Christian Fiction Devourers discussion

This thread is for aspiring/current authors to ask questions and get help with their writing.

Okay, so, I've always been a big fantasy nerd, so I want to write fantasy. I'm worried my book will seem cliche at the start (it won't by the end) aand people won't be interested in it as a result. However, I don't want to say WHY to anyone (or at leaast the general audience)

So my question is: how might I be able to avoid appearing cliche without spoiling what's yet to come?

Hunter (Totally NOT a communist ☭), King of Games. I'm a human and I have feelings that can be hurt, believe it or not. wrote: "Okay, so, I've always been a big fantasy nerd, so I want to write fantasy. I'm worried my book will seem cliche at the start (it won't by the end) aand people won't be interested in it as a result...."

If readers are expecting a cliche, and don't get it, it could be a good twist. The trick is to get them to not put the book down on the first page when they detect a cliche. So start with a minor cliche and blow it to smithereens in the first chapter.

Well, my big twist is that (this that I'm putting in spoiler is actually a major spoiler for the story and not me putting stuff in spoiler to be a dork, so take care if clicking!) (view spoiler)[ the orcs in my story are the good guys. trying to protect humans by warring against the king/emperor, who wants to kill most life to gain immortality. Most of the book will be about the war against the orcs as seen from the humans, who are misguided by their ruler by believe they're doing the right thing and putting down savages, when really they're killing innocent beings, but that's why I'm worried about it being seen as cliche: the good humans versus the bad orcs, akin to Tolkien. But if you were to read the whole book that would clearly not be the case. (hide spoiler)] The first chapter I think will be a family of orcs being executed for supposedly committing a crime, with the main protagonist overseeing the execution as a soldier in the army.

Hello all!!! I know I haven't been involved so much in this group lately. Its been a crazy few months and I'm trying to get back into some semblance of normalcy. I've been working more on my second book and I was hoping someone might have some advice. My book is taking place in Africa (currently) in the 1920's. Nigeria, and I'm not the greatest researcher...this is my first historical fiction and I feel like I have bitten off a little more than I can chew.
Anyone know of any sites or researching methods that might a help a little?

I hae the very first chapter of my story done. Would anyone like to read and critique it? I can share it on Google Docs.

Vickie wrote: "Hello all!!! I know I haven't been involved so much in this group lately. Its been a crazy few months and I'm trying to get back into some semblance of normalcy. I've been working more on my second..."

Hi Vickie,

I would think that since Nigeria was a British colony in the 1920's there would probably be a good number of records kept by either the British government or some other British group. I don't know any sites off-hand, but that could be a good place to start.

Hunter (Totally NOT a communist ☭), King of Games. I'm a human and I have feelings that can be hurt, believe it or not. wrote: "Well, my big twist is that (this that I'm putting in spoiler is actually a major spoiler for the story and not me putting stuff in spoiler to be a dork, so take care if clicking!) [spoilers removed..."

Hi Hunter,

I don't think your story sounds cliche at all. Tolkien's orcs were twisted, evil beings without an ounce of good in them, born from hate and malice. It sounds like your orcs are more civilized (i.e. a family getting executed - evil creatures don't have families!). The fact that most fantasy readers have grown up with the 'orc' characters being evil or bad is a stereotype you can use to your advantage, since their natural inclination would be to view the orcs as bad.

All in all your premise sounds awesome, like a thought-provoking moral high fantasy. Keep going with it and see where it goes!

Nice job taking a month to respond :p JK, it's not a big deal

But most people will probably pick it up, read some, see the orcs are the enemies of the humans and the main character is a human and put it down, thinking it's just another cliche story. My entire story rides on the fact that the roles are SWITCHED and it'll be revealed that way in some kind of plot twist, but from the start it'll appear to be the standard fantasy roles. That would bore or frustrate people so they wouldn't read it, not knowing what it's really about.

I'm going for a moral story. I'm hoping to write parallels between this and some of the issues in today's world, with close-mindedness, fear, hate and ignorance of people "not like us"

Hunter (Totally NOT a communist ☭), King of Games. I'm a human and I have feelings that can be hurt, believe it or not. wrote: "Nice job taking a month to respond :p JK, it's not a big deal

But most people will probably pick it up, read some, see the orcs are the enemies of the humans and the main character is a human and ..."

