Classics and the Western Canon discussion
General
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Planning for our first 2017 read
Is the list negotiable?I'd prefer Divine Comedy over Paradise Lost, and retain Don Quixote, so that the great Western civilizations are represented as much as possible.
That is a good list. It is a hard choice.
A hard choice indeed. Can't we just do them all? If I had to choose though I'd go for Plato's Republic, just because that's the one ancient classic in the list I didn't go through in detail in high school.Perfectly fine with any of them though. I'm actually going to have to read the Iliad again as it is the examination topic of one of my tutoring students.
It is a great list. I'm not so keen on Milton and would like to suggest either the morality play Everyman or Sir Gawain and the Green Knight if it's up for negotiation. But if I had to choose from the list you've put up, I'll go for anything Homer.As I've not participated in a group read before, I don't know how long they last. If it's a relatively short work, maybe we can do more than one.
I'm looking forward to this--whichever work we choose.
I want to thank the moderators for giving the relative newbies a chance to read some of these classics with the group. I haven't read any of those listed since my college days, so I would be happy with any of them. Looking forward to it! I also appreciate the chance to know the work selected earlier than later so we can read in advance of the discussion, I am finding that works much better than ending up in catch up mode later! If the moderators have a 'preferred' version of the work selected I would love to know that also. Thanks!
Time does fly, but I was here for The Aeneid in Nov. 2012 and remember it well enough it seems too soon for a re-read. I would feel negligent in not reading the Iliad first immediately followed by Odyssey. Is that a reasonable attitude?Of the remaining I will have to flip coins. From The Canterbury Tales I have only had to memorize the beginning of the book and read the Millers tale (too woefully typical, right?) and would like to read the work as a whole. I have read Republic on my own and would enjoy reading it more in depth with this group, I tackled part of Paradise Lost in college too long ago to think about and wouldn't mind revisiting that one with the group too.
Although I would like to second Nemo (
Everyman wrote: "Before we start in with Chekhov, I want to introduce the group to what the moderators have decided to do for the first read of 2017 (starting on January 4th).We have had a considerable change in ..."
A formidable list: it could be my "never finished shelf". My order of interest is, C.T., Rep., P.L., Ili., Ody., Aen. I would also like to second Nemo's suggestion on D.Q. The question of D.C. vs. P.L. requires more thought.
Here's another vote for including the Divine Comedy on the list. Since I'm in the middle of rereading the Aeneid and reread the Iliad and Odyssey earlier this year, I might pass if one of those is selected, but they are, of course, infinitely worth reading and rereading.
I would love to read either The Canterbury Tales or Paradise Lost. Both have forlornly sat on my shelf for an embarrassing number of years!!!!
Nemo wrote: "Is the list negotiable?I'd prefer Divine Comedy over Paradise Lost, and retain Don Quixote, so that the great Western civilizations are represented as much as possible."
Well, we're always open for reasonable negotiation, but there are reasons that we intentionally omitted The Divine Comedy and Don Quixote. But I don't see any reason for us to be secretive about it.
For the Divine Comedy, we had done it so well with Laurel moderating that any reprise would be a let-down and would make any follow-up moderator feel inadequate. Plus it would take over three months to do at the pace we did it before, which made a lot of sense, of one canto per day. All those posts are still there for anybody who wants to go back and review them.
Don Quixote was omitted for a variety of reasons, including that none of the moderators was at all interested in moderating the discussion if it won. We're human too, after all!
I have a copy of everything but the Virgil and the Plato, & would prefer to read something I already own.
Mark wrote: "("none...at all interested") An interesting comment on the fate of D.Q.
(But what does "humanness" have to do with it?)"
I suspect humanness means that even if every person voted for DQ they don't want to expend their energy moderating this book. Or, as I tell my daughters, "Because."
I studied Chaucer in college and would enjoy revisiting it. Milton seems a little heavy for the winter months. The Tales being much lighter...a better choice.
Dianne wrote: "Or, as I tell my daughters, "Because." "My roof, my rules? :)
I suppose that's reasonable, as long as you're willing to abide by their rules, when it is your turn to live under their roof...
Elizabeth wrote: "I have a copy of everything but the Virgil and the Plato, & would prefer to read something I already own."The ebook versions of both the Virgil and the Plato can be downloaded for free, unless you much prefer a paper version.
Nemo wrote: "Dianne wrote: "Or, as I tell my daughters, "Because." "My roof, my rules? :)
I suppose that's reasonable, as long as you're willing to abide by their rules, when it is your turn to live under t..."
ha ha!
Short answer: Absolutely my house my rules!
