Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion

You make very interesting points, Dwayne. You always appear here and there and say something valuable. I wish you could participate more with us!

Dave wrote: "Even when I mention that I'm reading Proust to my local book club they look at me with a mixture of horror and pity like I just said I was in the process of cutting off my arms with a butter knife."

LOL!

Dave, at least people there react knowing who Proust is… when I tried talking about him to a friend, she smiled and replied as if she knew him. “But the intensity of her mimicry could not fill the place of that light which is absent from our eyes so long as we do not understand what people are trying to tell us."
I tried another person and he had no idea who Proust was and said "is he good? His books aren't famous like The Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire..."


Dwayne wrote: "Maybe instead of lies, I should have said her blunt delivery of her opinions as fact ... her opinions on which she flip-flops to suit the listener, or to get the greatest reaction."

I know what you mean, Dwayne. Mme. de Guermantes is someone people admire. Look at Princess de Parma, for instance: whatever Oriane tells her, she'll take as the truth, and she'll pass it along. A simple vile comment can be turned into a hot gossip easily. In different proportions, of course, that's more or less how the Dreyfus Affair happened. An influencer (is this a word? do you know a mean? I mean someone who can shift people's perceptions, who's in a position to do that) - even not sure himself of what he was saying - convinced half of France that Dreyfus was guilty of treason. Again, of course, it wasn't as basic as I put it, but I think it's the same concept.

Renato wrote: "You make very interesting points, Dwayne. You always appear here and there and say something valuable. I wish you could participate more with us!"

You're so kind! I love reading what you guys are saying ... I do try to read the discussions every week, but sometimes only get a minute to pop in with something I'm burning to share. Have been super busy with work and life. And it also takes me a while to think about and post a comment. I'm so glad to have this team here to read along with!

Dwayne wrote: "I am in awe of your being ahead of the reading schedule. Nice! I'm kind of a slow reader, and am especially so with Proust."

I am in awe of the folks who read ISOLT "conventionally." I've mentioned before that I tried several times and never got past page 20. I learned a while back that reading while listening to the Audiobook really gives me a big boost in understanding complex sentences etc. I don't listen to Proust in the car etc. I sit reading along as the book is read. Experiencing the words by sight and sound has an effect of the sum is greater than the parts. Comprehension and retention go way up. I don't speak french so the reader's correct pronunciation of names and places "places them in my mind"correctly. Hearing them over and over gives me a familiarity that I never got "conventionally" - I would have just been filling in some shortcut such as "the Duc de G" which for me is a big hinderance in mental visualization of characters.

I am reading the ebook (.99 public domain volumes) that match the translation the Audiobook uses (Naxos Neville Jason Reader). I use a Kindle App on my iPad. It has a downloadable dictionary. So all the words Proust uses that I don't know I just tap the screen and the definition comes up. Usually don't even pause the reading.

Highlighting to me is important also in this complex a book. I have four colors immediately available and I use them as follows:
-Yellow - Passages that indicate shift in time or place. As we've gotten into the novel I notice that Proust will often say something like "We approached the door. I noticed a rose beside the door...." Then he may go off for 3-20 pages of interior monologue on something the rose triggers. So I highlight the first sentence. Then, if 16 pages later I've forgotten where "we" are I can flip back and find the most recent yellow highlight and say "Oh yeah, we are still approaching the door. I've also notice he does not use conventional paragraphing. For instance, following on the previous example, after 16 pages he will be in the middle of a long paragraph and then write "We reached the door." Then he may digress for multiple pages. But I highlight that so I update the location.
- Blue I use to highlight interesting or funny quotes or situations. I use blue a lot.
-Orange I use for character's names and titles. Usually just the first time they are introduced - in the story or when spoken about." In big social scenes I have begun highlighting names and tracking arrival and departure. My own little traveler's aid booth at the Proust Airport.
-Red Major disclosures of information about characters or plot development. Also when the author speaks directly to the reader (increasingly common in S&G and following volumes) and when the narrator or author promises additional information at a future point in the story.

The specific colors are obviously not important, but I would be completely lost if I didn't use some sort of highlighting system.

Renato, did you see my comment on Charlus' appearance back at comment 47 (I think) this discussion thread is now 2 pages long.

Dwayne wrote: "but my sense of her is that she -- like all of the Guermantes in The Guermantes Way -- is a gossip who tells stories for effect with little regard for how they may affect others' perceptions of the subjects of the stories. "

Thanks for elaborating that Dwayne. I think your observation is right on the money! In fact, when you put it like that it dawned on me that I am the Duchesses of Guermantes! And so is everybody I know!

