herself and of what she can do, especially in the light of the mobs and other forces around her. She shows such intelligence and common sense that it is refreshing.