World, Writing, Wealth discussion

Kirkus, Publisher's Weekly, RT Book Reviews etc - just some of the widely respected review services who charge significant fees to review your book. Are they a milestone on the path to being taken 'seriously' as an author or is it an expensive shot in the dark? On the one hand they are legitimate companies who have the attention of both readers, promoters and distributors but is it worth the expense? Pay to play like the big five and hope it matters or roll up your sleeves and do the indie DIY thing for the foreseeable future?

Totally legit, and necessary if an author is serious about expanding their options so far as getting representation and a book deal, imo. There's a LOT of competition out there, and a ton of irrelevant books. If you want to stand out, you're gonna have to put your money where your mouth is.

Nadia
This is what I'm seeing. Have you had any success or luck with this?

I haven't done it yet, but I will. I invested in a good, local PR agent and she got me my first major author event; it was heavily promoted and live-streamed. I was easily able to book two more myself because of this first event at a well-known bookstore.

I realize now how important investment is to promote a book; it's the new reality. Whether it's paid reviews, good PR, or paid best seller status, it's the nane of the game.

I know we can't get our own top notch ERs but couldn't you have eventually booked your own in-store events?

Tara wrote: "Kirkus, Publisher's Weekly, RT Book Reviews etc - just some of the widely respected review services who charge significant fees to review your book. Are they a milestone on the path to being taken ..."

I think it's important to have a balanced and good package as a whole, where editorial review is only one of the elements, the rest being professional cover, well edited book, pitchy blurb and engaging beginning...
Talking about myself, I surely have some room for improvement on most counts -:)

Nadia wrote: "Totally legit, and necessary if an author is serious about expanding their options so far as getting representation and a book deal, imo. There's a LOT of competition out there, and a ton of irrele..."

I'm not sure a book deal is relevant, once you've self-published. Sure, the book can be a springboard to other things, like speaker's functions, new or better job (a friend of mine leveraged his book exactly for this purpose) and so on, but it equally can be viewed as a 'product' deserving promotion in its own right rather than instrument for other things...

Agree with Nik. I'm not saying I'd turn down a book deal but I'm 100% not seeking or plan to seek one either. I do want my own version of author success and accept/understand that this goal requires mastering all the components that can, eventually, lead to that success. But I am definitely pacing myself ha ha. I will spend some money where I 'have' to but I refuse to throw wads of cash at every gimmick imaginable in an attempt to succeed as a writer. It just doesn't work. But yeah, quality editorial reviews will have to figure into my future as a writer at some point. .

Tara wrote: "Agree with Nik... I will spend some money where I 'have' to but I refuse to throw wads of cash at every gimmick imaginable in an attempt to succeed as a writer. It just doesn't work. But yeah, quality editorial reviews will have to figure into my future as a writer at some point..."

Nadia wrote: " If you want to stand out, you're gonna have to put your money where your mouth is. ."

i think that most of us in this group would agree that some expenditure of money to promote one's work is required, but i think we differ in the amount, when, and where.

will $10k spent at the right time in the right place return a significant ROI?

kirkus has criteria for accepting books that they will make editorial statements about in order to make sure that their business reputation is maintained. but then it becomes a case of the tail wagging the dog. from the POV of the author, these expensive paid review services are no better than the big 5 publishers.

(Platform: Get Noticed in a Noisy World would use the term "celebrity endorsements" for "paid editorial reviews".)

how about a couple of thousand? $600 - $1000 on editing; $200 on a custom cover and then another $800 on ads/paid reviews? @$3.99/unit download and 70% amazon royalty rates, you'd need to clear 668 units to make a profit. if you have 1,000 downloads, then you make a profit of $992. 10,000 units = $26,910 gross profit.

working w/the same parameters on a $10k expenditure, you have to have a reasonable business projection of 3,344 units sold in order to break even. (note that this is w/o speaking engagements or any other kind of business income, including short stories, movie options, "computer game" options (thru the interaction-enabling publishing apps like patreon or kickstarter or other ezines)--which could very well be part of an overall business plan.))

(an aside: non-fiction is more easily paired w/speaking engagements or other kinds of business ventures.)

*raises hand tentatively*

Hmm. I'm obviously not gonna name the book. But recently I started reading a novel that had an AMAZEBALLS review from Kirkus and...

It was soooo wrong. Either that or I'm smoking some serious crack XP

*runs to corner**hoards my money**grins*

Seriously, though, I'm a huge believer of investing. Heck, when I was 18, we literally pawned everything we owned to start a sports nutrition company because there was an opportunity to be had. Annnd I'd do it again in a heartbeat. However, I also believe investing is a completely different animal than "buying" something...

Haven't decided under which category *expensive* editorial reviews fall yet. Meh. Cookie, anyone?

