Into the Forest discussion

Dragons won as a theme for the upcoming July 15-September Group read!
Everyone can nominate 3 books:
One adult novel retelling or influenced by myths, fairy or folktales
One young retelling or influenced by myths,fairy or folktales
One original tale or short collection of tales.
This thread will stay open one week, then the polls will go up!
So nominate away!

This one's a little tricky to nominate for, because are all books with dragons based on dragon folklore? I'm not sure what the answer is to that question. I've tried to nominate books that mention myth of fairy tale or folklore either in the description or in reader reviews.

Here are my nominations:

Adult: A Natural History of Dragons by Marie Brennan
Young Adult: Here, There Be Dragons by James A. Owen.
Original: "The Dragon of the North" and "The Dragon and his Grandmother," both in The Yellow Fairy Book collected by Andrew and Leonora Lang (should I nominate just one?)

Margaret wrote: "This one's a little tricky to nominate for, because are all books with dragons based on dragon folklore? I'm not sure what the answer is to that question. ..."

That's my problem with nominations too!
Obviously, something like Beowulf works - but only because it's old enough to be counted as an original tale in and of itself.

Or, Kenneth Graham's The Reluctant Dragon, which incorporates St. George - but that's a bit young.

Hm. I'll have to think about this for awhile!

My nominations (I haven't read any of these, but am relying on reviews -- and I agree with Margaret, a bit tricky here. So no offense taken if the mods deem these books not up to the theme. )

Adult: Tooth and Claw by Jo Walton

YA: Where the Mountain Meets the Moon by Grace Lin (more elementary grades -- ages 9 -12)

Original: The Saga of the Volsungs

Melanti wrote: "...Or, Kenneth Graham's The Reluctant Dragon, which incorporates St. George - but that's a bit young...."

But it has such great reviews!

The Reluctant Dragon is very cute and good. Even though it's for a younger audience, I think it could be nominated anyway.

Kathy wrote: "Melanti wrote: "...Or, Kenneth Graham's The Reluctant Dragon, which incorporates St. George - but that's a bit young...."

But it has such great reviews!"

It's really cute! I read it a couple of months ago, though, and I usually try to nominate things that I haven't read yet.

I just saw that A Wizard of Earthsea is on one of the Goodreads lists for dragons. I've been wanting to try Ursula K. Le Guin for sometime now, but would this book be considered fairytale or mythology inspired?

Kathy wrote: "My nominations (I haven't read any of these, but am relying on reviews -- and I agree with Margaret, a bit tricky here. So no offense taken if the mods deem these books not up to the theme. )

Adul..."

Jalilah wrote: "I just saw that A Wizard of Earthsea is on one of the Goodreads lists for dragons. I've been wanting to try Ursula K. Le Guin for sometime now, but would this book be c..."
THis is where it gets difficult!
It's been awhile, but I sort of remember Earthsea creating its own mythology rather than feeding off this world's.
But its dragons did like having hordes. How much dragon tropes do you have to throw in before it starts to qualify?



I'll nominate the obvious for YA: Dealing with Dragons.
I"m sure everyone else has already read this, but I never have.

(I was tempted to nominate A Dragon's Guide to the Care and Feeding of Humans, cause it looks amusing, but I don't know if it involves folkore/myths/fairy tales and Wrede won out.)

I'm still looking for a good adult book.

Melanti wrote: "I'll nominate the obvious for YA: Dealing with Dragons.
I"m sure everyone else has already read this, but I never have."

I've actually never read it either.

Jalilah wrote: "I just saw that A Wizard of Earthsea is on one of the Goodreads lists for dragons. I've been wanting to try Ursula K. Le Guin for sometime now, but would this book be c..."

I'm torn here. Le Guin uses folkloric tropes in the creation of her own mythology. So the novel feels very much like a mythic story, like a legend, without it being based an any specific tales. But it could certainly be discussed in terms of how it adheres to fairy tale formulas, and where it breaks away.

A lot of fiction with dragons is fantasy. I am trying to remember some typical fairy tales with dragons in them, but none come to mind!

sigh

The three tales I know that are most influenced by the folklore are The Hobbit (already read), The Dragon Hoard (out of print), and The Dragon's Cottage (which would be in poor taste for me to nominate, also is only a short story).

Hummm.

Farmer Giles of Ham. Comic tale or not, Tolkien was certainly drawing on the legends and myths he was so familiar with.

Jalilah wrote: "A lot of fiction with dragons is fantasy. I am trying to remember some typical fairy tales with dragons in them, but none come to mind!"

There's a lot of variation -- plus dragons are not so commonplace as you might think. There are the Western and Central European tales of rescuing the princess from the dragon.

Eastern European tales feature rather different ones -- in size, not character -- dragons that can ride horses and dance with or marry humans, and feature in tales much like ogres do farther west; these are the ones I used in "The Dragon's Cottage", so I know a bit about them; there's in fact a trickster tale where the hero succeeds in trapping the dragon by claiming that he and the dragon are about the same size.

Mary wrote: "Eastern European tales feature rather different ones -- in size, not character -- dragons that can ride horses and dance with or marry humans, and feature in tales much like ogres do farther west."

