World, Writing, Wealth discussion

Seeing all the time 'clean' in description of romance, thriller, whatever, I assume there is a lot of dirt, so some authors probably want to distinguish their work.
As all my bets are in Q&D, it would be interesting to know what people prefer, hoping that our community is representative for bigger ones.
So how do you like your books: medium rare, well done ....err... sorry forgot: Quick and dirty or Slow and clean?

I'm not a fan of erotica, not because I'm prudish but I find that some writers just can't write it very well and it reads like a biology textbook. I do remember reading one of Carl Ruiz Zafon's books and he did write an erotic scene beautifully, that was an example of how well it can be done.

I like historical fiction and to provide a contrast; my favourite author CJ Sansom has no sex scenes in his books, but I don't feel that they're needed. I'm reading it for the thriller/mystery plot and his evocative Tudor setting. After discovering Sansom I then read Rory Clements' first book and I felt that the (biology textbook) sex scenes were superfluous and added very little. It nearly put me off buying his second, but I'm glad I persevered because his writing did get better.

Ah, I see now, is 'quick and dirty' associated with erotica mostly? For in business context it has a different meaning. I meant it more like snappy and gritty then with profanity and stuff, as opposed to detailed scene building and refined language

Nik wrote: "Ah, I see now, is 'quick and dirty' associated with erotica mostly? For in business context it has a different meaning. I meant it more like snappy and gritty then with profanity and stuff, as oppo..."

I think so Nik - when browsing freebie titles I often see 'clean romance' so I take it that it means no smut, to use an old phrase!

It depends on the story and how it's done. I didn't think of erotica in conjunction with the title (maybe because it's not even something I consider reading at all).

In terms of grit and violence, if it fits the story and is not a substitute for a story, then that might be okay - but the writing must be really good. Or if it is a club read and voted as a group read I might read something I would not ordinarily. If something is brilliantly written, but all dark, no I won't read it, even if it's so-called 'clean.' Ultimately though, clean is my preference.

And how do you like your books?

I figured it might have meant a mix, some sex and swearing. But if you are going to use a phrase like that, people can hardly be blamed for thinking – sex.

I read pretty much most things, although twee romance and cozy mystery are not my choice and I try to avoid those.

So to use your other descriptions, yes to snappy, gritty, swearing, but also yes to refined scene-building and language.

I do find endless whingeing about non-marital sex, four-letter words, and only wanting happy little feel-good stories a bit painful. Life isn't like that, but each to our own.

Roughseasinthemed wrote: "So to use your other descriptions, yes to snappy, gritty, swearing, but also yes to refined scene-building and language.

...but each to our own. "

For sure.
The growing use of 'clean' in characterizing books is probably meant to stress the absence of swearing, explicit scenes, etc and thus be appealing to folks who don't like these...
Wonder how many millions of readers I lose by being a little less particular about the language -:)

Wonder how many millions of readers I lose by being a little less particular about the language -:)

Something tells me even if you removed the swearing, that lovers of clean romance wouldn't be exactly your niche market ;)

Of course you could always try writing in a new genre …

Roughseasinthemed wrote: "Of course you could always try writing in a new genre …"

Might try clean non-fic, although 'dirty' may sometimes fit better if it's about biz or politics -:)

I tend to avoid sex scenes because they end up by detracting from the rest of what I am writing about. Maybe I lose readers, but if so, so what? Clean also does not mean sales - if you want something with no sex and no swearing, my scientific books fit that bill, but I bet you don't want that either. Basically, it is each to their own.

(Aside) I admire your ability, Nik, to come up with interesting topics, especially ones like this that tempt me with their ambiguity. Just have to see what you're thinking :)

As far as sex in books - or even in movies - I'm just not that interested. It's definitely not a selling point. Interesting premises, plots, and characters, however, are selling points.

In literature, intense violence or situations that particularly freak me out (anything claustrophobic or dealing with child abuse or torture) are things I will skip over, similar to covering my eyes in the cinema. Doesn't keep me from reading the book.

Thanks, Scout, glad you enjoy -:) Appreciate your insight and active participation!

It's a pleasure to be here.

So how do you like your books?

I don't mind sex/erotica, but I am not a fan of torture or rape or that kind of 'dirty' aspects of a book. Certain levels of violence give me anxiety.

Nik wrote: "So how do you like your books?"

Anyone for quick and clean?

Define quick and clean.

Nik gave a choice but I just rearranged to give a third option. Ask Nik!

Who's Nik?

Oops, we have an identity crisis here. Send for . . .

some face recognition software. You can't hide behind those sunglasses, Nikko :)

Kris wrote: "Nik wrote: "Seeing all the time 'clean' in description of romance, thriller, whatever, I assume there is a lot of dirt, so some authors probably want to distinguish their work.
As all my bets are i..."

As for the sex scenes, my books don't have them. Not because I am a prude, but when I did write them, when editing came around I deleted them because (a) they did nothing for the plot, and (b) I thought they were cringe-generating, so I deleted them.

Kris wrote: "My goodness, one of my favorite topics, because I am going to change the subject a little bit and ask: is it ever possible to write a good sex scene.."

As I'm often criticized for having too many sexual detours in my thrillers, I guess I'm failing miserably on the subject -:)
The critics say my oligarch hero is a misogynist and I guess I fail to convey that he loves women and just objectifies both genders for his personal needs, however has narrower interests with his own sex. Anyhow, romantic escapades may indeed distract from the main plot line and I certainly accept criticism here.