Hugs,
Ann

Alex - the way to recuperate the investment isn't solely through book sales, you're missing the point.

A successful first publication can lead to representation, advancements for the next book (I'm already working on mine), speaking engagements, and even movie or tv deals, depending on your content. THAT'S where the money is.

For the record, I had tried repeatedly to get my first event, to no avail; my PR got me the gig in a week. That first event got me a write up and two more events. Totally worth the investment.

No amount of money will exempt us from due diligence on our part, but smart investments can and will open doors and opportunities; at least, that's been my experience.

Yeah, with only small number of authors making really big money from writing per se, I think it's reasonable to look for diversification of income sources, based on writing, where getting onto a movie theater screens is definitely a bingo (for an appropriate genre).
The expenses seem inevitable, unless you can ensure really high professional level free of charge. If you know Rowlings and can ask her, hey J.K. please recommend my book to your followers and write a couple of sentences on editorial review part, then I guess you need no Kirkus -:)
Marketing. Recently I hear that people manage to do some really low-cost/costless promos with decent results. I think Marie Silk's successful recent promo (which she elaborated on anyway, so I feel I can refer to it), is a good example.
Marketing/advirtisement works, although to a certain degree usually, therefore it's important to spend smartly and maintain a positive balance.. We can use positive methods from our colleagues here, trial and error or outsource the entire affair for those who have no time nor desire to engage in this

Great points everyone. Nadia, i think you make some excellent observations but i think it is relevant to point out that the paradigms for fiction and non-fiction are millions of miles apart, in many ways.

I could be wrong here but i noticed that your book is a non-fiction political commentary. That could potentially explain your publishing experience, so far, and therefore, your overall approach. Your book is one that lens itself to speaking engagements, podcast and radio appearances, book signings and more niche exposure opportunities. The fact that this is an election year is the icing on the cake. 200 sales on Amazon would catapult your book in the rankings within its category, likely allowing you to claim top 20 status for a day or two while the same number of sales in a fiction category might place you in the top 1,000 for a few delightful hours. But imagine you are a romance author. With thousands od titles being released *daily* in that genre it becomes overwhelmingly difficult to stand out and get your book noticed. One's best efforts, perseverance and determination may not yield results for quite awhile, if at all. Even with a willingness to invest substantial sums on the book, an indie writing in a competitive genre may find that it is unlikely that he/she will ever have a chance to claim more than nominal success as an author.i guess my point is that there is no equation for success and even a willingness to bite the bullet and pull out your wallet are no guarantees.

Again, it depends where you live. In New Zealand, it is a waste of time looking for speaking engagements because you don't get paid for them. You might get the odd sale of a book, but . . .

My view is simple. I intend to be professional about this, and while I can make some mistakes (and I do) I always spend money with the intention/hope that when things work out, I shall make a profit.

Miss Tara...

*raises hand as romance author lost in a slew of titles*

Yeppers. I agree wholeheartedly. I think that fiction vs non-fiction, as well as each genre within (or even subgenre, for that matter) plays by different rules. Which totally makes sense, in a way. I mean, would you go about selling/marketing an Aston Martin the same way you would a Fiat 500? Errr...I think I just called romance the Fiats of literature. Imma shut up now...

Hugs,
Ann

Vroom vroom!
I think this is one subconscious reason I keep delaying my fiction debut. It is really, really hard to make a tiny blip on anyone's radar. I think of the fact that Joe Turk, indie author of Making Monsters and Breaking the Toy, is not wildly famous yet I shake my head. his writing is scary good and screams big 5 appeal yet how does he stand out in a sea of books in his genre? It is truly daunting! I harbor no illusions of any commercial success for the fiction I will write someday - literary fiction is niche and notoriously hard to budge - but I will be happy lol. Hats off to you fine ladies and gents who write in the more popular genres - I'm jealous!

I see no point in delaying. Going ahead may not work, but not progressing certainly will not. And it is not going to be any easier next year.

Ian
Is this for me or Annie?

Tara wrote: "Ian
Is this for me or Annie?"

Yep *scratches head* I was wondering the same thing. And, I was like, "I'm going, I'm going! Geez!!" XP

Ha ha! Maybe I should I publish my fiction sooner? Chop, chop!!

Yeah, Miss Tara! *turns my snobby nose up* You should do like I do. Publish in 3 weeks like an idiot and have readers (bless their hearts!) email you with all your typos. Brilliant idea! Now, get to it!! XP

My message was for anyone interested :-) Also, I did not mean to suggest you publish before the book is ready to be published - merely that there was no point on putting it a drawer and, as T S Elliot put it, waiting for rain.

