Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

This is our discussion of the classic fantasy novel...


The Color of Magic by Terry Pratchett
(1983)

If this was the first Discworld novel I ever read I probably would not continue the series. It was just okay and the ending was rather meh.

For me, the Watch and Death arcs' first novels were better starters for the series.

I've heard that Terry Pratchett himself said that the series didn't really get going until the fourth book--that in the first ones, the plot was just there to serve the jokes. By the fourth book, the jokes were there to serve the plot.

I quite liked it, especially after having read Dragonflight. It's been a couple years, but I remember thinking that there were two pastiches (Conan and Lankhmar?) followed by a great parody of Pern. As someone who really loathed Pern, it was a relief to see it get skewered.

Beyond that, I thought Color of Magic was fun unto itself. I liked the Luggage, the wizard, and the (literal) cliffhanger at the end. And I seem to be in the minority, because I thought Color of Magic was way better than Guards! Guards!.

It's been several decades since I read this book. Another Classic Novel discussion that requires dusting off an old printed book. (Which quite literally changes one's perspective on the universe. When I read on the Kindle Fire, I face the La-Z-Boy toward the light, to avoid screen glare; when I read a printed book, I swivel 180° to illuminate the page. :)

I'm actually just starting on re-reading, so I'll comment as things strike my fancy.


Jim wrote: "I've heard that Terry Pratchett himself said that the series didn't really get going until the fourth book--that in the first ones, the plot was just there to serve the jokes...."

Still, the first book was popular enough to allow him to get to the 4th book. :)


Phil wrote: "I quite liked it, especially after having read Dragonflight. It's been a couple years, but I remember thinking that there were two pastiches (Conan and Lankhmar?) followed by..."

In 1983 there weren't a whole lot of fantasy comedy, and not nearly as much fantasy to poke at. Bored of the Rings took care of Tolkien, so Lieber, Howard and McCaffrey were the obvious targets.

Right from chapter 1, Bravd & Weasel are clearly takes on Leiber's Fafhrd & Mouser.


I thought it amusing that in the Forward to the 1989 paperback edition (the one with the octarine cover), Pratchett wrote, "geography is fuzzy... There are no maps." Mostly because I distinctly remember including a Discworld map in one of my Imaginary Geography Quizzes. :)

Right from the Prologue, Pratchett introduces his peculiar cosmology of a Disc atop four elephants and a giant turtle, A'Tuin. Borrowed from Indo-* mythology, Pratchett takes the time to play with some of the implications of such a construction, including polar coordinates (hubward & rimward, turnwise & widdershins), and the fact that there are 8 seasons (or two sets of four, if you prefer.)

It's also delightful that Pratchett includes a number of philosophers & scientists (in medieval society, the distinction would not yet exist) who are intent on studying the nature of the universe man inhabits. Specifically, such pursuits as determining the gender of Great A'tuin, and the albedo of his eyes.

I have such a strong emotional connection to this book. It was the Colour of Magic, along with Iron Council, that brought me back to loving fantasy after ten years of reading only scifi. This book completely disabused me of my notion that fantasy could not be fresh and interesting and was not exclusively the province of idiots like Goodkind.

Those that say this isn't the best place in the series to start are definitely correct, but for me and millions of others it definitely got the job done. The parodies and sendups of other fantasy series are spot-on, and the book is laugh-out-loud funny in many places. It also introduces many of the iconic concepts of the series that we basically take for granted now.

I just finished this a couple of days ago. It wasn't as uproariously laugh out loud funny as I recall it being, but I'm crediting that to the fact that this was my second read and the jokes weren't new to me. Still, I wound up highlighting a number of particularly amusing bits on my Kindle.

I actually did start the series with this book, and I have been reading the series in order despite pretty much everyone I know who's familiar with the series saying I don't have do so. (I have a fairly significant OCD when it comes to reading, or watching, a series in order).