I had observed the same "flaws" that you do but early on in the novel I began noting that how people behaved (and how brilliantly Proust describes human conscious thought) is essentially unchanged from today. The media today is full of tragic stories of teenage suicides that are motivated by vicious and untrue gossip in social media. And it cannot be erased. If Proust's characters had Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, email and Smartphones imagine how ugly and vicious they could be! Just as well they didn't, we would be on Volume 17 and the narrator would still be in bed in Combray waiting for his mother to kiss him goodnight while he "stayed in touch on social media."

I find the comments on each person's reading style fascinating as I think it's crucial for certain books. I read Ulysses last year, and I'd tried it before and failed, but once I found a method of reading it that worked for me then I actually enjoyed it.

The same applies with Proust, although I use a slightly different method. I'm a slow-ish reader anyway, at least I'm not very good at blasting my way through a book, even a relatively simple one, so I take my time reading, about 30 pages at a time, as I find my concentration starts to slip if I try to read more. I can then do the weekly reading usually in one day at the weekend in two installments. I find if I have the time and I feel that I'd benefit from it then I sometimes re-read some or all of the previous week's material before advancing on to the next week's material. Sunny-in-Wonderland does the exact opposite and loves blasting through the book in a couple of weeks, which is impressive, but impossible for me.

Personally I don't like audiobooks too much as the narrator is usually too much of a distraction and I feel that I don't concentrate as much. However your method, Dave, of combining the audiobook with the actual book may work for me but only if I struggled with the real book.

I find I now consciously pay attention to what point he's making when he does one of his asides so that I don't have to track back later on to find out what he was going on about. I think reading Proust has improved my reading skills, which is good. Any symbolism, however, just passes me by I'm afraid. Even when it's pointed out to me I often feel that the author didn't intend it and it's just the reader that has projected their thoughts on to the book - but that's a known blind spot for me.

Coloured highlights wouldn't help me at all but I'm glad they work for you Dave. :-)

Jonathan wrote: "I find the comments on each person's reading style fascinating as I think it's crucial for certain books. I read Ulysses last year, and I'd tried it before and failed, but once I found a method of ..."

Good points Jonathan, I may get back to you on how you tackled Ulysses. Its on my "to do" list but I've decided to tackle Don Quixote as my next "big book" project.

I enjoy hearing about the methods people use to read literature. It does require "work but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

There may be a Proustian connection to my love of listening to Audio Books. Both my grandmothers read to me and I have always counted those as some of my best childhood memories. Finding a narrator I enjoy has become as important as finding an author. I have one narrator that I'm working my way down the books he has recorded.

I wouldn't use colored highlighters if I was reading a hard copy book. But perhaps pencil underlining with colored tabs. There is too much in Proust I want to be able to find again.

Dave wrote: "Renato, did you see my comment on Charlus' appearance back at comment 47 (I think) this discussion thread is now 2 pages long."

Ops, Dave, I hadn't seen it, thanks for pointing that out!

Dave wrote: "2. In "The Captive" Charlus and the Narrator are in conversation and Charlus, referring to his age states that he is "past Forty" and the Narrator says in an aside "in fact he was past Sixty."

I have to admit I find it hard to reason how to reconcile this with the age of an even older Guermantes generation in Mme Villparesis and perhaps others I can't recall. "

Well, maybe it's got something to do with the time passing from one volume to another? I don't know what's the time lapse between The Guermantes Way, Sodom and Gomorrah and The Captive. I don't want to know though, don't tell me! Haha!

In Captive events at end of S&G were referred to as "last summer", There was a stated two year break between Swann's Way and Budding Grove. I'm uncertain of break between Budding Grove & Guermantes Way. S&G begins same day as GW ends. Somewhere (I think in S&G) the narrator muses about the turn of the Century. My rough estimate is no more than 10 years have past since beginning to where I am now. And "now" is 1901-1903. There are technology references and Dreyfus references in S &G that may allow you or Jonathan to more closely calculate the date if you're interested. Its all closely analyzed in refernce books etc. I'm sure, but I'd rather try to sort it out from the text.

Anyway, I just came to another person pointing out Charlus in a crowd as "the stout gentleman with white hair and a moustache"

Dave, I never tried an audiobook before, but for some reason I have the feeling I would completely drift off while listening to one! I oughta try one someday though :)

I do listen to nature sounds on my headphones while reading in order to isolate myself from the sounds and all the noise around me.

I use a Kindle Paperwhite to read Proust, but i never highlight anything - and it doesn’t offer me nice colors either! Doesn’t it feel like the highlighting slows you down? I’m just curious cause I never tried it to be honest. I’m impressed at how organized you are though!

