Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Lily wrote: "Storytelling was once a much more oral art than since literacy (printing press?) reached a broader swath of humanity."

Storytelling was originally totally oral. Every society developed language before it developed writing, and I know of no society with language which didn't have storytelling. The early classics of Western literature -- Iliad, Odyssey, Gilgamesh -- were oral literature long before they were written down to be read.

And, of course, almost all children are read to before they learn to read (and those that aren't should be!), so in our intellectual development, too, storytelling is, for many years, our only source of access to literature.

Everyman wrote: And, of course, almost all children are read to before they learn to read (and those that aren't should be!), so in our intellectual development, too, storytelling is, for many years, our only source of access to literature.

I'm still intrigued by the question of how our experience of, and appreciation for, literature changes depending on whether we read a book or listen to an audio book. I'm also wondering whether I should embrace or avoid the BBC Masterpiece Theatre version of Bleak House.

I'm a huge fan of film and a voracious consumer of Masterpiece Theatre. But I'm wondering about the difference between hearing a story and reading a story. I suppose that a brilliant director might interpret a novel in the film medium and create visual images in ways that might be superior to what my imagination would create. And an experienced actor, presumably British, giving an audio-recorded reading of Bleak House, might add wonderful dimensions to my experience of Dickens' masterpiece. But I know it would be a different intellectual/artistic experience than if I just let my brain's reaction to the words on the page supply the images and sounds.

We've all probably had the experience of seeing a movie after reading a book and being resentful of the director interfering with our mental image of what the heroine looks and sounds like. That experience, I think, prejudices me a bit against accessing BH via an audio book.

Everyman wrote: "Mark wrote: "So, I’m strategizing about how I’ll approach this masterpiece, and I invite any recommendations from this group of passionate readers."

One thing I should mention is that this group r..."

Glad to hear that we will be taking our time with Bleak House. I think I made an audible gasp when I picked up a copy of the book and saw how long it was!! I am usually reading more than one book at a time, so I was thinking ahead of how I would try to keep up. I feel more at ease now. Thanks.

"Bleak House" originally appeared in newspapers at the rate of three or four chapters a month. It would be interesting to follow the same breakdown using weeks rather than months. That would give us twenty weeks of reading and discussion. Perhaps that would be too slow, though.

Laurele wrote: ""Bleak House" originally appeared in newspapers at the rate of three or four chapters a month. It would be interesting to follow the same breakdown using weeks rather than months. That would give u..."

I think we should follow a schedule based on the original serialisation. But reading at a rate of 2 instalments a week gives perhaps a better timeframe for the discussion.

Mark wrote: "We've all probably had the experience of seeing a movie after reading a book and being resentful of the director interfering with our mental image of what the heroine looks and sounds like. That experience, I think, prejudices me a bit against accessing BH via an audio book. ..."

Mark -- personally, I find films interfere with my mental images of characters from the text, but can't think of an example off hand where I had the same feeling about an audio version. (Somehow, I think there may have been one that did.) I suspect those reactions may be very personal and dependent on how one processes information.

Mark wrote: "I'm also wondering whether I should embrace or avoid the BBC Masterpiece Theatre version of Bleak House."

I haven't seen that series, but based on many others I have seen (and right now I'm watching the nearly 30 episode adaptation of Phineas Finn, which is incredibly detailed and quite close to the original, as I also read the book) that of necessity all of these productions omit significant details, reorder incidents, and eliminate swaths of material which are critical to the finer points the author is making. So while I think it's fine to watch the video, and it will give you the outlines of the story, I think relying solely on it will leave you without appreciation of many of the important points Dickens is offering.

Laurele wrote: ""Bleak House" originally appeared in newspapers at the rate of three or four chapters a month. It would be interesting to follow the same breakdown using weeks rather than months. That would give u..."

Edit: Re-reading Laurel's post I see that she suggested doing the 20 installments over 20 weeks. My suggestion was, as David commented, doing two installments a week for a ten week read. I think 20 weeks (five months) may be too slow a read even for this group to sustain. But others may disagree?

My initial post before the edit:

I suggested this precise option in the Moderator's discussion group. I think it has great appeal, since it will allow us to see the points at which Dickens chose to leave the reader in suspense, and those sections which he thought were sufficiently self-contained to constitute a coherent set of chapters.

