Reading the Detectives discussion

This is our spoiler thread for our October book, The Nine Tailors. Spoilers can be openly discussed here, so, if you haven't finished the book yet, you might prefer to stick to the general thread.

Not sure how many of us have read/started this one, but I wondered what everyone thought of the more unusually detailed setting of the crime. LP came, he visited, he met a man on the way out of the village and he left... Did anyone expect the crime to happen more quickly? It was a more extensive scene setting than we usually get and I thought it worked really well.

Yes it was, Susan. I think that as an author progresses with a successful character, he or she doesn't feel obligated to provide the excitement immediately, as it is likely that fans will stick it out until the murder occurs (or in this case, is discovered!)

Susan wrote: "Not sure how many of us have read/started this one, but I wondered what everyone thought of the more unusually detailed setting of the crime. LP came, he visited, he met a man on the way out of the..."

I really like the slow opening (slow in getting to the crime, not slow in action!) And, since this is the spoiler thread, I can add [but this is a major spoiler, so if you haven't finished the book, be aware that I give something significant away] (view spoiler)[that I love the way in which the bell ringing, which seems to be just an interesting side issue not really related to the crime, becomes a critical element of the finding of the emeralds. (hide spoiler)]

It is not my favourite by a long chalk. I find the book too long, rather tedious, and the whole story too complicated...

I thought the finding of the body extremely creepy. The whole novel was very atmospheric and, as Everyman said, the bells really added a lot to the story. We used to have bells rung in a church close to where I lived as a child and they do sound really loud! It was probably a good thing the church was not too close to any other houses...

Have any of you watched the TV version with Ian Carmichael? I think it was well done and pretty close to the book.

I enjoyed both of the series with Ian Carmichael and Edward Petherbridge. I started reading the books because of them.

I did not like the mystery. Except for the cryptogram, the puzzle seemed ho-hum; the solution unsatisfying. I did enjoy learning about change-ringing though.

Interesting to see that this has divided readers. The mysteries are certainly becoming more complex as we read on, I think.

That's interesting Susan. I just found it too complicated, a bit self conscious, and gah!! Bell ringning! I can't see the point of it.

Nadine wrote: "gah!! Bell ringning! I can't see the point of it. "

It's one of those things that you either love it or you don't.

I think we all engage in some hobby or activity like that, don't we? Something we're passionate about but others go "gah" about (like actually reading great books instead of watching the movies?)

In my case it is, or at least was when I had the health to do it, English Morris and Sword dancing (both longsword and rapper). Something perhaps on the order of 0.0000000001 percent of the world's population (if that) have any interest in, but those who do are passionate about it.

(Traditional Morris dancing: in both, actual dancing starts about 1-1/2 to 2 minutes in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nADws...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AohxB...

Rapper Sword dancing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fmAc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8MmD...

Longsword dancing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_zzg...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GXkN...

The Marlborough Ale is now one of the largest morris and sword festivals in the U.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Av64...
I danced at the first couple of Marlborough Ales, (nothing to do with the cigarette; they were held in, or actually just outside of, the town of Marlborough, Mass) back in the 1970s, before I moved West. Back then it was held in an open field where we, about ten teams at the time, camped for the weekend, and we danced through the towns and from town to town, dancing in every pub yard that would allow us, and in the public squares and anywhere else they would let us. From this video, it's clearly gone upscale since those days! But much less traditional; the dances were originally always danced outdoors and usually in pub or inn yards.

That's my passion, my equivalent of Mr. Venables's passion for change ringing. What's yours?

Everyman, thank you for sharing those links! They were amazing. I recently read Ngaio Marsh's "Death of a Fool", in which Morris dancing and sword dancing were featured, and I really had no idea what it entailed until I watched your videos. Wow! I feel like I should go back and reread the book so I can better appreciate the descriptions of the dancing.

Im not very good with anything technical, Im afraid and I'm usually content to read about my interests. Even then I often dont follow the technicalties of them very well. But with 9 Tailors and DLS I felt that the bell ringing (and I shudder to think how noisy that would be if you lived nearby) was rather forced. Sayers didn't take part in Bell ringing, she read it all up, and I wonder if she was really interested or if it was rather a show offy "clue" she thought of to put in the book.

The terms seemed to be an organizing device. Chapter titles. I suspect DLS had a lot of fun contriving this story..

Everyman, I would think that dancing, of any kind, can double as both a hobby and keep you fit - so good choices! I know I have always encouraged my own daughter to do ballet, as she does not like sport (too noisy, dirty, muddy) and so I am hoping it is an activity she can keep up, which will keep her healthy.

