Our Shared Shelf discussion

So is sex that is owed, or something else entirely?


The Modern Mumma's 'quickie' is nothing to feel good about
BY MEGHAN MURPHY | AUGUST 4, 2016

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/femin...

Sex is never something that is owed, I'll say that much. I think it's okay to be flirty and maybe a wee bit touchy if you want to initiate sex with someone you're in a relationship with and/or have had sex with before and if they should say no it's okay to ask why, but the way this husband went about getting consent from his partner was blatantly immature and I sure hope he at least stops doing it. As for the "sausage" part, while it's no less immature I do have to admit I can't think of a flirty way to say "Do you want to give me a blowjob" in any mundane scenario. As such, I get why people would want to phrase it differently, but, again, the "sausage" analogy is stupid.

Be all that as it may, I'm not fond of the way Murphy talks here either; it comes off to me as a bit chastising and condescending. If you feel bad for a partner for whatever reason (even if it has nothing to do with you) it's not Stockholm syndrome to (let them) initiate sex to make them feel better, despite you being not as much in the mood. Not saying you should always do that, just saying you shouldn't necessarily feel bad about it.

I should add that if you do have sex for your partner's sake, I think you should always put yourself in a physically more dominant position (for example: on top) so that you get to set the tone during the sex and your partner can't stop you from opting out, whether it be out of something particular your partner wants to do that you don't, or out of the sex entirely. You are, after all, doing them a favour by having sex in the first place, so it's only fair you get to be in charge during the act. This, provided you yourself respect their consent as well, of course. Otherwise, you'd be entering abuser-territory.

Honestly, she should file for divorce or hire a hitman on her "husband" - the guy's asking for it.

Gerd wrote: "Honestly, she should file for divorce or hire a hitman on her "husband" - the guy's asking for it."

Well, if he's not wearing a bullet-proof vest, he's practically asking for a hitman to shoot him, right? :p

Oh man, Tim. One day you have me typing fervently to you, because you sound pissed off and cynical, the next you have me barking of laughter and at a loss how to respond. You crack me up.

Not my best joke, I'd say. I was thinking of saying "full set of knight's armour" instead, but then I realised knight's armour does nothing against bullets except make your corpse look really cool. Guess that's why no one ever brings a gun to a larp fight.

Ha, actually I was referring to the first comment of yours. Your manner of responding was no-fuss, let's-talkish.

Ooooh well now you've got me all blushing ^_^ except I don't know if it's because I'm flattered, or embarrassed that I didn't get that straightaway :d

Tim wrote: "Ooooh well now you've got me all blushing ^_^ except I don't know if it's because I'm flattered, or embarrassed that I didn't get that straightaway :d"

The sausage portion had me barking of laughter. And then your trouble finding a flirty way to ask for a blowjob. You know, sometimes honesty is the hottest thing a person can give someone else, and if they are mature enough they can handle that request, as long as it isn't crude or putting pressure in any way. It is the hounding as per OP that is appalling, but had he asked nicely, chances are his wife would have actually become turned on without meaning to.

I don't know. Usually when you make a sexual advance, your main leverage is that your partner will enjoy it as well. So, when a guy says "Can I have a blowjob?" it really sounds like he's asking you to do him a favour. I know people enjoy both being on the giving end of oral sex as well as receiving it and frankly, I wouldn't mind if there were more people who did, but just the way it's phrased... "*you* give *me*" it gives me the idea that the pleasure of the person being asked doesn't really matter, whereas the vocabulary we use to describe giving oral sex to a woman, it tends to sound at least somewhat more pleasant for the person doing it, but I don't want to be a naughty boy and go into too much detail on that, since we're already digressing a bit :D

...actually, I will for just a sec: "Eating (someone) out" sounds a lot more inviting than "giving a blowjob". Sorry y'all, it had to be said!

Well if someone wants something done, like a blowjob and they (not saying "he" because there are people with penises who do not identify as a man) know the other person they are requesting this of, they can add on something they are willing to do in return that they know the other person likes and enjoys and is relaxing or sexually gratifying in a similar way.

Like... "Hey? Can I have a blowjob? I'll be happy to eat you out in return! :3 It's fine if you say no, I just figured to ask. :) " Or "Hey? Can I have a blowjob? I know your shoulders have been hurting so I'd like to give you a nice massage in return, as long as you'd like! <3 It's fine if you say no, I just figured to ask. :) "

That way instead of it being asking it, or accidentally demanding with no give in return, this instead becomes reciprocal. Both sides get something they want. Something that'll relax them nicely and make them feel good and that they really enjoy. ALSO! If the asker offers something they are already amenable to doing and open to doing, and have already tailored it to what they know their partner already appreciates and enjoys, this shows a lot of care, thought, and consideration.