Unless there are arguments against it, and anybody who has such an argument (such as that 10 weeks is unreasonably short or unreasonably long to allow for the reading) is welcome to offer it, I suspect that this is the pattern we will follow for the read.

Okay, the moderators are agreed that we will do Bleak House over ten weeks, reading two of the original monthly installments each week. Lily posted the schedule of installments in an earlier posts, but I've copied it in below for easier reference.

Theaetetus runs through July 8, so we still have plenty of time to chew over knowledge of the dialogue. Then we will have the usual two week Interim Read (so you can give full attention to Plato through the full time, and still have two weeks to start BH before the discussion starts). So the Bleak House discussion will start on July 23rd and run through September 30. After another Interim Read, assuming another two week IR, The Golden Ass discussion will start on October 15.

We aren't yet decided how long the GA reading schedule will be, but probably somewhere close to Thanksgiving. In the past we have scheduled something different for the holiday break (Thanksgiving to New Years), so you won't need to think about a full blown major book discussion, but there will still be something here to keep your intellectual juices flowing.

In January, then, we will start another major read, but we have plenty of time to worry about what that will be.

So the rest of the year is mapped out for us. Should be lots of fun, and lots of intellectual challenges stretching our brains and exercising our minds. Just the combination we all crave.

Naturally, I forgot to include the original BH schedule in that post, as I said I would. So here it is. I won't correct the dates here: you can easily figure it out if you want to, with the first two installments (March and April 1852) being discussed on July 23-29.


Instalment Date of publication Chapters
I March 1852 1–4
II April 1852 5–7
III May 1852 8–10
IV June 1852 11–13
V July 1852 14–16
VI August 1852 17–19
VII September 1852 20–22
VIII October 1852 23–25
IX November 1852 26–29
X December 1852 30–32
XI January 1853 33–35
XII February 1853 36–38
XIII March 1853 39–42
XIV April 1853 43–46
XV May 1853 47–49
XVI June 1853 50–53
XVII July 1853 54–56
XVIII August 1853 57–59
XIX–XX September 1853 60–67

Everyman wrote: "Nemo wrote: "But why then do you still need to make an affirmation, besides the yea and nay? "

Because the law requires it."

Where did that law originate from? Is it the residue of an ancient practice, the meaning of which is lost?

As fas as I know, an oath used to go like this: "If I lied (or did some other evils), let me be punished (by god) in this way." The terms of the oath are very specific and it is significant because of the belief in a deity (or deities) that exacts vengeance; another form of oath is to swear upon something one holds sacred, perhaps meaning that his statement is as true to him as the sacred object; but, merely saying "I swear that I..." doesn't add anything to the statement, and seems to be rather superfluous.

Nemo wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Nemo wrote: "But why then do you still need to make an affirmation, besides the yea and nay? "

Because the law requires it."

Where did that law originate from? Is it the residue ..."

I have no idea. I'm sure that if you dug into it deeply enough, you would find that somebody somewhere, and probably many somebodies many somewheres, has studied it and written all about it. But I'm not such a somebody.

If you do study it and find out, let us know.

As I understand it, "taking the Lord's name in vain" means "swearing falsely."

Everyman wrote: "So the Bleak House discussion will start on July 23rd and run through September 30. After another Interim Read, assuming another two week IR, The Golden Ass discussion will start on October 15."

Thanks for the schedule. I plan to read The Golden Ass with the group, and it's nice to be able to plan ahead like this.

Roger wrote: "As I understand it, "taking the Lord's name in vain" means "swearing falsely.""

I understood it differently. "To take the Lord's name in vain" is any time His names are used in a non-reverential sense.

When do we start with Bleak House?

Jan wrote: "When do we start with Bleak House?"

23rd July. See Everyman's post above (#115)

Whatever you do, don't look up Bleak House on Wikipedia. The spoiler is right there at the beginning of the dad-blamed article.

So mad right now.

Zippy wrote: "Whatever you do, don't look up Bleak House on Wikipedia. The spoiler is right there at the beginning of the dad-blamed article.

So mad right now."

Good tip.