Honestly, other than Cohen the Barbarian, I had never known until this very thread that Pratchett was parodying specific fantasy series as opposed to just a general parody of the genre. I've never read Lieber or McCaffrey.

Has anyone ever watched the adaptation of this for British TV? Sean Astin was good enough as Twoflower that my mind automatically pictured him in the role when I began this reread. And Christopher Lee is absolutely perfect as the voice of Death, to the extent that I hear him as Death in all Discworld books. Jeremy Irons as the Patriach, however, must have made not much impression on me. I didn't even remember him being in it at all until I looked up the movie on Wikipedia while rereading the book.

G33z3r wrote: "Bored of the Rings took care of Tolkien"

I was underwhelmed by Bored of the Rings. The best part of it was the cover art. Pratchett's book is more clever about going after fantasy tropes instead of just throwing in puns.

Phil wrote: "Bored of the Rings.... Pratchett's book is more clever about going after fantasy tropes instead of just throwing in puns. ..."

I can agree with that part, at least. Pratchett's humor is more sophisticated than the college-boy snickering of Board of the Rings. It's also quite different than the "snarky dialogue" school of humor that dominates so much of contemporary urban fantasy and some sci-fi these days. Pratchett isn't just about cracking a joke, but of setting up complete absurdities.

Mike wrote: "Has anyone ever watched the adaptation of this for British TV? ..."

I put the DVD in the player yesterday, but probably won't actually re-watch it for a few days yet. I mean, there's football and baseball to watch this weekend!

I think the movie's version of the "Luggage" is way closer to my mental image from the book then either of the cover artists whose work appears at the top of this discussion. Why would it look like a modern suitcase?

I keep meaning to get around to reading Bored of the Rings one of these days.

I first read this book about 15 years ago at the insistent urging of a co-worker who forced the first two books on me then kept asking me every day if I'd read them yet. Having my own pile of books to read (a pile that only gets bigger as life goes on) and not really feeling an urgent need to investigate the Discworld series (haven't we all been in this position before?) I skimmed them and gave them back to my co-worker with a grunt and a refusal to read any additional volumes.

This time around, I actually enjoyed the book, and took the time to notice all the wonderful parodies that I didn't remember from before - especially Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser as Bravd and the Weasel (the 1990s me really wanted to picture Pauly Shore as the latter, but I just couldn't do it).

I did notice that the luggage was very specifically described in the book as looking like a treasure chest with lots of little feet, whereas the book cover showed something like the latest offering from Samsonite. Also, someone stole the "u" from "Colour" in the title of my copy. It's an Americanization that reminds me of the story of how the guys in Led Zeppelin removed the "a" from "Lead" so us daft Americans wouldn't pronounced it "Leed." (And if you care, "Led Zeppelin" was a response to a critic who prophesized that the "New Yardbirds" were going to go over like a lead balloon.)

I read a GR review in which someone pointed out that the book was really a collection of four stories with the same characters, and that struck me as true during my re-read. The final story even references some adventures that were not detailed in the prior three stories, something about crossing the dry ocean I believe. This collection of stories reminded me of reading the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories and Conan stories in my junior high library in the mornings before school, so maybe the structure of the book is part of the parody also?

I agree that in many ways the plot serves the jokes rather than the other way around. The plot of the various stories was really nothing great in itself, and the best part of the books is the humorous prose and the oddball characters. The first two stories were very entertaining and I liked the third also but I found the fourth one tedious and hard to finish.

I think I'll read further into this series from time to time. It certainly doesn't appear to be a series that needs to be read all at one time.

Randy wrote: "I first read this book about 15 years ago at the insistent urging of a co-worker who forced the first two books on me then kept asking me every day if I'd read them yet. Having my own pile of books..."

Yeah, I've been in that position before, with this exact series in fact.

Mike wrote: "Randy wrote: "I first read this book about 15 years ago at the insistent urging of a co-worker who forced the first two books on me then kept asking me every day if I'd read them yet. Having my own..."

