World, Writing, Wealth discussion

At the time I read most of Harry Potters. No, I didn't suffer through, but neither was I extremely impressed or entertained. So why to read? Because everyone was talking about it. Seemed kinda strange not to know what all the buzz was about...
I didn't follow to 50 shades, nor to most other blockbusters and I should probably feel a certain void in my overall education, because of that -:)

But what do you think concerns the readers more: to find the best personal literary fit or to be on top of things in a small (literary) talk?

Most readers just go for what they like. Others read more voraciously and devour both little known and best selling titles alike. When a book series comes along and gains fans from both of these groups then you've got a tidal wave blockbuster on your hands. Either way there is no success without word of mouth.

-:)

I agree in one sense that the willingness to try a new book or series may be very much about being in the know when it comes to popular tastes and interests. But that doesn't explain the rabid loyalty many people feel for a series. Curiosity might explain the first best-seller but when the second and third book in a series is pre-selling in the millions months before it comes out there is something else going on for sure. In addition many books are propelled into super stardom only after internet chatter turns into buzz which turns into anticipation which turns into huge success. There are readers who will give a book a try based on popularity and what everyone else is saying about it - but given that the average reader buys 12 books a year it seems that they stick with a book or series only because they have truly become a fan. The more popular the book the more talent the writer displayed in capturing the readers' interest. This may or may not involve literary skill but people like what they like and know what they want.

Denise
You are entirely correct about the Potter books. I personally remember a friend of mine saying how grateful she was for the books because it was the first time she did not have to beg her grandson to read. They spent many happy hours reading the Potter books, going to see the movies etc. It inspired him to begin other series and she credits Rowling for that.

You are very close to the mark as far as the 50 Shades books are concerned. For the record, Anna is never taken against her will in the books. The BDSM relationships in the books are consensual ones between willing adults. The allure of the series had more to do with the billionaire Alpha male fantasy with a bit of sexual daring thrown in to give it just enough of the verboten to intensify the buzz. In addition 50 Shades was one of the biggest successes in its genre because of good timing - readers were using readers such as Kindle and Nook in record numbers - one advantage of which is the fact that casual observers can't see what you are reading - no book cover. The prim librairian on her way home in the evening on the bus may not necessarily be reading a knitting manual ;)

Tara wrote: "one advantage of which is the fact that casual observers can't see what you are reading - no book cover. The prim librairian on her way home in the evening on the bus may not necessarily be reading a knitting manual ;)..."

-:) Just imagined the entire scene. I thought they could use paper wrappings for delicate titles, as I heard you need to hide the beer to be able to drink it outdoors -:)

rotfl Nik you never disappoint!

@Miss Denise: Like Miss Tara already said, Ana was never taken against her will. In reality, she was actually the one in complete control of their relationship. Methinks this is the appeal.

With that being said, dark erotic romance has definitely secured some footing in the past few years. I, myself, am a HUGE fan!! There is some incredible talent in the subgenre - CJ Roberts, Pepper Winters, Aleatha Romig, just to name a few - but it still deals with topics of taboo. I call them NSFPolitics hahaha.

Yeah, I don't think 50 Shades would've made the Hollywood bigscreen had Ana been a victim of rape, abduction, human sex trafficking, etc. But I dunno. I could be wrong, of course XD

Hugs,
Ann

Annie fdw

Tara wrote: "Annie fdw"

but ana didn't do the domination, right? if she did, then i wonder if that would've drawn an audience? i mean, i could see a pro futbol striker from arsenal on the underground w/his kindle wrapped in a brown paper bag.

Haha Miss Tara! You make me smile. And giggle. All good stuff, ya know? ^_~

Alex you're so close and you don't even know it.
*tries not to make eye contact with Annie*

A common misconception amongst people who have never read/experienced BDSM is that doms are the ones in power. This is most certainly not the case. Subs hold all the power and are often worshipped my their doms. Ana is no exception to this general rule.

Lucian Bane is a perfect example in both his personal life and as a successful indie author. He refers to himself as an "ineffable dom" (with his wife being the sub) and his MCs make Christian Grey look like a newborn kitten.

@Mr Alex: Nope. Ana's the sub, Christian's the dom. The opposite dynamic certainly exists in fiction, though ^_~

@Miss Tara: Oh, c'mon now... *offers cookies?*

Hugs,
Ann

EDIT: *in fiction and reality

Annie wrote: "A common misconception amongst people who have never read/experienced BDSM is that doms are the ones in power. This is most certainly not the case. Subs hold all the power and are often worshipped ..."

ah. thx for clearing that up (in general and specifically). from reading the sample (or some part of 50) several months ago, i thought Ana was the sub.

so, then back to my main question:

would the reverse have been as popular?