Finally, the ending of "it's fine if you say no/are not in the mood for it, I just figured to ask. :) " means that you remove any pressure that may have been accidentally created on the other person towards fulfilling the exchange if they are not wanting to do so. Also, if the partner suggests something they'd like instead of what you offered, you can likewise say yes or no depending on how willing and open and comfortable you are with doing this. If both people approach it as a reciprocity, with the intent of a nice equal exchange of things both people greatly enjoy and are relaxed by, that both people are WILLING and CONSENTING and WANTING to give in return, then it becomes a nice healthy and loving exchange.

If you're able to modify it to something that both people are fine with, comfortable with, and would be okay with giving (even better if they like or enjoy giving that genuinely, not just in receiving it, like a backrub) and respect both people's boundaries in the process, then I think you'd be able to side-step a lot of the issues that make such a request for a blowjob in this culture extremely problematic in many levels. The biggest problems being - having the EXPECTATION of getting blowjobs without having to give anything in return for your partner's pleasure. That is the biggest problem to me in this culture. If you offer something back in equal pleasure and relaxation for the other person, something they have already indicated they enjoy and like, then that shows more care for them getting something out of the deal as well.

Anyways just my thoughts on the matter. :)

Tim and Indigo, I'm noticing how I'm writing this in the light of an established relationship of some kind, because I wouldn't be comfortable asking a "stranger" for something that intimate. But dating could qualify depending on the depth of the connection of course.

And yes, Indigo is right on the penis on a "he" point. For clarity, the OP is about a relationship between a cis man and cis woman, so if I've said he earlier that's the reason.

Anyway, I don't think sex should be something we count somehow, but if it's constantly uneven and you feel like you're the one giving blowjobs without ever getting anything in return, maybe there's room for improvement still.

A silly example would be headaches, which I have from time to time, but the guys I've been with haven't suffered from them, so either I'd give a massage of neck and shoulders when I'm not in pain, or I'd make them feel appreciated in other ways. This could translate to a situation where one of the parties don't appreciate oral sex at all on their own behalf, but don't mind giving such to their partner.

Tim, if you think nice cis guys might find it awkward to ask their woman for it, a blowjob is a rather thankful way of starting to talk in more depth about sex in general, because people with a penis happen to be fortunate in that their arousal is rather obvious (or unfortunate in other situations). And if the relationship is respectful and consensual to begin with, usually seeing one's partner hot and bothered stirs at least something within oneself in return.

That's what should be held onto, I think, but if the partner, like the wife in the OP link, constantly says no, maybe the right way forward isn't to wave one's sausage but to start digging deeper into her emotional life to show support.

Indigo discussed expectations and while I definitely agree with all of it, I want to add that in a particular moment I personally don't feel everything has to be reciprocated, maybe only in the beginning until a couple starts knowing each other better and seeing what makes the other tick and when. But once a rhythm has been found in everyday life, I'd be okay with focus being on only one in one moment, and the other some later day. So much can be conveyed with body language (closeness afterwards) and favours (doing stuff without having been asked to) that asking for that coveted blowjob might turn into something quite fun for both.

(I still haven't found an equal term for what happens around a clitoris, apologies for that, because I think the whole eating thing sounds too graphic for me, even though that's basically what is happening, heh, but I'm definitely writing with also those body parts in mind. Or maybe it's because blowjob has been talked about forever already, it seems, and hence is a "normal" part of vocabulary today?)

Indigo wrote: "Like... "Hey? Can I have a blowjob? I'll be happy to eat you out in return! :3 It's fine if you say no, I just figured to ask. :) " Or "Hey? Can I have a blowjob? I know your shoulders have been hurting so I'd like to give you a nice massage in return, as long as you'd like! <3 It's fine if you say no, I just figured to ask. :) " ,..."

I guess that _would_ be acceptable if the other person is fully aware that "I don't feel like giving you a blowjob, but would take the offer at a massage..." is a completely valid answer to that request - otherwise it still sounds like applying pressure.


Aglaea wrote: "(I still haven't found an equal term for what happens around a clitoris, apologies for that)..."

Just say cunnilingus (not sure if that is the term I looking for - it's not actually as if I had a need for that vocabulary)

You're right Indigo. I was being a little unfair to non-cis men, but that's mainly because I have this (maybe kind of prejudiced?) presumption that trans people are a lot more tactful in their way of asking consent. All the aforementioned issues I had with the story and the vocabulary were all things that I felt only cis men are stupid enough to do; hence why I didn't feel the need for gender neutral language. Anyway, the way you described it was indeed a very good way of gaining consent and don't get me wrong, it's not that I never ask for vocal consent, but I was mostly referring to being flirtatious. I don't know what it is, but ever since I learned the true meaning of consent, the simple concept of flirtation has become a lot more complicated to me. For ages, I've seen scenes in media and instances in real life where people were flirtatious in such a way that they did not need to ask for consent.