I mean, if you see it so negatively then I can understand your hesitation. However, don't forget that for every punk that picks it up and is like 'oh man this is stupid and cliche' there will probably be five more who are like 'interesting...humans carrying out an extermination of non-humans? This has some historical and Nazi-ish vibes and I would love to see where this goes!'

First rule to being an author: Write for yourself, and no one else. 'Cause if you don't like it, it's hard to get others to like it too.

This may not be the appropriate thread to discuss this, but when I was writing my book (which I won't plug here cause that would be shameless and I still have my dignity!) I found that a lot of the questions and doubts I had about my narrative was the Adversary trying to hold me back. If I was ever confused or hesitant, I found solace in just asking, "OK, God, is this the right direction?" A lot of times, he would be like "Yes." and I would roll with it, telling the Adversary to take a hike.

As authors, we are always worried that readers won't pick up our book or won't find it interesting, but you should still write the story that YOU want to write. Once it is out there, then at least the readers have a choice. All it takes is ONE person reading your book and telling their friends that 'Hey this book is awesome, the twist is great!' and BOOM, you have a growing audience.

We are not made for fear.

What if they see the Nazi vibe as cliche? Kidding again :D

I'd love to write for myself. I do it all the time but I write about some...not weird in the sense of like creepy and disturbing, but "Why did you focus on THAT?" stuff. Like in roleplays and movies and games and stuff, I love scenes where characters just go and do something leisurely. Even like shopping at a mall. For some reason I enjoy it. I enjoy making my characters walk around marketsquares and browse the inventory of the merchants. I like to have my characters in roleplay and video games dress up. I know not many people would be interested in those, so I try to not write about that. I know I should write for me, but if no one else would find it interesting, why waste my time?

Because you don't know if they will find it interesting or not. Things are only considered a waste of time if the end result is contrary to the expectations we have going in to it. So change your expectations.

I'm telling you, as an author who writes fantasy, I think your premise is interesting. There is a lot of promise there, and if you execute it well, you could have an awesome story on your hands. The internal struggle of the main character as he comes to grips with the reality he has been deceived on and the actions he has taken for his life, the suffering of the orcs as they attempt to save the people who are slaughtering and persecuting them, the Emperor/King revealing his true intentions and the inevitable showdown. It sounds awesome, dude.

Did you know it took Tolkien years to get The Lord of the Rings published? The publishers said it was too long and had to be cut down. Even now, there are people who believe that his story is overly wordy and unnecessary. But that is why I love it, because he put so much depth into the narrative that it envelopes you. I'm sure he had his doubtful days, but he kept going. And look what happened. We now have tropes about orcs in fantasy to debate on a Goodreads forum.

I have the first chapter in a Google Doc if you'd like to read and critique it. I'd need your gmail so I can share it with you, though.

That's another thing I'm worried about...the length. I fear it might be too long and possibly need extra books and people will see that as a cash grab, or too short because I don't focus on descriptions. I'm very blunt in my writing. I don't like overly long descriptions or scenes of irrelevance. If it doesn't advance the plot or give insight to some aspect of the story, be it characters, culture, whatever, I usually don't bother adding it. Does that make any sense?

Yeah. My first book was 150,000 words, which is about 80,000 more than the 'experts' suggested. Whatever. Molds are made to be broken and it is more fulfilling to do what YOU think is best rather than what you think others will like. Everyone has an opinion, and you won't be able to please everyone, so why bother worrying about it. Be yourself (even in your writings) and those who don't like who you are will go away and those who do like who you are will gravitate to you. There is nothing wrong with what you want to write (or who you are), just sounds like those you want to read it aren't the ones who should be.

You write that book, and I will read it. Your premise is awesome and deep and carries so much morality and humanity that I feel NOT reading your story would be a disservice to literature itself. If those around you don't see that, forget 'em. High school sucks, college is better, and once you're an adult there is so much you can offer the world that it will make your head spin. Trust me, I've been there too.