@Mr Alex: You were correct, good sir. Ana IS the sub. 100%.

Hmm. To answer your question: No, I don't believe it would have been.

Not to say there's not a niche market because there absolutely is! Without a doubt!! But I think having a woman as a dom takes away from the fantasy for most mainstream female readers. Especially if a woman hasn't actually lived the BDSM lifestyle, I reckon she's more comfortable sitting back passively and being "taken" by a book dom. For her to actively take the reins, I imagine would be quite the leap from reality.

There are exceptions to every rule. Obviously.

Personally, I most enjoy books that are true to real life...but just...with a bit more oompf, ya know? Heck! I don't consider myself a passive person by any stretch of the imagination but I still looove me a seriously dominant man. I've enjoyed my fair share of abduction role play among other hush-hush things. And I am ALWAYS submissive in the bedroom (Not out of the bedroom! So don't even try. Cuz I'll take ya down in a heartbeat *smirks*).

Hugs,
Ann

That's our Annie ;)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IIEVqFB...

Annie wrote: "@Mr Alex: You were correct, good sir. Ana IS the sub. 100%.

Hmm. To answer your question: No, I don't believe it would have been.

Not to say there's not a niche market because there absolutely ..."

oh man. i am laughing and crying so hard. i'm sure that my face is beet red if i looked in the mirror, right now. (i just looked--it isn't.) good thing i wasn't taking a sip of my morning coffee when i got to the last para.

btw, that was a good build up. i had to read that last sentence (before the parethentical statement) twice to make sure i got it.

you are a good writer.

Idk Annie...Alex is right. Short story! Short story!

ROFLMAO, guys!! I was being serious hahahahaha!!

I totally dig this shizz in real life and *grins sheepishly* absolutely indulge in some "questionable" reads that take it to a whole nother level of...um...wrong? Of course, I'd never actually wanna be abducted and forced into sex slavery but I sure don't mind reading about it. Yeah, yeah...

*collective feminist eye roll*

Don't judge ^_~

Hugs,
Ann

P.S. - Miss Tara...I may already have a few shorts of the latex variety...

*wipes condensation from glasses...wonders how Annie feels about artisanal biscotti*

Nooo! *frowns at artisANAL biscotti* That's a hard limit!!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist hahaha!! Mr Nik, you may wanna start censoring me...

*tears up contract...drums fingers*

Yeeeeah. You're effin' awesome, Miss Tara.

That is all.

it's all in the wrist. Please and thank you.

Annie wrote: "Nooo! *frowns at artisANAL biscotti* That's a hard limit!!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist hahaha!! Mr Nik, you may wanna start censoring me..."

please stop. i'm crying and laughing again.

just to close on a few of my thoughts, what i noticed in Ann's laughter-eliciting post is that there was a subtle movement from the public to the personal in the last paragraph. so there's a disjunct. comedy is dependent upon that disjunct. there's a brief pause b/w reading/hearing/seeing and understanding: the "aha" moment. well done.

(EDIT: of course, there is the fact that people usually don't talk about that part of their private lives in a public forum. that is also another important component of comedy.)

(sorry, this time, i initiated the thread hijack.)

back on track.

Tara wrote: "Curiosity might explain the first best-seller but when the second and third book in a series is pre-selling in the millions months before it comes out there is something else going on for sure. In addition many books are propelled into super stardom only after internet chatter turns into buzz which turns into anticipation which turns into huge success. There are readers who will give a book a try based on popularity..."

this is something that i've been thinking about for the past several weeks. to have a blockbuster, you have to reach millions of readers, many of whom are not your target audience. so, it's really a popularity contest after a certain point and that's where the big marketing money kicks in. or maybe not. hugh howey refused 7-figure offers:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142...

so, perhaps, there are at least 2 ways to go about making a blockbuster book.

(this is part of my ebook business case studies research)

thoughts?

Ooh! Scrambles off to read Alex's post...

This thread is way juicier than the thread title would lead one to believe. Perhaps the title itself is the "paper bag". Well played :)

@Miss Tara: Ooooh. Your wrists have such an...impressive...ROM *winks**writes a short about your pliable wrists**grins*

@Mr Alex: re "of course, there is the fact that people usually don't talk about that part of their private lives in a public forum

Heh. Yeah. I seem to be lacking an embarrassment gene *shrugs* Both a gift and a curse, tbh *more shrugs*

@Miss Marie: Did you see? Did you see? I resisted the urge to revise Mr Alex's post. It was soooo hard...