Long answer: Absolutely! 1. At ages four and seven if that wasn't the case those two would be subsisting on sour patch kids. 2. I usually actually do explain the rationale for the 'rules' 3. Kids yearn for structure and thrive on it, and I suspect it will serve as a solid foundation for them to make their own decisions later in life 4. I'm a really great mom, loving and involved and silly and fun and happy and full of life, so they put up with the rules.(as teenagers, TBD!) 5. I'd be lucky if they'd have me when I'm older! Reminds me of the wonderful book Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End about death and dying in the U.S., which discusses how care for the elderly has largely shifted from families to assorted and sundry facilities. But I'd accept that if it means I'm not hampering their own adult lives later. And they promise to visit me lots. :)
ps, I love how we are all having a spirited discussion even before the classic is selected. This group is great!
Everyman wrote: "For the Divine Comedy, we had done it so well with Laurel moderating that any reprise would be a let-down and would make any follow-up moderator feel inadequate."Isn't the reason we re-read classics because we can never exhaust the depth and riches of those great works? I think Laurel would agree that she discovers something new and gains new insights every time she re-reads DC, and I'm sure other moderators can enrich the reading experience of the group with their unique perspective, knowledge and experience as well.
The posts from the last group read are still there, yes, but those posts can never be a substitute for live discussion, where group members learn and grow together through the mutual exchange of ideas and sharing of insights, IMO.
(Having said the above, I have to admit I don't plan on joining the re-read, and my suggestion is probably a moot point anyway, but I think something needs to be said for DC (and DQ), if only for those who haven't read it and would benefit much from a group read)
I am fine with any of these suggestions. Some I've read and others not. Too bad Don Quixote and the Divine Comedy aren't on the list. I would love to re-read those. Maybe we can re-consider next year ;)
Nemo wrote: "Everyman wrote: "For the Divine Comedy, we had done it so well with Laurel moderating that any reprise would be a let-down and would make any follow-up moderator feel inadequate."Isn't the reason..."
Are you arguing because you really care, or you arguing mostly for amusement? Or practice?
Kerstin wrote: "I am fine with any of these suggestions. Some I've read and others not. Too bad Don Quixote and the Divine Comedy aren't on the list. I would love to re-read those. Maybe we can re-consider next ye..."We can always reconsider. But not this year. [g]
Everyman wrote: "Are you arguing because you really care, or you arguing mostly for amusement? Or practice?"All of the above. :) I've had my say, and will speak no more on the matter.
Great idea! Also a good chance to read a different translation.
I'd happily join in with any of these readings. Aeneid and Iliad are on my TBR list for the recent future anyway, so my vote will probably lean in their direction.
I haven't read The Republic for a long time, and I would definitely enjoy reading it with the group.
I'm happy with any of these. I only recently read The Odyssey so I'd personally prefer something else, but it looks a great selection to me.
I'd be happy to tackle any of these, though my memory from studying Milton's Paradise Lost for English Literature A-level (17-18 years old) was that I wasn't all that keen on the poem's highfalutin, grandiose style.Agree that it would be great to tackle the Divine Comedy with this group one day, and I'd enjoy the opportunity of unearthing all my notes from university, though I remember the Cambridge professor we had being stressed about the idea of tackling all three canticles in one academic year, let alone 3 months. Given how dense the poem is, it would be a struggle to unpack more than 3 cantos per week, which would take up the best part of a year...
Dave wrote: "I'd be happy to tackle any of these, though my memory from studying Milton's Paradise Lost for English Literature A-level (17-18 years old) was that I wasn't all that keen on the poem's highfalutin..."You might feel differently if you read "Paradise Lost" now as a grown up.
Great list, difficult choice! But my preference would be:1) Plato, Republic
2) Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales
3) Milton, Paradise Lost
The rest of them I have read recently (last year and this year)...
All of them are in my tbr list! So anyone will do it for me. Would vote for the Iliad because I was planning to read it next year.
I would love to do Homer or Plato with this group.
Great list, have done Homer but his books always deserve rereads so no problem with whatever is chosen!
I would prefer Republic, but any of those books are fine for me.
Unfortunately, democracy is not always best! ;-)
Hilary wrote: "Unfortunately, democracy is not always best! ;-)"Sure it is. It's not actually good, but the others are so much worse.
Roger wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Unfortunately, democracy is not always best! ;-)"Sure it is. It's not actually good, but the others are so much worse."
Hmm.. It looks like a discussion on Republic has already started. :)
Roger wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Unfortunately, democracy is not always best! ;-)"Sure it is. It's not actually good, but the others are so much worse."
An opinion column in today's New York Times suggests that it may be time for the US to change to a monarchy.
http://nyti.ms/2ebGvVd
I do not endorse the idea, I just offer it. [g]
Ah well Roger, it has been said that democracy is the best that's on offer. Maybe it's the best of a bad lot. Unfortunately, when it's removed from the Political (deliberate capital 'P') forum democracy can be difficult to operate in practice. Let me see, take a wild idea: a decision must be made on a holiday destination for a group of friends. We belong to the group. We have disparate ideas. We ALL want to throw in our tuppence/two cents worth. We ALL have our preferences, quite naturally. Do we vote or do we have a smaller team to lead us?