Coworkers pressure me to try Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire on a weekly basis. They keep saying, "This is the one where it gets good!" Why should I have to wade through one mediocre book and two crummy ones to get to the good part?

That's actually quite strange. If you start halfway through the series,you're missing some pretty important backstory. Not to mention some clues that wind up mattering later on.

I'm not a huge fan of humour fantasy (though the fact I read quite a bit of Xanth and Myth might confuse people on that...but I blame my high school summer reading lists for those) but Discworld was pretty famous so wanted to give it a try.

Apparently I got lucky enough to get a copy that both had the 'u' in Colour and a trunk with feet rather than a suitcase on the cover.

You know, I didn't catch all the parodies at first. Never read Leiber, and while the Pern bit niggled at the back of my head I didn't make and outright connection. I did of course catch the stereotypes of wizards/heroes and ummm, those fantasy staples, tourists regardless of what book they were originally making fun of.

I loved the thought he put into the world, figuring out all the things that would be different if the world was in fact a flat disc on the back of four elephants on the back of a turtle floating through space (actually the turtle bit appears again in The Magician's Land by Lev Grossman, Pratchett took from some, others take from him...)

So as I expected I didn't love it, but also didn't hate it. I might read more of the series at some point but don't feel a huge urge to do so.

For anyone who's like me in being generally kind of luke-warm on Discworld and Pratchett in general, I recommend Small Gods. By reputation, it's the finest that the series has to offer, and it's by far the best of the four Pratchett novels I've read (the others being Colour of Magic, Guards! Guards!, and Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch).

Andrea wrote: "You know, I didn't catch all the parodies at first. Never read Leiber, and while the Pern bit niggled at the back of my head I didn't make and outright connection...."

When Twoflowers is first talking to Rincewind at the Broken Drum tavern, Twoflowers list some famous heroes he hopes to see while in fabled Ankh-Morpork. He mentions the aforementioned Bravd & Weasel, he also lists Heric Whiteblade, whom I presumed to be referring to Moorcock's albino antihero Elric, though your interpretation may vary.

Andrea wrote: "Apparently I got lucky enough to get a copy that both had the 'u' in Colour and a trunk with feet rather than a suitcase on the cover...."

Why, does having a misspelling on the cover make a book more valuable ? :)

G33z3r wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Apparently I got lucky enough to get a copy that both had the 'u' in Colour and a trunk with feet rather than a suitcase on the cover...."

Why, does having a misspelling on the cove..."

I think it's about having a cover with things more like how the author envisioned them. ;)

That was my first Pratchett book (I have this thing where I have to read series in order) and I read it only a few years ago.
I found it a great introduction to the world, it's not laugh-out-loud funny but it made me chuckle and smile a lot.
It certainly made me want to read more from the author, and I read a Discworld book from time to time (I read about 12 of them I think).

My cover looks like this:

so they got the Luggage right.

For Pratchett fans, interesting tidbits about TCoM: http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/the-c...

Phil wrote: "For anyone who's like me in being generally kind of luke-warm on Discworld and Pratchett in general, I recommend Small Gods. By reputation, it's the finest that the series has to offer..."

I beg to differ. The best one would be Night Watch :D

Moving Pictures is as far as I've gotten, and it's quite enjoyable.

G33z3r wrote: "When Twoflowers is first talking to Rincewind at the Broken Drum tavern, Twoflowers list some famous heroes he hopes to see while in fabled Ankh-Morpork. He mentions the aforementioned Bravd & Weasel, he also lists Heric Whiteblade, whom I presumed to be referring to Moorcock's albino antihero Elric, though your interpretation may vary."

I thought the same thing. And I didn't notice it the first time I read it, or maybe I didn't care enough to remember it. And the city name "Ankh-Morpork" reminds me of the name "Lankhmar."

Silvana wrote: "For Pratchett fans, interesting tidbits about TCoM: http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/the-c..."

