The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

I am only a quarter of the way through this, but it might just be the best of the lot - very moving, and I always love books that discuss music.

Good to see this getting more recognition - it has made it through to the shortlist of the Giller Prize as well http://www.scotiabankgillerprize.ca/.

I may be in the minority, but I am nearly three quarters of the way through and having no problems at all with remembering who was who, apart from a couple of very minor characters. I think the introduction is deliberately a little confusing to reflect the narrator's initial disorientation on meeting Ai-Ming, her unfamiliarity with Chinese writing and hearing many of the stories for the first time.

Yes, it could have been edited a little but the whole is very powerful and many of the details are fascinating, particularly the discussion of Chinese spelling.

So far I am not sure part 0 quite matches part 1 for sheer compulsiveness but I still think this may be the best and most memorable book on the shortlist.

As Paul says it is nice, if no surprise, to see it on the Giller shortlist.

It read like a long essay to me rather than fiction. So yes, some of it is interesting, but it was not enjoyable to me as fiction. The author had a lot of points to make and they didn't always lend themselves to cohesion. The discussion of Chinese spelling is a good example.

I much prefer Julian Barnes' latest offering, a fictionalised account of Shostakovich's experiences in The Noise of Time. I know Trevor did not like The Noise of Time but I wonder if it has risen in his estimation at all since reading Thien's offering on similar themes.

I've tried reading this twice - always delighted to find my first impressions way off. Sadly, I can only echo Ang's comment, which is spot on re: my experience.

Ang, and possibly Lee: I’ve read both DNSWHN and The Noise of Time, and I admired both. I would have been pleased if The Noise of Time had been included in the Booker longlist and the shortlist as well, and I think that it would been a worthy contender as winner. But I may not understand your comparison of DNSWHN and The Noise of Time, and I don’t mean to be contentious here. Both DNSWHN and The Noise of Time grapple with 20th century history, music and its place in politics, and moral failure of musicians in the face of political oppression. But The Noise of Time seemed a finely wrought exploration of a single character, while DNSWHN seemed a more sweeping exploration of political oppression and its effects on individuals. Am I missing something here, or am I just trying to read too much into your comments?

I made no comparison between the two - although I'm a fan of neither.

I expect to finish the book later tonight, but I've just come across a factual howler - at the end of part 0 chapter 3 she talks about the Busoni versions of Bach and claims "Three hundred years separate the births of Bach and Busoni" - since J.S. Bach was born in 1685 I knew that this could not be true - it turns out that Busoni was born in 1866 so the actual figure is at most 181 years. Possibly an honest mistake, but it does make you question what else you can trust.

Hugh: be interested to see what Doug makes of this...

Ang wrote: "I know Trevor did not like The Noise of Time but I wonder if it has risen in his estimation at all since reading Thien's offering on similar themes. "

Sadly, no. I hadn't put the two together in my mind, but my problem with Barnes this time was similar to my problem with his last book: I keep feeling like he's showing off and talking down. And I didn't feel that at all with Thien's work. In fact, quite the opposite, and your description of it as an essay works for me. I experienced no distaste for her or it, though, and I did with Barnes (he was once a favorite, so maybe disappointment at losing a friend is amplifying my negative response).

I have just finished, and on balance, although I felt the final section lost its way a little, the scope and ambition of the story, and the memorability of the characters and events mean that for me it still just about gets my vote as the best of the shortlist, with Hot Milk a very close second.

I had always thought the title a little clunky. See in the Guardian today, the author explains it is part of the translation/language theme running through the novel.

"The games start with the title of the novel which is, Thien explains, the English transliteration of a line from the anthem of the Communist party of China, which was translated via Russian from the French socialist anthem “The Internationale”."

I'm halfway on this one and I am really liking it. I don't even need to finish it to know it's my pick to win. It's also really making me want to learn to read and write Chinese!

I am in the 'loved it' camp on this one. My review is at http://shinynewbooks.co.uk/fiction-is...

Karen wrote: "I am in the 'loved it' camp on this one. My review is at http://shinynewbooks.co.uk/fiction-is..."

Thanks - nice to see some positive reviews after a thread that started with some very negative comments.

There's a remarkable degree of consensus regarding "Do Not Say We Have Nothing" if the opinions of Goodreaders posting a review are a reliable yardstick.
The main dissenters (those who rate the book at one star, and who really don't like it) are, interestingly, heavily represented on the Mookse Booker Prize discussion forum.

DNSWHN is a popular read, despite the book's length, despite the complicated non linear narrative, and despite the need for the reader to work hard understanding the relationship of characters to one another.
I liked it first time around, and having completed a re-read its a book which benefits from prior knowledge of the story and its outcome.