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My Proust reading habits are in line with Jonathan's: I normally read all the week’s section on Saturday or Sunday, and I divide it in two chunks as well.

Plus I always stop to do some research on the things he mentions and I’ve never heard about - I, for one, never knew flowers’ names aside from roses and daisies. So I’m always coming back after I saw (I’m very visual) what he meant and re-read those parts to fully ‘get’ them.

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Jonathan wrote: "I find the comments on each person's reading style fascinating as I think it's crucial for certain books. I read Ulysses last year, and I'd tried it before and failed, but once I found a method of reading it that worked for me then I actually enjoyed it. "

Jonathan, can you share what was your method for reading Ulysses? I'm always playing with the possibility of reading it soon but I'm a bit afraid of jumping into it completely blind.

Dave wrote: "There are technology references and Dreyfus references in S &G that may allow you or Jonathan to more closely calculate the date if you're interested."

We'll definitely be discussing the events and dates from the Dreyfus affair!

I might well drift off listening to Audiobooks if I was not actively reading the text at the same time. Before I "discovered" my current method,my only experience with Audiobooks was in the car, which I didn't care for. I considered Jonathan's comment that he would find in intrusive (correct me if I'm misquoting Jonathan) and why that wasn't so with me? Actually it is just the opposite for me. Its like reading a book with "surround-sound" or "Cinemascope" it is just so much richer an experience. Telling stories and professional storytellers were around since the Neolithic Age up until literacy was widespread (100-200 years ago?) In the US now professional storytellers are making a comeback and forming guilds (beyond book narrators). The good narrators don't just read the book, they dramatize it with a different voices and sounds (laughter, coughing, etc. Some audiobooks use multiple narrators. I can set the iPad down and go to the refrigerator while still listening and know exactly who is talking from the voices.

This must be a growing experience because Amazon owns Audible and they offer the Audiobook at steep discount when you buy the ebook. You can go to Audible.com and browse and listen to samples. For you there is an added advantage. My wife is an English as a second language teacher and she has noted how much her students would get out of it.

I'm not familiar with the Kindle Paperwhite, but perhaps it offers different types of highlighting like double lines etc. No, the underlining is not distracting. I use it often when I read ebooks. I never underlined hardcopy books. When I shift my eyes on the page I am still listening to the narrator. Its like keyboarding, with practice you get very fast without conscious effort. The brain can do a lot more than we usually let it if we learned to "let go." I can't remember using four colors before. I've just developed it as I went along and realized there was different types of info I wanted to keep track of. All notes and highlights can be reviewed and searched.

Re: times & dates. In an earlier post I mentioned that it was mentioned at the Guermantes shindig that King Edward was mentioned. This means that Queen Victoria was dead, i.e. 1901 or after. This didn't quite match with the comment (I believe, though I'll have to check this) at the Villeparisis do that that the Zola trial was ongoing - that was 1898. Proust treats time quite fluidly though that I'd have to check these.

Renato wrote "Plus I always stop to do some research on the things he mentions and I’ve never heard about - I, for one, never knew flowers’ names aside from roses and daisies. So I’m always coming back after I saw (I’m very visual) what he meant and re-read those parts to fully ‘get’ them. "

You should publish a coffe table book Renato - "Proust's Posies"!

Here is another example of different reading styles. I too come across things I want to look up but I find stopping to look things up too intrusive. Instead I highlight the item and come back later. I have looked up several flowers.

Jonathan wrote: "Re: times & dates. In an earlier post I mentioned that it was mentioned at the Guermantes shindig that King Edward was mentioned. This means that Queen Victoria was dead, i.e. 1901 or after. This d..."

Yes, I remember now you mentioned that Jonathan, I had read it and not considered the time placement it implied.

The time displacement may be accounted for by the fact that the whole book is a reflection on past events. The author "steps into" the narrative to speak to the reader more and more as the novel progresses.

Dave wrote: "You should publish a coffe table book Renato - "Proust's Posies"!"

I did a quick search and apparently there isn't a book like that, haha! That's surprising!

Renato, My Ulysses reading method was basically this: first of all decide where the different chapters are - the chapter positions aren't always obvious but there can be a complete shift in subject and style. So I treated each chapter as a separate novel almost and tried to read it one or two chunks. Once I'd read the chapter and allowed time to digest what I could I then read some notes (from various sources) to find out all the things that I should have noticed but probably didn't. I didn't worry too much about not understanding it but only read a chapter when I was in the mood for it.

At first I tried to read it fast thinking I could get through it quickly - that was my big mistake - mind you it only took about 5 weeks in total.