Ian
Understood and agreed :) Annie and I are just in a silly mood. My particular dilemma is that I have another book in my non-fiction duo and one more non-fiction title to finish before I feel I can relax enough to indulge in exploring my fiction options. I've been toying around with the idea of blogging a series of 1,000 word short fiction excerpts just to indulge/practice while I hammer out the last of my non-fiction titles. Not to mention I may get a chance to get feedback and find out whether or not I suck.

Ooops! I think I totally sounded like a butthead there *headdesk* Just being a dork, as per usual *sigh*

Seriously, though, my apologies if that came off as sarcasm directed towards you, Mr Ian. Not my intention at all! Sorry!!!

Hugs,
Ann

Hey Annie and Tara, no need to apologise. I took no offence. I just thought I should clarify. As an aside, Tara, I am not sure 1000 word excerpts will do much to help. I have presented a number of similar excerpts to a local writers' meet, but the problem is, 1000 words or so tends to lack context, so the response sometimes is not what it might be.

Ian
Makes sense. Maybe I'll just write until it feels organic to stop. These would basically be short exercises or scenes designed to give me some practice and help me decide which ones to drop or expand upon. Any advice?

After seeing a book cover the other day with a quote at the top attributed to "Kirkus," I am seriously asking if they really hold sway with readers. I know just having an amazing quote is going to persuade some readers despite the source, just like flashy advertising attracts buyers in all markets, but I have a Clive Barker book with a quote by Steven King who is someone a horror fan is going to know and trust. When I see a book hyping a review from Kirkus, from the reader's perspective, I'm thinking to myself "who they hell is that?"

So is this just me being from a bizzaro world again, or are they really overhyped for the sake of making a buck? I mean, they're not even the NYT or USA Today, so how much sway do they really hold with consumers?

Some readers won't care in the least. Some will see that Kirkus review as the factor that tips the scale in your book's favor. It's like wearing $300 jeans. The people who will be impressed by the label are only the people who are already aware of the implied value that label represents. Other people won't notice or care. Libraries, for example, love Kirkus and Publisher's Weekly. My sister could care less. We can't pretend that editorial reviews aren't impressive to some readers nor can we pretend that they are the key to marketing success.

I wouldn't pay unless I knew it was a specific review company that reviewed humour (and it would have to be a British company also). Far too much of my books are set in fictional British villages with regional words and humour, something a global reviewer probably wouldn't get so I'd have to be very specific if I was to do something like this

Matthew
i think that's a sound approach although any good reviewer should be able to see the quality of a book that also happens to have local color. You can find books that have been successful and are similar to yours and see who reviewed them. You should be able to approach these same reviewers about your book.

Ignoring my own "I won't pay for a review" stance... the simple fact of the matter is most of us just don't have the kind of money to throw at a Kirkus or other such outlets -- and more than likely never will (because bills and other writing-related expenses). So I don't necessarily like being told I *have* to have one of these things if I'm to be taken seriously. One of the reasons I'm an indie author is so I don't have to play by the "rules." Those who can afford expensive editorial reviews and can benefit from them? Great! But I don't think it's fair to hold it against those of us who, for whatever reason, can't board that particular boat.

J.D.
I hope you don't feel that anyone here is giving the impression that editorial reviews are do or die or that any author who doesn't pay for them are somehow worthy of criticism. That is certainly not the case. It cost me almost exactly $75 to publish my book and i considered every expense very seriously. None of us are indies with an eye towards going broke lol. Still, there is merit to paid editorial reviews and I wanted to open the conversation a bit more on this thread. Your views are shared by many of us here.

Tara wrote: "J.D.
I hope you don't feel that anyone here is giving the impression that editorial reviews are do or die or that any author who doesn't pay for them are somehow worthy of criticism. That is certai..."

Not this thread, but I have been told in the past that if I don't go this route, then I shouldn't bother being a writer (then again, these are the same people who insist traditional is the only way to go and indie publishing's worthless, so perhaps that's a case of "consider the source").

Interestingly enough, Kirkus reached out to me about two weeks after I published my first novel, offering a review. It was, to be perfectly honest, really enticing... until I saw the $475 price tag. I may or may not have laughed while closing that parcticular browser window.

Kudos on them reaching out to you! Completely agree about considering the source. After all, whatever our decisions as indies the beauty lies in the fact that our decisions remain our own :)

@Mr JD: re"One of the reasons I'm an indie author is so I don't have to play by the "rules."

You're speaking my language, good sir!

Truthfully, I *can* afford to buy an expensive editorial review (please note that is singular, not plural haha) which is precisely why I don't. What would be the fun in that, right? ^_~

I totally agree that the freedom as an indie is pretty darn sweet. But, oooh, the challenge? I freakin' love the challenge!! And I don't mean challenge as in struggle, I mean challenge as in stepping outside your comfort zone and venturing into the unknown. That shizz gets me high as a kite!