I actually think DLS's did the 'bell ringing' part of the book well. I would not expect an author to necessarily be passionate about something a character was, but she made the reverend sound very passionate indeed and it was obvious that the bells themselves became characters by the end of the novel.

I think the ringing of bells was quite a normal occurrence in England ,so much so ,that we took it for granted. In London ,we would often hear them, but moving further out it was something we realised was missing from a Sunday. After all the nursery rhyme Oranges and Lemons is a traditional rhyme going back some years. If nothing else I think it sets a time for the story.

I expect (since this is the spoiler thread) that the germ of the idea started with the knowledge that the peal of the bells could cause a fatality. DLS may have started with that and did her research to see how she could contrive a mystery that way.

Pghfan wrote: "I expect (since this is the spoiler thread) that the germ of the idea started with the knowledge that the peal of the bells could cause a fatality. DLS may have started with that and did her resear..."

That's very likely true. I wonder whether there was a death reported at some point which brought the idea to her attention.

Scientific American has even published an article about The Nine Tailors and change ringing.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...

Yes, I recall bells ringing on a Sunday. It was noisy, but generally accepted - they rang other times too, such as holidays and once when we were threatened by a flood, if I recall rightly - as happens in this book.

Pghfan wrote: "I expect (since this is the spoiler thread) that the germ of the idea started with the knowledge that the peal of the bells could cause a fatality. DLS may have started with that ..."

That's an interesting idea. What did anyone think of this ending?

I thought it was very clever and has a sort of inevitability to it, but it does defy our expectations that a murderer will be unmasked! I don't think this type of ending would work very often, but I enjoyed it in this book.

Everyman wrote: "Scientific American has even published an article about The Nine Tailors and change ringing.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/......"

Very interesting, Everyman. My father was born within the sound of Bow Bells and was very proud of the fact he was a true cockney.

Thanks for the link, Everyman. I didn't realize the art of change-ringing belongs to the British alone, although I do know the Mother Goose referenced.

The thought of the bells being the culprit had hung over me after reading early on about Cromwell's "careless ringers", resulting in death. But I got stuck on the rope marks, and I imagined the man tied to the wheels when bells were rung.

I did not guess the ending - nothing new there, I am useless, not that I try too hard. I must admit I did think he had got caught up on the ropes. Normally, I would feel 'cheated' that there was no killer, but it was cleverly done - with the two men each thinking the other had committed the crime. Overall, I really enjoyed the book and I think it was a good, fitting, conclusion to the crime.

Susan wrote: "I thought the finding of the body extremely creepy. The whole novel was very atmospheric and, as Everyman said, the bells really added a lot to the story. We used to have bells rung in a church clo..."
I agree. The finding of the body is creepy.

Nadine wrote: "Im not very good with anything technical, Im afraid and I'm usually content to read about my interests. Even then I often dont follow the technicalties of them very well. But with 9 Tailors and DLS..."

Speaking as someone who lives within sound of a church which still has bells which can be rung I love the sound of church bells. There is something quintessentially English about the sound. I certainly don't find it intrusive or annoying.

Pghfan wrote: "Have any of you watched the TV version with Ian Carmichael? I think it was well done and pretty close to the book."

I've just been watching the first episode, and really enjoyed the way they put in all the back story about Wimsey and Bunter in the war - very well done. Looking forward to watching the rest. I do really like Ian Carmichael and Glyn Houston (who is due to turn 91 this month!) as Wimsey and Bunter.

I remember that when I was a kid, Peter was at the wedding? where the necklace was stolen...

Yes, the story was changed so he was at the wedding - I thought it made the back story more understandable for the TV version.

Yes I do from what I can remember! we're talking a long time ago! I am glad to hear Glyn Houston is still there, He was the real Bunter!

Everyman wrote: "Pghfan wrote: "I expect (since this is the spoiler thread) that the germ of the idea started with the knowledge that the peal of the bells could cause a fatality. DLS may have started with that and..."
I dont think so. I think that experts feel that this while splendidly dramatic isn't all that probable that someone coudl die in that way.

Damaskcat wrote: "Nadine wrote: "Im not very good with anything technical, Im afraid and I'm usually content to read about my interests. Even then I often dont follow the technicalties of them very well. But with 9 ..."
Bells ringing for a service is one thing.. Im fine with that, but 9 hours of bells being rung in this odd combination, all trhough the Night? I mean would you really want to live near the church with that going on?

I suppose probably the villagers would be warned of it as a one-off event, but I shouldn't think anyone would get much sleep on that particular night!