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "You should publish a coffe table book Renato - "Proust's Posies"!"

I did a quick search and apparently there isn't a book like that, haha! That's surprising!"

I'd buy a copy. Or you could do a website and Marcelita could send future Proust Groups your link!

Oh, yes. I would definitely weave any book into the Proust-resource tapestry.
Again, because sometimes we forget...the best site for exploring the chronology of the novel.
Spoilers!
Mark Calkins' Temps Peru
http://www.tempsperdu.com/chrono.html

Thanks again Marcelita, you are a treasure!

Marcelita, I reviewed the sight, lots of interesting info but no spoilers for me. I couldn't make heads or tails of much of it. However, I do have questions about Dr Calkins' chronology at the bottom. (which he has thoughtfully provided way for feedback)

I'm almost finished with The Captive, I don't think what I'm going to write is spoilers but does talk about technology that appears in the narrative and a historical event linked to the narrative.

The webmaster has The Captive/ Fugitive as 1900-1902. I believe that is 5 years too early for the following reasons.
- In S&G the narrator speaks rapturously of an "aeroplane" that flys over. He knows about them but has never seen one. The Wright Brothers achieved their first powered flight in December 1903. It would take at least a two or three year span to have them flying around France (an airplane enthusiast can figure this out).
- In S&G the transition to automobiles is well underway. Characters ride around in them but more importantly, automobile infrastructure is well advanced. There are roads all over the countryside, mechanics and chauffeurs for hire, even in smaller towns, etc. The automobile is no longer a curiosity or rich-man's toy. Again, an auto enthusiast can look this up.
- 41% of The Captive (at least) occurs on one day. At the end of that day the narrator says "at this same time there occurred a diplomatic incident" and mentions "Delcasse" by name, speaks of his anti-german sentiment which lead to his resignation as Foreign Minister. In Wikipeadia the article on Theophile Delcasse says that his anti-german sentiment caused a diplomatic incident with Germany that ended with his resignation as Foreign Minister in "early 1906".
- The Captive occurs in winter (coats are put on and off, almost all narrated events are indoors). During the long day in The Captives, girls are observed outdoors "taking advantage of the sunshine" with a reference to the brightness being unusual on "these February days."
- There is reference to events in S&G as occurring "last summer", which would be 1905 based on Delcasse timestamp.

I realize Proust was writing a massive novel with lots to keep track of and may have misplaced these type things or used artistic license. But he was a genius and I'm cautious about deciding a genius has made a mistake.

Well, the email for Dr Mark Calkins is not found. Has he left San Francisco State Marcelita?

Wow, at least 41% of The Captive takes place in one day? Is it a very long dinner party? Haha!

A social event does occur Renanto.

Renato wrote: "Wow, at least 41% of The Captive takes place in one day? Is it a very long dinner party? Haha!"

I went back through the first section of The Captive reviewing the time clues. I can state with confidence my opinion that 60% of that volume occurs on one day. It was a bright, sunny day in February, 1906. I think the day of the week can be determined too, but I'm not going to look for that now.

That's the volume you said you were having difficulty with though, right? As it wasn't grabbing your attention as much as S&G had?

The opening was a struggle, like Swan's Way, but it picked up and became very good. I just finished it.

That's good to hear!

I believe that you can finish the last two volumes in the next two weeks, start over with Swann's Way in the middle of July, and by September you'll start re-reading The Captive with us again! Sounds doable? :)

Lol, sounds like a plan! However my wife will come back eventually and I won't be able to lounge around reading all day.

Dave wrote: "Well, the email for Dr Mark Calkins is not found. Has he left San Francisco State Marcelita?"

You are certainly correct regarding the dates of airplanes-being later that 1902; 1906 may be the earliest.

The chronologies may help some with the general time-outline, but you will soon discover it's not only the dates that are not aligned. Some characters die only to be resurrected in later volumes!

Alas, the last three books did not go through the careful editing/re-writing as the previous four.

Here is the website of Dr. Mark Calkins' reading group; his email is listed at the bottom.
http://www.milibrary.org/events/prous...

"Contact Dr. Calkins at [email protected]."

Thanks so much Marcelita! Oh, resurrected characters! So Proust has written a new Bible! I'm finding so many quotes to highlight, someone should assign verse numbers!

Will this finally be the Bible I can endorse? :)

Renato wrote: "Will this finally be the Bible I can endorse? :)"

Does ISOLT have a Portuguese translation Renato? If not, that could be your calling ;)

It actually does, I'm reading it in Portuguese, and it's a very good one. I was skeptic about reading it but I compared it to the English translations and it's good. Well, unless the English translations aren't good... haha

Anyway, in some years I want to read it all in French! Good luck to me, right?