With that being said, I would never presume to tell someone else that this is the route they should take. To each his own, eh? Plus, I'm the queen of "Ooops, was I not supposed to do that?" So, yeah, certainly not fit to dish out advice to anyone.

And just for the record, I don't think anyone is holding anything against anyone else here. Probably more of a consider-all-the-options type of scenario, I reckon. Just my 2 cents.

Hugs,
Ann

P.S. - I spent exactly $0.00 to publish my book.

0 cents! Lucky you lol. My cover cost me around $50 and I paid a bit extra because I felt guilty about tormenting my designer ha ha.

@Miss Tara: Umm, yeah, my cover... *looks around nervously**grins sheepishly**whispers* ...I made it myself in MS Word >_<

Hugs from the most ghetto author ever,
Ann

Ooh! I'm ready to be ghetto. As in straight ratchet

I ain't no ratchet. More like a wrench.

(I actually know that slang. Cuz I'm coo as a pigeon, yo!)

Annie fdw!

It's a natural desire to put something in the editorial section.. And yeah, if you have there something or someone with authority, for the very least it doesn't do any harm -:) Kirkus is probably not the worst option. Whether it's worth half a grand? Not sure. If you go big, you might as well get it, but if you choose (or don't have a choice really) an economical approach, then probably editing and cover design should have a clear priority. Just my opinion...

Nik
Agree and personally requesting reviews from top bloggers, genre bestsellers and A level newspapers is also worthwhile - and free.

Tara wrote: "Nik
Agree and personally requesting reviews from top bloggers, genre bestsellers and A level newspapers is also worthwhile - and free."

My local newspaper is all too happy to review my books; they run a section every Tuesday and love covering local authors. I just have to remember to actually provide them with copies to review.

J.D.
Providing copies might help lol. Sounds like you might be able to get a feature or interview out of them...maybe?

J.D. wrote: "I just have to remember to actually provide them with copies to review..."

Sounds like a pretty laid-back attitude -:)

Tara wrote: "Some readers won't care in the least. Some will see that Kirkus review as the factor that tips the scale in your book's favor. It's like wearing $300 jeans. The people who will be impressed by the ..."

That makes sense. I am a scrooge with my money, which explains why I'm that person unimpressed by the expensive review.

J.J.
Fair enough lol.

Tara wrote: "J.D.
Providing copies might help lol. Sounds like you might be able to get a feature or interview out of them...maybe?"

That's the idea. :)

there are 48 other posts and I will admit upfront to being too lazy to read them all

I planned on writing a blog post on the subject further to a recent podcast episode. However, as I have no access to my blog, here's my take on it

In all things in life, the level of success you achieve is not just about working hard. I have come to realise it is about working extremely smartly. To ensure you work smartly, you have to apply psychology and strategy.

For an editorial review to be relevant, you need to consider your target audience and your mode of distribution. You also need to consider what is success for you as an author.

If you are writing just because you can, just so you can see your name in print, then an editorial review is not for you. Unless of course you have more money than you need and you like having your ego stroked.

If you market directly to the end reader almost exclusively via online retail outlets, then editorial reviews are not for you either. Again, unless of course you have more money than you know what to do with. A lot of readers who look at reviews would prefer to see reviews from their peers

Now if you want to market to institutions, brick-and-mortar stores, then you should consider paid editorial review services. But don't just get an editorial review in isolation. Consider your distribution network.

Did you know that createspace list your books via Ingram for their expanded distribution? I read an article about it just yesterday. Feel free to look at my tweets to find the original link @iyayetunde1 too lazy right now.

Back to what I was saying, even if you use your own ISBN when uploading their title, CS is listed as the publisher on Ingram. This means that those institutions who do not want to work with an amazon company automatically bypass you.

For those institutions that would have considered you, the discount they get is not worth it. For expanded distribution, CS charges you 60%, of which Ingram takes 15%. The articles (if you care to read it) explains the figures better.

If you go direct to Ingram, you have to make sure you choose a wholesale discount of at least 55%. Retailers won't stock your book otherwise. They will list your book and order it if someone places an order.

Another thing you must do is ensure that your book is returnable. Otherwise, they won't stock it.

So there you have it, from my little research, an editorial review should be considered if you are interested in having brick and mortar stores stock your book.

Segilola wrote: "If you go direct to Ingram, you have to make sure you choose a wholesale discount of at least 55%. Retailers won't stock your book otherwise. They will list your book and order it if someone places an order.

Another thing you must do is ensure that your book is returnable. Otherwise, they won't stock it.

So there you have it, from my little research, an editorial review should be considered if you are interested in having brick and mortar stores stock your book...."

Thanks, Segilola, really insightful and pertinent!