I haven't read Gabaldon's novels, but I do watch the Outlander series on Starz. I agree that the sex scenes advance character development, but they also advance the plot (especially the scene in which Jamie is raped). I think the sex scenes work because they're not gratuitous but an integral part of the story of a strong, honest relationship in a harsh world.

Scout wrote: "I haven't read Gabaldon's novels, but I do watch the Outlander series on Starz. I agree that the sex scenes advance character development, but they also advance the plot (especially the scene in wh..."

For me, what Scout wrote is the key. Sometimes sex, violence, and swearing are necessary to the story and to the characters being real but I despise any form of gratuitous sex or violence. IN general I do try to avoid books that have too much description of what the characters are doing sexually, because I don't enjoy it. It's not about being a prude, it's simply I prefer sensuality activating my imagination than graphic sex scenes.

I have read some pretty good books where I have seen reviews in which a reader complains about a couple of swear words and state that they wouldn't have bought the book if they had known. Generally, the swear words that have offended them didn't even register on my consciousness.

Interesting topic Nik! You must sit all day somewhere and think of up topics to put on here! lol :)

So anyway on with the subject at hand! :)

I read all kinds of stuff - horror (extreme horror too), urban fantasy, mystery, crime thrillers, etc. - not much seems to bother me. I will read most stuff that has violence and/or profanity. There has been some sex in the books I read but it is usually mild - I don't read the erotica books. The only thing I do not like to read about is animal torture in books. Horror tends to have some of that and I usually have to skip over it. All in all I guess you could say I have an iron stomach! lol :)

Marie wrote: "Interesting topic Nik! You must sit all day somewhere and think of up topics to put on here! lol :)

So anyway on with the subject at hand! :)

I read all kinds of stuff - horror (extreme horror to..."

Glad you like some of them :)
Nah, not that much of an effort: some are spontaneous, other inspired by actualities and yet another - just a result of spare time during the flights. I have a whole list, but sometimes lack the muse to lay them out :(

So here I sit on the fence. Neither too much sex or gratuitous violence works in general. However, it can be very much both if it is required by the story. The story needs to dictate. If an author is using the device for any other reason, then it is probably a mistake.

What's your preference ?

Nik wrote: "What's your preference ?"

I am not particularly enamored with gratuitous sex or violence. At some point it is like a medical film, graphic, but missing the core element and ultimately boring. For the sex part, it is much like horror, the theater of the mind is much more effective than spelling it out.

The violence is easier for me, but it has to support the larger story. Violence for the sake of violence does not usually work. If you are going to squash eyeballs, there needs to be an underlying reason to move the story along. If you are going to go into great detail on this, then what is the reason. It may work for no other reason you are trying to horrify and that is fine, but do not let it go over the top and get boring.

A perfect example for both violence and sex is from Terry Brooks and his The Word and the Void and Genesis of Shannara Series. In this two series, Brooks talks about evil that can happen. Once a city falls one of the fall outs is the men are sacrificed and Once Men set up Breeding Pens. He does not go into great detail what breeding pens are, but you already know. It works brilliantly.

I'm with you, Papa, "For the sex part, it is much like horror, the theater of the mind is much more effective than spelling it out."

I miss the older novels and Hollywood movies which made it clear through dialogue and interaction by two characters that sexual activitiy was imminent.

Rather than feeling the need to provide an explcitly detailed, play-by-play narrative, The camera would pan away to the moon and stars or the author would merely move on to another part of the storyline. It was assumed that the viewer or reader was sufficiently intelligent to know that sex was about to take place with no need to be an eye witness.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against sex. In all of the photos in our family album, during the first ten years of our marriage, my wife is wearing maternity clothes. After the birth of our fifth child, my wife convinced me that a vascetomy was in order if our relationship was to continue to include abundant intimate activity.

For those who prefer explicit, detailed sex scenes, the pornographic industry remains both alive and well in movies and books.

I don't think this is exclusive to erotica and romance at all. For a while now, a lot of indie authors have this idea that there must be sex in whatever story they write in order to be "realistic." One sci fi book I read a few years ago threw in gratuitous porno. And when I say porno, I mean they focused exclusively on the naughty bits and the mechanics of the act and not at all about how the characters felt or how it grew their love.

I don't mind sex scenes per se, but they should fit within the story. If you have a love story running underneath the greater plot, it could make sense they get together that way. But if your character hooks up with some random just so you can throw in a sex scene, you're better off leaving it out.

As a writer, my view has been that if the story needs it, they go into a room and close the door after them. After all, you don't describe I detail how they eat. But then again, maybe that hurts my sales. Who knows?

Ian wrote: "After all, you don't describe I detail how they eat...."

well actually....

If you're writing horror, the double entendre can become a triple.

I've noticed that the bigger an actor gets, the less explicit the sex scenes are. In novels, I'm reading for story that turns me on, not sex. I'm old enough to know what good sex involves, and I don't need a play by play description.

Explicit scenes probably need an actor/actress desperately needing work to get noticed. Once noticed, they can afford to show a script they don't like the round file.

So let me ask this question. Do you writers have hard times writing said scenes?

Papaphilly wrote: "So let me ask this question. Do you writers have hard times writing said scenes?"

In my case, I avoid them. I did write something once to show a degenerate society, but the book ended up too long so stuff had to be cut, and this was the first to hit the floor. I think my target audience is old enough to know how it all works, so I close the door when they get close to that.