The Sword and Laser discussion

I probably going to get skulldrug for this.

First, I know authors don't owe fans anything, they tell the story they want and we either like it or don't. But..is it just me or any other GOT fans completely just ill that GRRM, eventhough he supposedly signed off on the way the show is going and the things that are happening, he has let them pass him? Isn't that pretty much an excuse for a slow author to NEVER finish his tale?

I am probably totally wrong in my thinking, but this bugs me to no end. I am a writer and I struggle to get my ideas on the page, for someone who has talent, has a following and a great tale to let others finish it basically..just ugh.

ok..rant over

To me, it's definitely a mistake. Now people watching and reading are going to think of the show as canon when his new books come out.

some think that now

And considering he's never going to finish the series, they're right.

see? that's the thing. he will have NO reason to. It is such a cop out to my mind it just makes my blood boil

Kdawg91 wrote: "see? that's the thing. he will have NO reason to. It is such a cop out to my mind it just makes my blood boil"

I'm not so sure about that. I read an article about the 3 "holy shit moments" GRRM shared with D&D. Benioff stated in it that although some plot points would be the same the show would diverge more and more from the books and that GRRM would have less and less to do with the show. It felt a bit like he was saying we know what we need to know about the main bits and we don't care really care about the rest or what GRRM thinks.

I couldn't find the original article I saw but here is one with a bit less info: http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/game-of-...

Also an attendee at an event with GRRM and Joe Hill said that GRRM seemed disappointed with many of the differences between the show and the book but admitted that it was his own fault for not finishing The Winds of Winter nevermind the series.

He also revealed that although the meaning behind the name Hodor was the same how it will be revealed will be different in the books. Taking that with the previous posts from him confirming that Stannis is alive in the books and that there would be a big twist/reveal around a character who is alive in the books but dead in the show seems to me to back up that he is not happy and the only way to ensure that people know what his vision is for the story is to finish the series.

The question is will he be able to do this before he dies considering the pace of his writing so far.

I don't know, I think it could be a smart move for GRRM. Lets say, for instance, that his intended ending for the series is used by the show and the fans hate it (See: Lost or Battlestar Galactica). He could then just go with a new ending for the books.

I get the idea that insecurity is what's holding up the books in the series. He's not satisfied with how they are going as he writes them, then he uses the feedback from the beta readers to try and improve them but won't release until its perfect and gets held up on writing if one part is not up to his own standards. The more popular it gets, the more pressure there is to not have a bad ending or to have the later books decline in quality.

Kdawg91 wrote: "see? that's the thing. he will have NO reason to. It is such a cop out to my mind it just makes my blood boil"

Martin was spinning his wheels for a decade before the TV show began. It's not a factor.

the whole thought of the show changing and surpassing him just ticks me off

The show has always been an interpretation of the text with many changes. And it's hardly surprisingly that it passed the books. Martin releases a book a decade. It was going to happen. At least we'll have some kind of closure at all.

Kdawg91 wrote: "the whole thought of the show changing and surpassing him just ticks me off"

Why? It's his own fault.

This story was supposed to be a trilogy, which he started more than 25 years ago. The first book was published 20 years ago. After it became popular editors stopped telling him no and he went off the rails in terms of quality and quantity.

At this point the TV series is the far superior version, because it jettisons the unnecessary repetition and gets on with the story. It's been 5 years since the last novel was published and the HBO series began 5 years ago. Even if he had only written a page per day and had taken weekends and holidays off, that's 1,289 workdays between then and now. He could have already published the sixth book by now.

I guess trying to be a writer myself, Trike, it pisses me off that he let it happen.

I have no problem with the TV show and the final 2 (possibly 3) books being markedly different.

It means we still have a lot to look forward to read.

My only problem is that at the pace George is going, one of us won't live to see it finished.

He will never finish, and I think at least past the second book, he never really intended to. He's given interviews allegedly about television where shows just went on and on until they went off the air one day with no resolution, and having no problem with that. We all know he was talking about A Song of Ice and Fire, right?

I'll read Winds of Winter if it ever comes out, but I've made my peace with it being 800 pages of filler and chaff, like the last one, and then a big shocking cliffhanger.

Joe wrote: "To me, it's definitely a mistake. Now people watching and reading are going to think of the show as canon when his new books come out."

I'm pretty sure that I've seen twitter posts from people thinking that Harry Potter books were novelization of the movies.

you can always bet on people being retarded

So, if GRRM doesn't finish the series before he dies, will Brandon Sanderson finish it for him? Or will Alan Dean Foster just write a novelization of the TV show?

Randy wrote: "So, if GRRM doesn't finish the series before he dies, will Brandon Sanderson finish it for him? Or will Alan Dean Foster just write a novelization of the TV show?"

The idea of a nice Mormon boy like Sanderson finishing Game of Thrones made me legit LOL.

Sanderson has his own Stormlight Archive to finish. Some of his fans are restless enough for the next one, picking up GOT would not be received well.

somebody else finishes it and I won't pick it up

Shad wrote: "Sanderson has his own Stormlight Archive to finish. Some of his fans are restless enough for the next one, picking up GOT would not be received well."