@The long-lost OP before it was covered with a paper bag under which madness ensued:

I dig Mr Howey's style. That's similar to what I personally envision. And, no, I'm not full of myself. Nor do I think I'm this incredible writer who's head and shoulders above everyone else. Quite the opposite, actually. I see a great deal of talent on a daily basis, which humbles me beyond belief. Buuuuut...

I believe you must profess success in order to achieve it. Pretty difficult to succeed while professing failure, ya know?

*happily puts on rose-colored glasses again**fist bumps Hugh Howey*

All jokes aside, I think there's a different respect and even audience to be earned for displaying that type of grit. And balls, for that matter. My 2 cents.

Hugs,
Ann

Grit and balls. Sounds like an English pub.

Alex
That article gave me all the chills!

Marie
I know right! You should have been here last week for the pimp edition.

Annie
You're a boss. That is all.

Nik
You make all of this insanity possible. Cheers comrade.

Alex G wrote: "a pro futbol striker from arsenal on the underground ..."

That would be an exceptionally modest footballer -:)

Annie wrote: "Nooo! *frowns at artisANAL biscotti* That's a hard limit!!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist hahaha!! Mr Nik, you may wanna start censoring me..."

Why, for Anal? I'd rather amplify, especially if the guys here are game -:)
I'm rather indifferent to BDSM, but have nothing against exhibitionism -:)

Tara wrote: "Nik
You make all of this insanity possible. Cheers comrade. ..."

By omission. Instead of making it possible, I'd rather participate -:)
I can see now that we have here a very dangerous crowd that can turn any innocent thread into a marginally readable. I'm kinda wary to fall asleep even after opening a totally innocent 'Children fiction' thread -:)
9-10 new members that joined us today might come out with a strange impression...

Nik wrote: "I can see now that we have here a very dangerous crowd that can turn any innocent thread into a marginally readable. I'm kinda wary to fall asleep even after opening a totally innocent 'Children fiction' thread -:)
9-10 new members that joined us today might come out with a strange impression..."

true. we want this group to be seen open with diverse threads--not clique-ish.

Tara wrote: "Alex
That article gave me all the chills!"

i'm putting together a spreadsheet. right now i have Wool, Fifty Shades of Grey, and The Martian.

Wool was first published in 2011 and by 2013 had "sold more than half a million copies... [and] raked in more than a million dollars in royalties..."

conservatively, that means 500k/36 = 13,888 copies/mo = 462/day.

assuming the product had good quality and timing was good b/c ebooks was just starting to get going, has anyone else heard what howey did? like advertising and such?

Don't forget Evan Pickering!

Alex G wrote: "random shizz...conservatively, that means 500k/36 = 13,888 copies/mo = 462/day."

*drools on self*

Nah, don't know any intel but just read this:

http://www.hughhowey.com/my-advice-to...

Hugs,
Ann

Tara wrote: "Don't forget Evan Pickering!"

you mean Hood? he just self-published in Jan 2016 and it's at #4,569 for paid ebooks in the kindle category. that sounds like a good candidate for a case study. i think that i'm going to shoot for 10 min and 30 max examples.

if you see any marketing activity (sales, ads, interviews) that would be good to know.

@Mr Alex: Where do you find that ranking? I only found this:

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #359,249 in Books
#3187 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Post-Apocalyptic

(Amazon.com)

EDIT: I'm an idiot!! Totally didn't click on Kindle Edition *headdesk*

#4,569 Paid in Kindle Store
#24 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Metaphysical & Visionary
#67 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Dystopian
#97 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Post-Apocalyptic

Yeeeeeah... *blushes* ...those be some pretty sweet rankings.

Annie wrote: "@Mr Alex: Where do you find that ranking? I only found this:

Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #359,249 in Books
#3187 in Books > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Science Fiction > Post-Apocalyptic

(Amazon.com)"

if you click on the book, then you scroll down and you'll see the ranking.

Annie wrote: "Alex G wrote: "random shizz...conservatively, that means 500k/36 = 13,888 copies/mo = 462/day."