To me, that actually should mean you're doing something right, right? Now, again, I should clarify:

1) asking for consent remains the most decent thing to do and I understand why it'd even be a turn-on to many people especially women, which I think is at least partially due to the fact that women often have to worry more about having their consent breached.

2) I myself have never done anything with someone before a) asking them if they would object b) they asked me if I would object or c) they give me a gentle (but nonetheless clear) push in the direction of what they want me to do and I don't think it's okay to abruptly do something like, say, anal, without asking for consent.

However, wouldn't it be nice if we could communicate the asking and giving of consent in more subtle ways than saying it outright? That was where part of my grievance with the phrase "Can I have a blowjob?" came from. I don't know if it's just me, but the people I've met who are certainly not feminists still seem to have ease getting consent (and to be getting more of it) whilst seeming much less awkward about getting it than me. Of course, I'm not saying "Passion and sexuality are in danger becuz mah experienz! READ 1984!!!11101" but I just feel like adopting feminist views, in my personal case, seems to have made me a bit more awkward in that particular regard. Maybe I'm wrong though, and it's just me.

Also, sorry for kind of derailing the topic though hahah

Gerd wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "(I still haven't found an equal term for what happens around a clitoris, apologies for that)..."

Just say cunnilingus (not sure if that is the term I looking for - it's not actually as if I had a need for that vocabulary) "

Oh, I know. I just meant that I haven't yet found a suitable expression similar to blowjob, but concerning the clitoris and surrounding area. I suppose oral sex would fit, but then again blowjob is so down to earth that it would be nice to have something similar for cunnilingus, which sounds horribly clinical.


Tim, I don't think you're derailing at all. Your concern regarding consent is truly touching to read. My point earlier was that some things can be a bit difficult to communicate to a new partner, so frank and honest might be better, but once you get to know each other the more subtle ways could also work smoothly. For the love of god, stay away from the pushing her head down along your torso though... ;) Otherwise you'll sound like sausage guy. If you're in real life as feministy as you're here, I'm sure you'll end up with someone whose ideals are similar, which means you should be able to trust her word as well as capabilities to communicate her own needs well in the situation.

Aglaea wrote: "blowjob is so down to earth that it would be nice to have something similar for cunnilingus, which sounds horribly clinical..."

Dunno, I think "blowjob" sounds not very terrific either, the other is at least latin - makes one sound intellectual when talking dirty. :D

Edit to add:
I guess this would actually be something to ask in a lesbian forum, they are certainly bound to have a larger vocabulary for it.

Right you are Gerd, especially in the edit. Now I just find myself really curious about what wonderous vocabulary gymnastic stunts might be found in the lesbian oral sex slang database lol

Trust me, Aglaea, after reading "This is All: the Pillow Book of Cordelia Kenn" (and by the gods! if I could just get through one season without saying how much I hate that book...) I know exactly what NOT to do when it comes to getting head.

Hey! That might just be a better way to phrase oral sex, right? "Getting/Giving head". It still uses the "give" verb but it's gender neutral if nothing else (or, rather, genital neutral) so it's something. Too bad there isn't a Flemish equivalent though :d

EDIT to Aglaea: I find it a bit strange that you explicitly say "to a new partner" because in the case of Jack The Sausage Ripper, the two weren't new partners; they were married. So, while I do get your general point, I don't really see how it applies in his particular case.

Tim wrote: "Sex is never something that is owed.."

Agreed. Yet there is a balancing act to be maintained in any long term relationship. If I pull out all the romantic stops and my partner isn't in the mood, it is impossible not to feel disappointed.

I've been married for a while now, and there have been times when both of us have consented primarily for the sake of the other's arousal. Am I falling into Murphy's alleged rape culture for thinking it is the way of things that my wife consents for me more often than I consent for her?

In either case, it is natural for the less aroused party to view the other's advances as clumsy. Sex is some pretty deep programming. Arousal tends to dull tact. (And, as is demonstrated by the article, in many Y chromosomed cases it dumbs down sophisticated humor as well.)

edit: what did you hate most about This is All: The Pillow Book of Cordelia Kenn? Your vitriol motivated me to look it up. Is this really an eight hundred and some odd page investment that I don't want to make?