This is good stuff. Thanks for sharing the link.

I think I first read TCoM over twenty years ago (Is that even possible?) so I completely missed any references to those specific works of Fantasy, but that didn't diminish the humour for me. Like anything in the world, the read is the funniest the first time round, though I wouldn't say the book is laugh out loud funny. The humour is more subtle, giving cause for the occasional smile or inward chuckle.
I haven't read it for a long time, so I've just startedit again and will comment on more specific elements as we go.

One thing I can say at this point is that Rincewind still remains one of my favourite fictional heroes (Along with Sam Lowry from the film Brazil). I just love the fact that he's a complete coward, and is not even ashamed of it.

Was reading part 2 last night,...

In his [Rincewind's] somewhat defenseless state a stray thought, wandering through the die mentions in search of a mind to harbor it, slid into his brain.

"Here's another fine mess you got me into," he moaned.

An old Oliver Hardy catchphrase from Laurel and Hardy comedy duo. I presume Pratchett absorbed the 30's-40's movie humor in the same way I did, through reruns on b&w TV in 50's & 60's.

Strange to have a contemporary culture reference that's already old and half forgotten when the book was written ('83.)

I got a kick out of the references to "dehydrated water" later on.

Silvana wrote: "For Pratchett fans, interesting tidbits about TCoM: http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/the-c..."

Some of these I caught either the first or second time around. I'm assuming that some of the bits I caught on this reread, I actually did catch the first time and then forgot about me noticing them.

Some of these bits I wouldn't have noticed even after five readings.

I really like some of Pratchett's phrases. E.g., "If words had weight, a sentence from Death could anchor a ship."

G33z3r wrote: "I really like some of Pratchett's phrases. E.g., "If words had weight, a sentence from Death could anchor a ship.""

I got a kick out of the description of octarine as a "pigment of the imagination."

"I've always wanted to see a dragon."
"From the inside?"

Phil wrote: "For anyone who's like me in being generally kind of luke-warm on Discworld and Pratchett in general, I recommend Small Gods. By reputation, it's the finest that the series has to offer..."

It also has the advantage of being a stand-alone.

also, unlike Colour, he had gotten a good grip on on Discworld.

Circumfence - When I first read this, my eyes fail to recognize this as a neologism. Had Rincewind not explicitly questioned, "you mean circumference?", this cleverness might have entirely slipped my notice.

Chelonaut, clever portmanteau of Chelonii, the biological order of turtles, and astronaut (or argonaut or whatever).

The Broken Drum's beer is "not so much purchased as merely hired for a while."

Silvana wrote: "For Pratchett fans, interesting tidbits about TCoM: http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/the-c..."

After going back to re-read, I did notice one or two of these points. The Patrician being jowly and a bit tubby was one thing that stuck in my mind. I think it's because TP develops him a lot more in later books, and so I always picture him as thin and vulture like.
Death is another character that is better developed in later books. For example, in TCoM, at one point he 'stops a man's heart', and then takes the soul from a small cat cowering under a market stall (Quite unimaginable considering the love of cats that the later incarnation of Death has) The thing about Death later on is that he hasn't got a vindictive bone in his body. He knows that he is inevitable, so would never be found sitting in a tree saying things like 'I'll get you next time Cully.'

And that's the thing about this book. Being the first, you can see that TP was playing with ideas, taking them from established works of the genre, and twisting them about. In later works he develops the world and the characters, and fleshes them out with a more sophisticated look at the genre, and injecting the mores and attitudes from our own world.
The Discworld does become a lot better defined as the books progress, though I still have a soft spot for these earlier books. TCom is a bit like Discworld magic. It's free and untamed, its story lines not as neat, consistent, and well defined as later works, but it's still a fun read.

Matt

I would agree with your assessment. There is an unbridled joy in those first books. The early version of Death strikes me a bit like the Road Runner taunting a certain coyote.