*drools on self*

Nah, don't know any intel but just read this:

http://www.hughhowey.com/my-advice-..."

yes, i've read some of it in his wattpad (?) book and yes it's sound advice. but i'm interested in more details and not hearing it from the writer. hearing it from the writer is like these "get rich quick" books (Rich Dad, Poor Dad comes to mind). many times they don't know what they did and, well, my inner cynic says that they aren't going to tell you everything. my pragmatic self says that those market conditions that were in place when that book became a bestseller might not occur again for a long time.

EDIT: I'm also interested in finding out how much writing do you actually have to do? when will you see the end of the tunnel?

@Mr Alex: Weeeeell, since poor ole Kiyosaki's not here to defend himself *sad face* I'm gonna go ahead and do it for him...

Sorry but he doesn't talk about "get rich quick" at all. In fact, he talks about the exact opposite:

Acquisition of assets over the long-haul & changing your financial...um...lifestyle/choice/whatevs (income and expenses, okay? haha)

And reinvesting, of course. Duh, Ann!

Annie wrote: "@Mr Alex: Weeeeell, since poor ole Kiyosaki's not here to defend himself *sad face* I'm gonna go ahead and do it for him...

Sorry but he doesn't talk about "get rich quick" at all. In fact, he tal..."

i stand corrected. (that should teach me to comment about things that i haven't read.) thx!

OMG!!! I'm totally like book police today, eh? Geez, not cool at all...

*begs forgiveness*

My apologies, guys! For real. Ugh. Yeah, sorry!!

Hugs,
Ann

No, it's great! I'd rather be corrected on something that I'm wrong about and then sound stupid IRL.

@Mr Alex: Awww! You're too kind!!

Well, the respectful thing to do if I felt soooo strongly about it (totally didn't, just gabby as usual haha) would've been to send a private message. Public correction is some pretty high-ranking douchebaggery in my books... *self-flagellates*

Instead, I'll just PM you the long list of issues I've complied. Totally kidding!!

Hugs,
Ann

Annie wrote: "Of course, I'd never actually wanna be abducted and forced into sex slavery but I sure don't mind reading about it. Yeah, yeah......"

This is the point of fiction in general - to imagine ourselves in worlds and scenarios we wouldn't necessarily want to live in IRL. People read horror because they like to imagine themselves taking on the psycho killer, but they wouldn't want to find themselves up against such a monster in real life. People read zombie and post apocalyptic books because they enjoy the idea of struggling to survive in the face against tragedy, but they don't exactly want to find themselves in a world where their government has actually collapsed and anarchy reigns. A lot of fiction sees people struggling and overcoming those struggles, but in reality we want our lives as simple and trouble-free as possible. And fiction allows us to explore the what-ifs in our own head without having to experience them ourselves. At the end of the day, the book goes down and we're "safe" in our homes again.

All,
Just to connect up some diverse comments, it always struck me that many of Rohling's characters are basically asexual if we don't go beyond grade school infatuations. Obviously the wizards and mages procreate (even Harry at the very end)--otherwise the distinction between muggles and purebloods wouldn't be interesting.
(Yeah, I read them, but often skipped the long, boring, verbose descriptions. Rohling didn't seem to want to leave anything to the reader's imagination, an attitude which hurts young readers.)
J.J.'s last comment is a propos. I'm an avid reader first, writer second. That's why storytelling's iffy future is depressing: In spite of Rohling, there are fewer and fewer readers as younger generations turn to more visual and short, compressed forms of entertainment. People here might think that GR proves there are a lot of readers still, but I can see definite demographic trends away from reading, Rohling-like blips aside.
r/Steve

I very much agree.

Speaking of readers' trends, I'm seeing an alarming increase in the question of how to portray text messages in a story. It's one thing to incorporate new technology into modern works - it wouldn't be too realistic after all if a story was set in today's time and no one was texting. However I get the impression that writers are trying to tell their stories strictly though "text messages," as some have relied maybe a little too heavily on dialog in the past - I doubt we're there now, but I get the impression that's where things are headed.

J.J.,
It's the same problem with "old-fashioned" email or "prehistoric" snail-mail. However, a terse text from boss-spy to her underling like "THX TG TCBY T+" might need a translation as well, because one could lose some readers. Maybe the Twitter-sphere can handle an entire story written in blocks of acronyms like these in 140-character chunks, but I doubt it.
That said, the Goldilocks Principle applies to dialog AND messages and other aspects (plot, flashbacks, narrative or world-building, settings, denouement): Not too much, not too little, but just right. The latter implies balance as well should be maintained. A novel completely dedicated to developing a character? Not my cup o' tea!
r/Steve