Also, I recently watched the first episode of the BBC Bleak House mini-series, figuring I was safe since I was ~30% of the way through reading the book. Well, the show put in some additional "clues" which were not presented in the book at that point. So I was disappointed to figure some things out that I had not yet read. :(

Linda wrote: "Zippy wrote: "Whatever you do, don't look up Bleak House on Wikipedia. The spoiler is right there at the beginning of the dad-blamed article.

So mad right now."

Good tip.

Also, I recently watc..."\

Always best, I think, to approach a new book fresh and only watch the movie or read the reviews, if you want to, after finishing it.

Everyman wrote: "Naturally, I forgot to include the original BH schedule in that post, as I said I would. So here it is. I won't correct the dates here: you can easily figure it out if you want to, with the first..."

Someone check me, please. But I got my book yesterday and just made up this little table for myself. Figure it might be helpful to others. (But someone please proof - I'll correct if you report I've goofed. See 116 above.)

Chapters Discussion
1–7....... July 23 – July 29
8–13..... July 30 – Aug 5
14–19.... Aug 6 – Aug 12
20–25... Aug 13 – Aug 19
26–32... Aug 20 – Aug 26
33–38... Aug 27 – Sept 2
39–46... Sept 3 – Sept 9
47–53... Sept 10 – Sept 16
54–59... Sept 17 – Sept 23
60–67... Sept 24 – Sept 30

Lily wrote: "Someone check me, please."

Your schedule looks correct to me - two installments per week.

Lily wrote: "But I got my book yesterday and just made up this little table for myself. Figure it might be helpful to others..."

It will be. I was just lazy. Thanks for doing the detail work.

Linda wrote: "Lily wrote: "Someone check me, please."

Your schedule looks correct to me - two installments per week."

Thanks much, Linda. I always avoid this exercise until absolutely necessary, so when I end up doing it rather than benefiting from someone else's effort, I figure I might as well return the favor. But sometimes I avoid sharing because these efforts are so prone to easy errors. So I really appreciate the proofing!

Bleak House--what a great choice! I just finished reading Middlemarch, however, so 700 pages later, I am a bit 19th-centuried out and have other things on my plate. I did not vote, but I may be tempted to drop in and peek. I know Bleak House only through a PBS adaptation about 15(?) years ago, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Happy reading, all!

I am halfway through Middlemarch and as well am reading various other shorter books. I voted for the Golden Ass but I do want to give this a go. I think I'll try an audiobook version to start with.

as to the discussion of audiobooks, I have listened to plato's dialogues while walking and I find that there is something about the playful back and forth of the dialogues that goes well with the rhythm of walking and thinking.

The best ideas I've ever had came while I was out walking (the worst ideas came during a sleepless night of tossing and turning and over-thinking some problem)

Kathy wrote: "Bleak House--what a great choice! I just finished reading Middlemarch, however, so 700 pages later, I am a bit 19th-centuried out and have other things on my plate. I did not vote, but I may be tem..."

Oh, but Bleak House is totally different from Middlemarch. I love them both, but reading each is a totally different experience.

My family reading group will be half-way through Tale of Two Cities when Bleak House begins... So this is definitely the winter of Dickens.

Tale of Two Cities has been a large and challenging read for our family group (which is why we chose it) but I had a little laugh when my copy of Bleak House arrived in the mail... it is at least twice the size of ToTC.

Everyman wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Bleak House--what a great choice! I just finished reading Middlemarch, however, so 700 pages later, I am a bit 19th-centuried out and have other things on my plate. I did not vote, bu..."

Truth be told, I'm trying to finish my own second novel. :) No more hefty reads for me this summer!

Cass wrote: " I had a little laugh when my copy of Bleak House arrived in the mail... it is at least twice the size of ToTC. "

And, in my humble opinion, ten times as good. I think BH is one of his two best novels. (So you won't need to ask, Great Expectations is the other.) I think Tale of Two Cities is one of his least successful as a novel, though I admit its popularity.

I read the first two chapters of Bleak House tonight. Reinforced why I avoid Dickens, despite the humor I did enjoy. And, yes, I'll not again preempt the starting line. (Get back in the starting gate, lady!)