Then early books in series don't always work well with later works.
The same is true in the Deryni books even though Kurtz revised the first trilogy she left some of the inconsistant elements there. The reasons are in the forward to the the revised Deryni Rising.

And there's only so much you can blame on the History Monks.

Matt wrote: "The Patrician being jowly and a bit tubby was one thing that stuck in my mind. I think it's because TP develops him a lot more in later books, and so I always picture him as thin and vulture like.."

TP himself said that the earlier Patrician was his not having such good ideas yet.

A lot of fans say, well, the Patrician in this book is obviously Snapcase, which makes it all coherent.

I don't know that I would have ever caught the Patrician being a different person without rereading further than just the first book. When I got to Vetinari, I didn't catch the differences i physical description, and my mind just filled him into the Patrician spot all along.

Randy wrote: "I read a GR review in which someone pointed out that the book was really a collection of four stories with the same characters, and that struck me as true during my re-read. ..."

I found this to be true and re-read, too. it almost has the feel of one of those "fixup" novels were an author takes some short stories previously published and combines them into a novel, though I don't know of any evidence that any of these were published separately before hand.

Of the four, I found the first ("The Color of Magic") to be the funniest, but of course it's the one that gets to provide all the hilarious background exposition on the unique setting of Discworld.

The second, "The Sending of Eight", in which Fate and the Lady (Luck) play dice over Rincewind & Co is amusing as well.

I didn't find the third segment, "The Lure of the Wyrm", as funny. It has the witty concept that Dragons are imaginary creatures and can only be brought into existence by people with strong imagination, and makes a few references to McCaffrey's Dragonriders with the punctuation in their names, but overall it's a little too much an adventure story.

The last segment, "Close to the Edge", mines a good deal of humor from the very concept of Discworld having an edge and the "circumfence".

Reading today, I came across one of the lines that actually makes me chuckle out loud.

"My name is immaterial," she said.
"That's a pretty name," said Rincewind.

It's often the simple little witticisms and the clever word play that create the jollies in this book.

Gary wrote: "Matt

I would agree with your assessment. There is an unbridled joy in those first books. The early version of Death strikes me a bit like the Road Runner taunting a certain coyote."

I've just reached the part in the book where Death has his little conversation with Fate. That was more like the later Death that we know and love.

Had been hunting around some local bookstores for this since the calendar turned to October, as I've never read Pratchett and was excited for this discussion. Closest I came was Good Omens. it's much more difficult to find old print copies of Discworld novels than I thought it would be (sans Amazon, of course).

Anyways, I threw in the towel and purchased the Kindle edition last night and read the first chapter. I'm finding it quite funny so far and, for whatever reason, I've enjoyed the Homunculus more than anything. Something about the image of that little guy in there frying bacon cracks me up...

The picture box with the homunculus inside always puts me in mind of a Flintstones camera. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was Pratchett's intention.

Mike wrote: "The picture box with the homunculus inside always puts me in mind of a Flintstones camera. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was Pratchett's intention."

Could be, though I don't think the Flintstones camera would ever have run out of pink paint due to taking too many pictures of women of negotiable virtue.

Matt wrote: " women of negotiable virtue. "

I like that! Might have to start using it...

How are you liking Perdido Street Station? Read that just a couple weeks ago..

Doug wrote: "Matt wrote: " women of negotiable virtue. "

I like that! Might have to start using it...

How are you liking Perdido Street Station? Read that just a couple weeks ago.."
There is a book I just picked up nog long ago for my Nook, now to find time to read it. My next Discworld book to read is Pyramids.

Doug wrote: "Matt wrote: " women of negotiable virtue. "

I like that! Might have to start using it...

How are you liking Perdido Street Station? Read that just a couple weeks ago.."

I'm liking it a lot. It's just got a great mix of ideas. He manages to convey the grim variety of New Crobuzon perfectly. The place isn't completely dissimilar to Ankh-Morpork, though I'm not quite sure which one I'd like to be a tourist in.