S. K. wrote: "Tim wrote: "Sex is never something that is owed.."

Agreed. Yet there is a balancing act to be maintained in any long term relationship. If I pull out all the romantic stops and my partner isn't in..."

I wouldn't classify you the way Murphy might, not necessarily at least. However, if you are aware that she consents more for you than you do for her, then I think you should be a little more willing to withhold your urges and first ask yourself when the last time was you did the same for her. Hell, keep count on a blackboard if you really have to. Also, I take it you've also read the bit where I suggested you let your partner set the tone if they consent for you? If you have, then I do recommend you start doing that as well. I can't guarantee any reaction from your spouse, but it's the most decent thing to do.

As for the book. I didn't really want to talk about it because, fair play, people should sometimes still see for themselves even if I myself have already told them it's bad. Anyway, I'll just say the part I was referring to.

SPOILER WARNING AND AT THE SAME TIME CONTENT WARNING (mentions and descriptions of (borderline) rape and emotional abuse) FOR EVERYTHING FROM HERE ON

The story revolves around a teenage girl's and her first boyfriend. At the beginning she's 15 but by this time in the book she's 17. After a night of having sex with her boyfriend (who is 18 by this time), she wakes up at the sigh of him already awake sitting up. Without saying a word (not so much as a good morning), he randomly brings his willy towards her and asks her to take it in her mouth. He doesn't ask if she *wants* to do it; he asks her to do it. As the girl had never done it before she didn't really know what to say or do straightaway, so the guy puts his hand on her head, says "please" in a very much begging way (as if he needs it) and if I recall correctly, he was already pushing (not necessarily hard, but still) her head towards his choad and after a few seconds the girl obliges. the narrator (the protagonist herself) says she liked it, but only *after* she describes felating him and him consequently busting his nut.

In short what happens is: she's just woken up and her fella before even saying so much as good morning asks her to do something (he knows) she has never done before and he only asks her to do it once he's already trying to put himself in the position, followed by a desparate please. To me, that counts as being emotionally coercive and it's right on the borderline with *telling* her to do it. Now this one scene alone doesn't do the characters justice, but all the events that occur before and after this scene -which are large in number yet often minute so forgive me for not listing them- always gave me the idea that the protagonist really objectified herself towards him and he certainly did not seem worried about how religiously she adores him. Seriously, the amount of times she emphasises her adoration had already become annoying before page 200 and after that it went from worrying to just nauseating. As for the guy himself, I couldn't help but dislike him. There was realy nothing interesting to him yet the main character goes apeshit over how great he is, but it never becomes apparent in his actions. I can't count how many times the words "show, don't tell" echoed in my head as I read. In fact, a lot of the small things he does that caught my attention gave me the feeling he has some sociopathic tendenceies. When she reveals to him she wants him to be her first, she points out he has already had sex.

This is where their romantic relationship begins, but the guy only tells her months later, shortly before they first have sex, that it was to be his first time as well. I can't help but wonder what kind of guy would avoid saying this when a girl he likes is pouring her heart out to him and then procedes to hide it for another number of months. At another point in the story (at this point the two have been together for I think a year or so; in any case it's after they've started having sex), the guy had a late night show with his band which got cancelled. His reaction was to go to drive to his girlfriend's house late at night, started yelling angrily and the protagonist obviously tells him she can't do anything about it and eventually she brings up the fact that he's never told her he loved her (again, this is after they've had sex and her love for him is at an all-time high) and basically after she somewhat demands him to say it, he doesn't and goes away, leaving the girl crying. Again, short version: his show gets cancelled, he takes it out on his girlfriend and leaves her feeling like crap. This is essentially the worst he treats her in the whole book. Yet, at not one single point does he apologise for it. Now, he never physically hurts her in any way, but I just can't help that emotionally their relationship is borderline abusive. Again, you really have to read the book for yourself to be able to get the whole picture, because I just don't have the memory or the desire to list all the bollocks that happens in it and how little this guy seems to understand or care about emotions. It gets especially bad by the ending, but I'm pretty burnt up about it now.

So, S.K. if you really want me to tell you about that as well, I understand, because reading it could very well mean choosing torture for yourself, but that's all I want to say about it right now. I recommend looking for it in libraries if you're going to read it, so you don't have to keep it or pay for it.

Tim wrote: "Right you are Gerd, especially in the edit. Now I just find myself really curious about what wonderous vocabulary gymnastic stunts might be found in the lesbian oral sex slang database lol

Trust m..."

I must say there's no German equivalent either, or at least I don't know of any. To simply translate that phrase woud sound stupid, so one should come up with another term:)

This article makes me nauseous. The sad thing is that the commenters didn't realize that they had internalized rape culture already.
This world makes me sick!