I would be complaining to the Local Council, it would be like Fireworks nights! I know that mr Venables is meant to be a dear old man, but I can't stand him

I don't think the church was near any other houses. I think bells were rung for long-ish periods near us on holidays and I do recall being woken by them, as a child. I don't think anyone complained though!

I adored Mr Venables. For all his quirks he always put his parishioners first and they knew that.

Judy wrote: "I suppose probably the villagers would be warned of it as a one-off event, but I shouldn't think anyone would get much sleep on that particular night!"

But in a small village, it sounds as though a considerable percentage of the men in the village were directly or indirectly involved in bell ringing (they had plenty of ringers except for this dreadful flu). Or if not directly involved, would be related to ringers. So I doubt there would be all that much protest, at least publicly. It would make one very unpopular.

Nadine wrote: " I know that mr Venables is meant to be a dear old man, but I can't stand him "

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Everyman wrote: "Judy wrote: "I suppose probably the villagers would be warned of it as a one-off event, but I shouldn't think anyone would get much sleep on that particular night!"

But in a small village, it soun..."
Im sure the women were'nt too pleased

See, I think the bells would be comforting and, as I say, bells were rung in my area of East London as a child - which was a built up area with lots of people living nearby - without comment. This was a rural area and bells were used to inform and warn the villagers about events. They rang when someone died, they warned of flood or war or attack. So, I doubt anyone resented them and they would not have been so loud that they would have kept children awake - especially if they were used to them.

I should say that 9 hours of ringing and not in a musical way, would be enough to drive anyone nuts if they lived near. If a lot of the men in the areas were either down with the flu or joining in the ringing, the poor women would probably be longing for a night of sleep, as they had to get up in the morning for work or were nursing sick husbands, or had babies wakened and yowling..
its completely different hearing bells rung for a service or as a warning...

Well, we must agree to differ. These were scattered houses in a rural area. If they could hear the bells, the sound would be muted. I've had three babies and, trust me, once they are asleep the only things that wakes them is being hungry or wet - mine have slept through extremely loud neighbours parties, fireworks and just about everything else!

Yes, let's agree to differ over the sound of the bells!

On the flu, I've found a couple of interesting links on the deadly Spanish flu of 1918-19, which I think probably inspired the flu outbreak in this novel although it is set at a later date - I wonder if there were more outbreaks like this during the 1920s/30s?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/healt...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29...

Judy, I went to look at that very question, about whether there was additional Spanish flu in later years. I couldn't find any evidence of that. I hope I'm not mixing up the book and the TV version, but the TV version had the Spanish flu in the early 30's, when most of the action of the book takes place. I don't think the book mentioned Spanish flu.

Nadine wrote: "Im sure the women were'nt too pleased."

At that time, and in rural England, I'm not sure the men cared that much about what the women thought. Yes, that's a very sexist comment, but it was a very sexist time in country areas.

Susan wrote: "Well, we must agree to differ. These were scattered houses in a rural area. If they could hear the bells, the sound would be muted."

People learn to live next to train tracks and under airport takeoff and landing zones (my cousins lived directly in the path of the runway for McChord air base in Tacoma; when the planes took off they came only a hundred or so over the house, and at night their landing lights (also used for take-off) shone brightly into the living room. But they got so used to it they barely noticed.

When I went to visit my father in his midtown Manhattan apartment I could barely get any sleep for all the constant traffic noise and frequent sirens. To him, they were just background noise and didn't bother him in the least.

In general, it's amazing how much noise people can get used to and barely hear.

Pghfan wrote: " I don't think the book mentioned Spanish flu. ."

I don't think so, either, though I don't have an e-book edition to search. But my memory is that it's always just influenza.

I agree, Everyman. If bells were a 'normal' noise, even if they might keep adults awake if they rang for nine hours (!) but this was obviously a special event. It would be unlikely to keep babies awake though, as they are just used to sleeping through noise. They fall asleep in the busiest places, with all sorts of noise going on, if you are out and about, but it never seems to concern them. Shame we can't carry on that ability into adulthood!

Just to add some information to this thread - where I live in Lincolnshire - an area prone to flooding - some parishes still use the church bells as a warning of imminent flooding. Some areas have sirens but others still use the church bells.

I think church bells and change ringing has always been a big part of rural England and even if you live within earshot of the church most people don't find the bells disturbing and you soon learn to distinguish why they're being rung from the sound. I can hear our church bells and have slept through them before now. I can hear the church clock strike the hours as well and that doesn't stop me sleeping.

I used to live near a railway line and you really don't notice the noise and in fact on Christmas Day when there are no trains you notice the absence of noise.