Everyman wrote: " I think Tale of Two Cities is one of his least successful as a novel, though I admit its popularity.
"

Yes, I am not seeing what the fuss about. There are a few very well written chapters (the wineshop, the dude in the country) and quite a few brilliant passages (the bit about dover being a smuggler's port), but I am half-way through the book and absolutely nothing has happened... I mean things have happened but I have not felt any attachment at all to any of the characters, heck two got married and I didn't feel the slightest stirring of emotion. I am kind of bored. Impressed with certain aspects and am happy reading it for that reason, but nothing is really happening.

I thought it was supposed to be about the french revolution, so far a few people have done very little and one chick is knitting a bit.

I hope the discussion of Bleak House, which as I write has not begun, will deal with this matter of the dislike or annoyance some people feel for Dickens, in very marked contrast to the opposite affection which others feel.

When I first encountered Dickens the Received View was still that of Leavis and the second-generation Modernist realism, that he was mannered, otiose, and clumsy. This view has persisted despite the obvious vulnerability of Dan Brown, Michael Chabon, and others of our contemporaries to the same criticism.

For example: what do we mean when we say that a writer is mannered, and why is that a bad thing? In what way would the famous description of Nemo's spontaneous combustion in Krook's shop be better if it were written by, say, Saul Bellow?

Or, as Cass is complaining about A Tale of Two Cities, whence the feeling that nothing is happening and that the characters are remote.

Bleak House being one of my most formative books, I look forward to the discussion. I promise not to be defensive and I hope that my pressing these issues will not be seen as donnish and a distraction from the book itself.

I've just happened across a cheap copy of Bleak House in the Nonesuch Dickens. Nothing like a sumptuous book to increase the reading pleasure.

Everyman wrote: " I think Tale of Two Cities is one of his least successful as a novel, though I admit its popularity.
"
And Cass followed up:Yes, I am not seeing what the fuss about. ... I am half-way through the book and absolutely nothing has happened...

I read Tale of Two Cities during the Iran hostage crisis in the late '70s. I vividly recall thinking that some of scenes gave me a better understanding of the mob mentality than anything I was seeing on TV news at the time.

Oh, I have to agree with that. The aspect of mob mentality is very interesting... From the wineshop (draining a casket of wine) to the death of a boy (standing around watching and doing nothing), to the reaction toward their master (fear).

You are right, this is one of the most interesting aspects of the story.

Please consider whether an "Illustrations" thread makes sense for Bleak House. On the one hand, given the excellent sites with illustrations available, it may make no sense to replicate illustrations themselves here. On the other, it might be useful to have even those relatively few links in one place rather than embedded in either the discussion or background resources. Then, if there were illustrations members do want to discuss, they could be reproduced and highlighted -- either on that thread or embedded in the main conversation. Opinions? Suggestions?

(I don't believe that the situation is like Dante, where there are a variety of illustrators to compare, although there may be others besides Hablot Knight Browne - Phiz.)

Lily wrote: "Please consider whether an "Illustrations" thread makes sense for Bleak House. On the one hand, given the excellent sites with illustrations available, it may make no sense to replica..."

I think it would be lovely.

Lily wrote: "Please consider whether an "Illustrations" thread makes sense for Bleak House. On the one hand, given the excellent sites with illustrations available, it may make no sense to replica..."

Are we talking about the original illustrations, or all of them? What is it we would hope to learn?

Lily wrote: "Please consider whether an "Illustrations" thread makes sense for Bleak House. "

It might. However, to avoid spoilers, only those illustrations related to chapters under discussion should be posted; it shouldn't be all illustrations posted initially. (Links to all the illustrations are fine; people are perfectly entitled to go look at future illustrations just as they are free to read ahead of the schedule, but the threads should be maintained spoiler-free.)

However, for the original illustrations, since there are only a few illustrations (at most) for each reading segment, and they were part of the initial publication, it may make sense to include them and their discussion in the regular discussion.

I'm not averse to a separate illustrations thread it it seems useful, but as you not, there aren't as many as there were for Divine Comedy, and most of the BH illustrations were part of the original publication, unlike the DC.

I have come across several points which strongly suggest, though don't definitively state, that Dickens chose many, if not all, of the scenes which should be illustrated. If that's the case, it perhaps makes stronger that the illustrations should be considered within the textual discussion (though that doesn't preclude also a separate illustrations thread).