This reminds me of Uprooted by Naomi Novik, which is based on Eastern European folklore. The 'dragon' in this is a wizard that lives in a tower and takes one girl from a village every seven years (I think it's 7), which reminds me of that ogre comparison. But while it's a great novel and I wish I could suggest it as a possible nomination for someone, the dragon is a human--just called a dragon.

There also seems to be a big difference between Western dragons and dragons in the mythology and folklore of Asia. I think Tea with the Black Dragon may be the only book I've read that uses the idea of the Chinese dragon. Anyone know of any others?

Kelsey wrote: "There also seems to be a big difference between Western dragons and dragons in the mythology and folklore of Asia. I think Tea with the Black Dragon may be the only book I've read tha..."

I was looking for a book with the Eastern Dragon. Nice you know of one, I didn't find any by just searching.

Lawrence Yep's Dragon series presents a Chinese dragon, Shimmer, along with other Chinese folk elements. I spent some time today looking for more but was unsuccessful.

Draw One in the Dark has Eastern dragons. Its own folklore, though. (It gets farther developed in the series.)

Kelsey wrote: "There also seems to be a big difference between Western dragons and dragons in the mythology and folklore of Asia."

There is a lot of variety among the dragons of the folklore, because, frankly, any vaguely reptilian monster tends to be translated as "dragon." If we termed them long we would be less astounded.

Margaret wrote: "the dragon is a human--just called a dragon."

Oh, Eastern European dragons aren't human. Any more than ogres are. One translator, doing Folktales of Greece, resorted to not translating drakos because they were so much more like ogres than dragons in the Western depiction.

Has anyone read The Last Dragon by Jane Yolen?

Um, no, but looking at it, it looks like it's based on the short story "Dragonfield", which I have read, but don't remember too well.

Just as a reminder to everyone - a lot of books are being mentioned but not nominated, so to avoid confusion, please make sure that if you want to nominate something, you explicitly say so!

Margaret wrote: "I'm torn here. Le Guin uses folkloric tropes in the creation of her own mythology. So the novel feels very much like a mythic story, like a legend, without it being based an any specific tales...."
This is a really great way of describing Le Guin's work. I agree!

Kathy wrote: "Has anyone read The Last Dragon by Jane Yolen?"

I actually read The Last Dragon earlier this month. The story is very slight, but it definitely has the feel of a folktale/fairytale, especially when paired with the artwork. I don't think it's a retelling of anything except Yolen's pre-existing story (which I haven't read), though.

Hmmm. . . wasn't thinking about that. . . but. . . hmm. . .

sigh Folktales of Greece is out of print.

Mary wrote: "Hmmm. . . wasn't thinking about that. . . but. . . hmm. . .

sigh Folktales of Greece is out of print."

BTW, not sure if everyone noticed, but we did change the rules slightly to specify "short" for original collection. I don't think there's a firm upper limit to "short" but the general idea is less than 100-150 pgs.

If a collection is longer than this, then we'd want to focus the discussion on one or two tales from it.
(I thought we'd already mentioned this somewhere, but I don't see it, so it bears repeating.)

We'd have had to cherrypick it anyway -- they don't all feature drakos.

Did you know there's a Snow White tale in which she hangs out in the forest with forty dragons?

.. no!
That's fun!
Hm. Wonder how many anthologies I can find it in? and if there's one available enough to nominate?

From Surlalune:
The issue is the definition and translation of drachen. Most German dictionaries only offer "dragon (as in mythical lizard)" or "kite (as in go fly one)" as the translation for "drachen." However, there appears to be an almost archaic, less common reference to "heroic men" that doesn't appear in many dictionaries. But overall, scholars translate the drachen in that tale as heroic men, not literal lizardy dragons as wonderful as that may be.

http://surlalunefairytales.blogspot.c...

it is in, surprise surprise, Sleeping Beauties: Sleeping Beauty and Snow White Tales from Around the World by Heidi Anne Heiner.

another large book -- and hmmm -- not available any more. I wonder what happened. Her others are.

Well, yeah, and I own it. But for nominations' sake, it's not that practical to buy a $10-$25 anthology to read one story.

But seeing that the ebook isn't available makes me want to splurge and buy the couple of books I still don't have yet!

Oh yes. Much too large for one story for the group.

Mary wrote: "Did you know there's a Snow White tale in which she hangs out in the forest with forty dragons?"

I would nominate that as the original tale if it could be easily found!

Melanti wrote: " ( If a collection is longer than this, then we'd want to focus the discussion on one or two tales from it. I thought we'd already mentioned this somewhere, but I don't see it, so it bears repeating..."

We definitely did, but I don't remember where!

We had a discussion awhile back on dragons:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
There are a number of recommendations in it.

I still don't know what to nominate. If I don't find anything soon, I might just second the Jo Walton book.

Just to clarify, I am not nominating Earthsea.

The Jo Walton book is kind of brilliant - Think Victorian Era family squabbling over an inheritance, but with dragons instead of humans.

I've been told the closest classic equivalent is Trollope? But I've never read him.