Listening to him talk about GoT on his podcast, he's too squeamish to even read the books.

He's very, very American in his sensibilities, in that he likes sanitized violence but squicks out about sex. I get the distinct impression that he's the perfect audience for Hays Code Hollywood, where people get killed but you never see blood, and sex is, at the most, implied.

I know the perfect finisher for GOT, Rothfuss. ;-)

In reality, I wonder if it wouldn't fall to the James Corey boys to finish it, with there connection and all. Although, I could also see it going unfinished if the TV/movie series was finished.

or Joe Abercrombie.

Everybody dies.

Tassie Dave wrote: "or Joe Abercrombie.

Everybody dies."

Choke. Snort.
Wipes tea off of screen.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I have no problem with the TV show and the final 2 (possibly 3) books being markedly different.

It means we still have a lot to look forward to read.

My only problem is that at the pace George is going, one of us won't live to see it finished."

My thoughts exactly, Dave. I am older than George (but in better health, I think). Odds are that I will never read the final volume.

Trike wrote: "Shad wrote: "Sanderson has his own Stormlight Archive to finish. Some of his fans are restless enough for the next one, picking up GOT would not be received well."

Listening to him talk about GoT ..."

And yet I found Shadows of Self darker than the GoT tv show(stopped reading the books, because fluff). But I think the problem with that is that in GoT it's expected and the grim dark becomes predictable we are all waiting for how it will get worse, while in Shadows of Self it was a slow drive down into crushing depression and you were like it's gotta get better right...RIGHT!!!, then it got worse. But I do agree otherwise that the series isn't the right fit, GoT is 100% bleak blackness and grey, Sanderson always has his giant beacon of good/hope in his books.

I think the show will motivate him to finish quickly.
His notes are done anyway if you're worried about his age.

He can't be happy with the TV story lines. All the intrigue, suspense and surprises are gone now, GRRM must have a very different story with more Tyrion and less Jon Snow with a man-bun.

Richardya wrote: "I think the show will motivate him to finish quickly.
His notes are done anyway if you're worried about his age.

He can't be happy with the TV story lines. All the intrigue, suspense and surprise..."

Except GRRM is a pantser, not a plotter. A discovery writer rather than an outliner.

He's said that he knows what the ending is and has a couple signposts, but he doesn't know the details. He finds them as he goes and changes things as he writes.

^I don't agree. All of the 'twists' of the books were heavily foreshadowed. I'm more impressed that anyone is caught off guard by them. GRRM main strength is that everyone has become so accustomed to how stories unfold that they refuse to consider that it could go a different way.

J wrote: "^I don't agree. All of the 'twists' of the books were heavily foreshadowed. I'm more impressed that anyone is caught off guard by them. GRRM main strength is that everyone has become so accustomed ..."

You're confusing the finished stories with how they're written.

Once he finds the story, he goes back and either tweaks or totally rewrites earlier parts so that it comes across as a whole.

I'm not deducing this from his books, this is how he describes his process.

Sami wrote: "Most writers are a mixture between plotter and pantser....okay, maybe I'm wrong and I'm just speaking for myself lol, but I'd wager it is so, and Martin would fall under this, since he seems to kno..."

Every author falls somewhere on the scale, so that's a safe bet. All I'm relating is what GRRM has said himself about his process. There are hundreds of hours of interviews on YouTube where he describes it himself. He doesn't even do world building the way most Fantasy authors do; sometimes he just wings it.

My favorite comment he's made about this is when someone wrote to him and asked to know more about the language of the Dothraki. He replied, "I have no idea how it works. I've written six words of Dothraki. When I need a seventh, I'll make that up, too."

this has gotten way more comments than I expected lol

Trike wrote: "My favorite comment he's made about this is when someone wrote to him and asked to know more about the language of the Dothraki. He replied, "I have no idea how it works. I've written six words of Dothraki. When I need a seventh, I'll make that up, too."

That made me smile.

^ Lol I also love that!

Here GRRM is making a similar comment about worldbuilding and Dothraki, although I heard it in a different interview. Around the 16:00 minute mark.

http://youtu.be/9vm6ttFHDTE

Trike wrote: "My favorite comment he's made about this is when someone wrote to him and asked to know more about the language of the Dothraki. He replied, "I have no idea how it works. I've written six words of Dothraki. When I need a seventh, I'll make that up, too"

It was High Valyrian, iirc. I think even in A Game of Thrones (the first book, not the tv show) there are more than six Dothraki words. That being said, there are obviously some things he has plotted in advance. Cersei's prophecy, for example, was written books and decades before we saw most of it play out.

Am I the only GoT fan who likes the story more than the writing, if you take my meaning?

I had to force myself to finish Dance. Half of that damned tome could have been trimmed with no loss of quality. Martin has my respect, but also one of the worst cases of Steve King Disease in recent popular literature. I shudder at what a bullet-stopping bulkasaurus Winds of Winter will likely be.

I found the recently concluded, televised Season Six delightful...to the point where I almost - almost, mind - don't care if the next book actually arrives.