This is just a crazy little example, you understand ... [g]
Hilary wrote: "Do we vote or do we have a smaller team to lead us?..."Unfortunately, a republic (the actual -- or variant democratic form, if you prefer, of most U.S. government) doesn't always seem to be much better at arriving at decisions equitably. But listening, as well as speaking, has long been one of the tools available to humans.
I won't be voting as I can not always be depended on to participate in the reads I've voted for. Having said that, I once took a course, many years ago, that focused almost entirely on The Republic. I remember very little of it and did very poorly in the course. Would be happy to revisit it and any other on the list, (were I to actually participate in January which I cannot guarantee to do in Nov). I remember reading some article last year (actually this year, but it feels like last year) re current events etc, and how in The Republic, the question is posed as to how a democracy would evolve, what would come next after a democracy was established (sorry I don't have the exact words) and the answer given was that a democracy would, eventually, over time, become a tyranny. I thought that was interesting. Make of it what you wish.
Theresa wrote: "what would come next after a democracy was established (sorry I don't have the exact words) and the answer given was that a democracy would, eventually, over time, become a tyranny. I thought that was interesting."I hope someday we will take a look at the Federalist Papers in this group, perhaps as a reflection on the Republic. But now is probably not the best time. :)
Thomas wrote: "Theresa wrote: "what would come next after a democracy was established (sorry I don't have the exact words) and the answer given was that a democracy would, eventually, over time, become a tyranny...."ah yes...but there seems to be a joke in that that seems to have gone over my head.
I found what I was referring to. The article was from last May. I remembered it because of the reference to The Republic and was sorry I didn't actually remember the actual story in the book itself.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/...
Read only the first few paragraphs if you wish to avoid reading anything from the great 2016 flood of political punditry.
Thomas wrote: "I hope someday we will take a look at the Federalist Papers in this group, perhaps as a reflection on the Republic. But now is probably not the best time. :)"They're on the bookshelf, so may get picked some day by the Random selector. Or, as a moderator, you could always nominate them. Or, you could pick a couple of particular interest (they're quite short) and read them for a Interim Read. Or if we don't forget, we could consider reading them as next year's Holiday program so people could skip in and out as time and interest allowed. Lots of options!!
The poll is now up, and will remain open until November 20th.
Thomas wrote: "Theresa wrote: "what would come next after a democracy was established (sorry I don't have the exact words) and the answer given was that a democracy would, eventually, over time, become a tyranny...."On the contrary, now is exactly the right time!
Everyman wrote: "The poll is now up, and will remain open until November 20th."Sorry. This is probably a dumb question, but where is the poll?
Tamara wrote: "Everyman wrote: "The poll is now up, and will remain open until November 20th."Sorry. This is probably a dumb question, but where is the poll?"
Never mind. I just found it. Thanks.
Thomas wrote: "Theresa wrote: "I hope someday we will take a look at the Federalist Papers in this group, perhaps as a reflection on the Republic. But now is probably not the best time. :) ...."
sure, I'd be up for a someday discussion of John Stewart Mill's On Liberty. I'd be particularly interested in the background discussion about the man, his wife, and her possible influence on his essay.
Currently I am reading Alexander Hamilton bio by Ron Chernow; specifically just now, Hamilton's large part in the writing of the Federalist Papers under a fierce deadline pressure. (The papers of which Theodore Roosevelt explained as "on the whole the greatest book" dealing with practical politics) And now things are in a challenged way....Hamilton wrote in his essays the need for executive branch vigor and invoked the king of England as an example of what should be avoided, especially the monarch's lack of accountability. Every president "ought to be personally responsible for his behavior in office". ..but I digress.. back to the poll selections! lol!
We have had a considerable change in membership over the life of the group, and many of our current members never had the chance to read and discuss what I would consider a core of "classic classics," or the more basic works of the traditional Western Canon which we read in the earlier years of the group.
One of the key elements of a classic is that it is a book which can and should be not just read but reread. So we have decided to do a "revisit the shelf" read in January where we will reread one of those traditional Western Canon classics which the group read in its earlier years. We have decided to cut off the time frame at 1700. With one exception, Don Quixote, which the moderators don't think is quite as deserving of re-reading as the other works on the list, here in chronological order is the list of works from which we will choose our January read.
Homer, Iliad
Homer, Odyssey
Plato, Republic
Virgil, Aeneid
Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales
Milton, Paradise Lost
This thread is available for discussing both this decision (we hope it meets with the group's general approval!) and the specific works. I'll put a poll up in few days, so look for it.