That's another that's kind of borderline as far as the mythology/folklore components go... It's not a retelling or a fairy tale, but it does use a lot of dragon tale tropes - like sleeping on your treasure, etc.

I hesitate to disqualify anything, at this point, though since we don't have many nominations.

Nominations so far:

Adult:
A Natural History of Dragons by Marie Brennan
Tooth and Claw by Jo Walton
The Enchantment Emporium by Tanya Huff
Nice Dragons Finish Last by Rachel Aaron

Young Adult:
Here, There Be Dragons by James A. Owen.
Where the Mountain Meets the Moon by Grace Lin
Dealing with Dragons by Patricia C. Wrede
Dragon Slippers by Jessica Day George
The Forgotten Beasts of Eld by Patricia A. McKillip
The Book of Dragons by E. Nesbit
The Last Dragon by Jane Yolen
Dragonology: The Complete Book of Dragons by Dugald A. Steer

Original:
"The Dragon of the North" and "The Dragon and his Grandmother," both in The Yellow Fairy Book collected by Andrew and Leonora Lang
The Saga of the Volsungs
"Two Brothers" - Collected by Grimms
"Marigo of the Forty Dragons" - http://www.albanianliterature.net/fol...
Dragons: Their History and Symbolism by Janet Hoult


Were there any other nominations?

I found The Dragon and the George. I don't really want to read it. But maybe someone else wants to.

Grendel might be a possibility to, but I've already read that. It's a weird philosophical novel.

What about The Forgotten Beasts of Eld? McKillip often has folkloric/mythic connections, but I don't remember if this particular book does or if it's YA or adult. Or, I spotted her The Tower at Stony Wood on a listopia. I don't really remember the dragon in that, but that's very loosely inspired by "The Lady of Shallot" so it obviously has a folkloric link

I am not sure how much the two novels are based on mythology or fairytales, but here goes....
For Adult novel:
The Enchantment Emporium by Tanya Huff. Please let me know if you think it fits or not!
I won't get bent out of shape if that's the case, I'll nominate:
The Elvenbane by Andre Norton instead. I don't know if it's any better!
YA : Dragon Slippers by Jessica Day George
For the Original tale: I'll nominate the Grimm's fairy tale Two Brothers. It's on the Surlalune site.

I'll nominate The Forgotten Beasts of Eld. I think I remember folklorish elements.

For originals there is Dragons: Their History and Symbolism which is out of print, but easy enough to find used on Amazon.

There is also The Book of Dragons (free for kindle). Children's book.

Also apparently dragon shifter romances are a thing. (I am not nominating them, just saying).

I should mention that I would totally nominate The Last Dragon, except that I can't figure out which category it would go in...

Kelsey wrote: "I should mention that I would totally nominate The Last Dragon, except that I can't figure out which category it would go in..."

YA?

Dragon shifter books tend not to be folkloric, because they tend to not have the Far Eastern dragons. (Draw One in the Dark and Nice Dragons Finish Last both start interesting but rather fantasy-trope series)

Jalilah wrote: "I am not sure how much the two novels are based on mythology or fairytales, but here goes....
For Adult novel:
The Enchantment Emporium by Tanya Huff. Please let me k..."

I'd go with Huff, I can't guarentee it has any folkloric connections, but I don't recall any in Elvenbane - though, granted, it's been decades since I've read it, and I might just be forgetting things.

Kelsey wrote: "I should mention that I would totally nominate The Last Dragon, except that I can't figure out which category it would go in..."

Hm. Not sure if that'd be YA or adult and Yolen tends to write a mix of both.

I don't think it was intended to be YA when it was written 30 years ago, but it is a coming of age story and we tend to classify those as YA today...

Chris wrote: "For originals there is Dragons: Their History and Symbolism which is out of print, but easy enough to find used on Amazon.

There is also The Book of Dragons (free for k..."

Anything subtitled "A _____ Shifter Romance" and features a half-naked guy on the cover kind of scares me.

I've always meant to read E. Nesbit. I'd never heard of her when I was a kid.

Were you nominating either of those, Chris?

I'll nominate Hoult and Nesbit. Not the shifter romance things.

Chris wrote: "I'll nominate Hoult and Nesbit. Not the shifter romance things."

Lol Chris! Things?!

Melanti wrote: "Kelsey wrote: "I should mention that I would totally nominate The Last Dragon, except that I can't figure out which category it would go in..."

Hm. Not sure if that'd be YA or adul..."

To me The Last Dragon looks more like YA. It actually looks very good, so I think I will nominate it instead of Dragon Slippers for my YA novel nomination.

The Forgotten Beasts of Eld is also catagorized as YA, but I really have no idea. Daughter of the Forest is also sometimes labelled as YA, but it definitely is not.
I've been going through all the lists and it's very hard to find books that are not YA, so I don't mind if it stays in Adult.

Now you have me interested in reading these dragon shifter romances! Probably good for some laughs :)

So I had to look up some dragon shifter romances, and the number of grammar errors in their descriptions is alarming. And they don't sound nearly as inventive as what I imagined, haha.