It needs to be read, and digested, slowly. Time spent researching many of the events referenced adds to the enjoyment of Thien's story.
I placed DNSWHN top of the thirteen Booker nominees this year and after reflection its the only one which I feel has the depth to make it more than just a quick weekend read that's then forgotten.
I felt that this years Booker winner would be a choice between DNSWHN and His Bloody Project. DNSWHN is my pick.
I didn't enjoy Hot Milk. Given the favour it finds on this forum and its unbroken run as the Bookmakers short odds favourite to win, I will now set about a second read in the hope that I can find some greater enjoyment this time around.

I think this was the very first books from the long-list I picked up and only one of a few books this year I set aside, as with His Bloody Project I find myself out of step with public opinion but I was quite heartened to read this review
I think the line about "acute precision" and "written through a lyrical, nostalgic fog" pretty much matches my own feelings.
This kind of makes me sound like I have it in for every shortlisted book this year - but this is not usually the case ! ...oh well.

I am in the camp of "It's not terrible but not really good either." There are a few beautifully written observations, and it is quite informative about life in China during the period described. I also appreciated that in its talk of music, it does not alienate readers like me who are not too familiar with the interpretation of classical music. I also enjoyed her description of Chinese language and some distinctions in meaning making.
But it is too little for too much effort. I am going to have to agree with Lascosas that the main trouble with it is a problem of voice. For me, this was a greater problem than the lack of editing (although the last third of the novel was excruciatingly slow and should have been cut substantially). Others have mentioned that the author should have included a cast of characters at the beginning. This was a bit surprising to me at first as there are hardly that many characters, but since the author does not invest the time in giving each a character a distinct voice, characters were difficult to distinguish one from the other especially the Ai Ling/Zhuli; Sparrow/Jiang Kai; the two crotchety old ladies (forgot their names). Even though Sparrow was self-effacing and gentle while Jiang Kai was hungry, ambitious and strategic, their internal monologue was identical.
As someone who is not from the Western world, I am always aware of how non-Western characters sound in Western literature: overly formal, stilted, always talking in proverbs or grand poetic statements, as well as a lack of humour and playfulness. I know this is not an easy issue to resolve: on the one hand, characters' talk seems unreal; on the other, a more literal, faithful translation of speech might alienate a reader who is not from that culture and who might not understand the cultural references. I might be accused of being unfair to the author, but the voice of her characters got on my nerves [I enjoyed the older characters though- Sparrow's parents].
Some other issues:
- While the author spends a lot of time on what was happening on the Chinese side, I felt she should have devoted more time to the Canadian side of the family. That bit of the novel felt hurriedly done, and the novel can hardly be characterized as the tale of two families. The Canadian Jiang Kai was very different from the one who left China; I would have liked to know more what had happened to him in the interim.
- I am wondering if the device of the Book of Records was necessary; I understood that it suggested a circularity to the events in China, was instrumental in getting Swirl and her husband reunited and that the narrator borrows its strategy to reach out to Ai Ming, but would its removal have hurt so much? It would have have shed some extra weight off the book. Ai Ming's disappearance also felt a bit unnecessary.
- I assume that it was Ai Ming that was narrating the events in China, but how would she have access to the subjectivity of all the other characters and relay their internal monologues?
- Before I had read the first line of the novel, I knew it would conform to the "Bad Old Repressive China" narrative. I don't want to diminish the hardships of people who lived through some difficult events, but often I feel that authors fall prey to certain narrative orthodoxies when writing about certain countries/events/ topics. I am Lebanese and as someone who was fascinated by the Civil War [as I hadn't lived it] and had read most novels about the War, even I finally got to the point where I said to myself, 'Not another novel about the civil war!' [while reading DeNiro's Game incidentally- more a reflection of my own fatigue than the quality of the book]. It has less to do with writing about the event but with writing about it in what seems to be the same way.

Susanne wrote: "I am in the camp of "It's not terrible but not really good either." There are a few beautifully written observations, and it is quite informative about life in China during the period described. I ..."

That is an excellent and thorough critique.

Trudie wrote: "Susanne wrote: "I am in the camp of "It's not terrible but not really good either." There are a few beautifully written observations, and it is quite informative about life in China during the peri..."
You are very kind Trudie, and I really enjoyed reading the review you shared a link to.

i appreciate the thoroughness of your review though I enjoyed this book and thought it was much better constructed than you felt it to be. The Canadian side was indeed rather weaker than the Chinese part but the latter never felt like it was being dragged out necessarily. The Book of Records I saw as much more than a narrative device to reunite characters - it was a key theme of how we need to record history to avoid its loss.

"Do Not Say We Have Nothing" is the winner of the Canadian Scotiabank Giller Prize 2016 announced November 7, 2016:
http://www.scotiabankgillerprize.ca/m...