Everyman wrote: "...If that's the case, it perhaps makes stronger that the illustrations should be considered within the textual discussion..."

I'm fine with that. My original inquiry at 145 was based on a little bit of a feeling that illustrations may have gotten in the way of discussions of the text when we did Dante, so was wondering if efforts might be appropriate to avoid such happening here.

As many use ebooks, illustrations are often lost. (That may not be as true for those using devices like IPADs.) I am enjoying my inexpensive B&N classics hard copy both for the pictures and its notes, while largely reading on my Kindle. But for those who do not have access to the pictures on whatever they are reading, several excellent web sites are available, even if most must be used used judiciously if a reader wants to avoid spoilers. At least one site gives nice background information on Dickens' relationship with his chief artist for illustrating Bleak House and a bit on the printing technologies involved.

Lily wrote: "As many use ebooks, illustrations are often lost. ... for those who do not have access to the pictures on whatever they are reading, several excellent web sites are available, even if most must be used used judiciously if a reader wants to avoid spoilers."

I agree that the original illustrations should definitely be posted as we get to the sections of the text where they were originally printed. Since it's only one set, I don't think they will be a distraction in the discussion thread, but if they become that, we can easily move them.

If there are other illustrations by later illustrators, they probably should be in a separate thread.

I'm hoping you will volunteer to find and post the illustrations as we get to them. [g] And if you find others, definitely bring them to our attention.

As to other resources, I'll post a resources thread, with a warning against spoilers.

The Nonesuch edition of the book contains all the original illustrations. They would, of course, have to be scanned to be posted.

You can download a quality e-version of Bleak House, including the Phiz illustrations, legal & free at MobileRead:

epub: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/show...
mobi: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/show...

Charles wrote: "The Nonesuch edition of the book contains all the original illustrations. They would, of course, have to be scanned to be posted."

Charles -- At least many can be found online. I haven't double-checked on all forty, but I suspect they can be found.

Everyman wrote: "...I'm hoping you will volunteer to find and post the illustrations as we get to them. [g] And if you find others, definitely bring them to our attention...."

I don't know how much I'll be able to be online for awhile, so I am hoping someone else might give a hand for Bleak House. I'll put up the links for sources of which I am aware in Background information.

Charles wrote: "Are we talking about the original illustrations, or all of them? What is it we would hope to learn? ..."

Charles -- I don't know an answer to your question as to what we would hope to learn, any more than I do for the text itself. But I did come across this interesting article this morning that suggests the kind of thematic match issues with the text at least one critic analyzed and observed about the Phiz illustrations. The article definitely has spoilers, so if you care, I would avoid reading before pretty much knowing the span of the entire plot. (On the other hand, if you don't mind spoilers, the article does give some insights for reading the text and observing the illustrations.)

(view spoiler)[http://www.victorianweb.org/victorian... (hide spoiler)]

Lily wrote: " interesting article this morning that suggests the kind of thematic match issues with the text at least one critic analyzed and observed about the Phiz illustrations. The article definitely has spoilers, so if you care, I would avoid reading before pretty much knowing the span of the entire plot. "

Interesting article. As for spoilers, I'm immune, having already read the book several times. The article does point to some issues which will have to be brought up eventually if several important and perhaps puzzling features of the book are to be discussed.I hope these will not be neglected at the end.

Charles wrote: "...As for spoilers, I'm immune, having already read the book several times...."

Charles -- I figured as much for you, but knew other readers better be alerted.

The article does point to some issues which will have to be brought up eventually if several important and perhaps puzzling features of the book are to be discussed.I hope these will not be neglected at the end.

Hope you will recognize what will be the appropriate points to raise the issues. I have not read the entire book -- but I basically am spoiler immune (except mysteries or perhaps a beach read) so I don't mind encountering tidbits like this. In fact, they often simply increase my awareness as I read. But, in this case, I'm not sure the issues can be raised much before the end, although you might be able to call attention to some of those "puzzling features" as we read, whereas I'm not sure I'll recognize them on my initial read.

Glad you found the article interesting. I wasn't sure it would be with your apparent background -- yes, I'm guessing a little bit.