Interesting. You should share a few lines in Portuguese. I'd like to copy them into my google translation and see what turns up in English. lol

Renato wrote: "Will this finally be the Bible I can endorse? :)"

I just read Fionnuala's (member of GoodReads 2013) review of Joseph Czapski's "Proust contre la déchéance. Conférence au camp de Griazowietz"

Her last paragraph,

"Czapski covers a lot of themes in this 60 page essay but perhaps the most moving aspect for me is his firm acknowledgement that Proust, who never mentions God in his thousands of printed pages, shows himself nevertheless to be the most tolerant of individuals, seeking simply to understand the passions which drive us all, the base and so-called degenerate as well as the more noble and pure of mankind’s obsessions. That this idea could be seen and understood by a man being held prisoner in dreadful conditions by an enemy force is proof of what Proust himself believed in most fervently: the redeeming power of art."
Fionnuala
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

At last year's Proust conference at Columbia University, there was a discussion regarding the high numbers of (French) dissertations from philosophy departments.
I will find and post the videos of the conference, which alternated between French and English. Also discussed was the difficulty in getting French dissertations approved with a LGBT slant.

Roundtable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJib8...

Dave wrote: "Interesting. You should share a few lines in Portuguese. I'd like to copy them into my google translation and see what turns up in English. lol"

LOL that's an interesting experiment! Here's the conversation between Oriane and Swann when he revealed he's sick:

— Diga então numa palavra o que é que o impede de ir à Itália — disse a duquesa, erguendo-se para se despedir de nós.
— Mas minha querida amiga, é que então estarei morto há vários meses. Segundo os médicos que consultei, no fim do ano o mal que tenho, e que pode aliás levar-me em seguida, não me deixará em todo caso mais de três ou quatro meses de vida, e ainda é um grande maximum — respondeu Swann sorrindo, enquanto o criado abria a porta envidraçada do vestíbulo para deixar passar a duquesa.
— Que é que me está dizendo?! — exclamou a duquesa, parando um segundo na sua marcha para o carro e erguendo seus belos olhos azuis e melancólicos, mas cheios de incerteza. Colocada pela primeira vez na vida entre dois deveres tão diferentes como subir ao carro para ir jantar fora e testemunhar piedade a um homem que vai morrer, não encontrava nada no código das conveniências que lhe indicasse a jurisprudência a seguir e, não sabendo a qual dar preferência, julgou que devia fingir que não acreditava na segunda alternativa, obedecendo assim à primeira, que demandava naquele momento menos esforço, e pensou que a melhor maneira de resolver o conflito seria negá-lo. — Está gracejando? — perguntou ela.
— Se fosse um gracejo, seria de um delicioso bom gosto — respondeu ironicamente Swann. — Não sei por que lhe digo isso. Até agora, nunca lhe havia falado na minha doença. Mas como me perguntou e agora posso morrer de um dia para outro... Mas, antes de tudo, não quero que se atrase, vai jantar fora — acrescentou ele, que bem sabia que, para os outros, as suas próprias obrigações mundanas têm primazia sobre a morte de um amigo, e que se punha no caso deles , graças à sua polidez. Mas a da duquesa lhe permitia também aperceber-se confusamente de que o jantar aonde ia devia contar menos para Swann do que a sua própria morte. Assim, enquanto continuava o caminho para o carro, deu de ombros dizendo: “Não se preocupe com esse jantar. Não tem a mínima importância!”.

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "Interesting. You should share a few lines in Portuguese. I'd like to copy them into my google translation and see what turns up in English. lol"

LOL that's an interesting experiment! ..."

I translated the second paragraph you sent through Babylon and this is what I got:
"But my dear friend, is that then I'll be dead for several months. According to doctors that I have seen, at the end of the year, the evil that I have, and that it could in fact lead me then, I do not fail in any case more than three or four months of life, and still is a great maximum - Swann replied smiling, while the created opened the glass door of the vestibule to pass the duchess."

Decipherable, but I think I'll stick with Scott Montcrieff's translation.

Marcelita wrote: "Renato wrote: "Will this finally be the Bible I can endorse? :)"

I just read Fionnuala's (member of GoodReads 2013) review of Joseph Czapski's "Proust contre la déchéance. Conférence au camp de Gr..."

Marcelita, that book sounds really cool, wow. Just the story of its existence is already very interesting!

I really enjoyed that part of Fionnuala's review you highlighted. My admiration for Proust grows more and more every day. :)