There, you have one fan! :)

I want my story to be of morality. The main character is a respected soldier in the military who would lay down his life for his nation. This isn't some LotR where an inexperienced sleepytown no one goes on a journey to defeat the evil dark lord with the menacing voice and black spiky armor of doom. I want there to be people who feel their cause is true no matter what and have been brainwashed through lies and propaganda. Yes, some people might be afraid to stand up because they might 'disappear', but I like stories better where the antagonists TRULY believe what they're doing is right and they're not doing whatever out of fear of punishment.


I meant would you like to read what I have so far? To give suggestions as to what my strong points are and what could use some improvement, etc.

Yeah man, send me what you have and I will be honest but edifying. Promise.

I'll need your email so I an share it

Oh, yeah. [email protected]

Hey, I read it and checked it out. There is a lot of potential there, like I thought, and I think you have a real gem on your hands. As I was reading it, I said "something isn't right, why is no one speaking out about this?" but mob-mentality of the humans was very clear. I would love to see more of the characters named, even the town, and more descriptions of each one. And good use on gender diversity, as an ignorant chauvinist I assumed that all of the soldiers were male but then saw that most of them used 'her' or 'she'. I like that.

And Tolkien's orcs were not nearly so well-spoken lol. Also, I believed the charges, albeit false, brought by the captain. That is how these things happen, with the state justifying its actions through falsehoods and misinformation.

Keep refining it and expanding on it. Have you written an outline? Even the most basic of outlines can help. Have you written descriptions of the characters? That, too, can help with consistency of voice and narrative. It took me almost 7 years to finish my first novel because I DIDN'T use those tools. Still did it, but just took a lot longer.

Really well done. I look forward to reading more of it. Don't stop writing! Use paper and pencil if you have to! Chisel and stone! Everyday!

I didn't think of naming those places because they're really for this one scene. Maybe I could come back to it as like an investigation and name it? IDK.

I was thinking about the use of genders in the world and I think maybe in this nation they're equal but in others they could be matriarchal/patriarchal. I'm going to try my best to avoid "homogeneous races" where everyone's the same of that race.

I have an extremely basic outline, basically all you know I know.

Thanks for your input. Now I have to figure out how to bridge major points...and what those major points will even be :D

And have fun with it, too. I try to when I write, though I can still spend a lot of time cussing at my book and flipping tables and such. Remember it's yours to mold, and I look forward to see what you do with it!

I'm happy to help. Let me know if you have any more questions!

How do you write the bridges between major events, if that makes any sense?

And by you I mean you, not a right or wrong way.

Well, it depends on what the events are. If it is travel between places, I may but in a blurb like "X miles later" or "It was a long journey, over wide plains and open skies, but three days later they came to the city" or something like that.

If it is like a personal development or a change in ideology, that can take place over the entire story or a paragraph, depending on how important it is or how you want to do it. Even something like "What he was going was for the good of humanity, and he knew it. Yet still, something, deep in the back of his mind, was stirring. Was it? Was it really for the good of humanity?" or something like that.

If it is external events, then the character can react to them. Like "He did not know what the Emperor was doing. Killing all the X? That made little sense" or something like that. Or "The Emperor was promoting him, but he was not as happy as he should be". I have found that using dialogue with supporting characters is the best way to flesh out the main characters feelings. And, as the author, you can always add and remove characters as you see fit.

Does that help? A lot of it depends on your personal style, and that becomes more clear the more you write.

I'm not really sure what you mean...but that's not really what I meant either :\ I meant like all the extra details that make movies and books longer. Like interactions with friends and family, training with allies,social events, etc. I don't want an uber book, but I wrote a chapter in like three pages. That's not a lot.

Oh ok. Nothing wrong with that, either. The lengths of your chapters is usually dictated by the idea you are conveying in the chapter. If you want to flesh out your chapters, then you can add descriptions about what's for sale in the market, or people Thedos notices in the crowd, or even descriptions of the orcs or soldiers, like what they are wearing, what Thedos thinks of them, or even how they fit in the world (ambitious, villainous, caring, etc). Really it's adding meat to the skeleton, and you can do so at your leisure.

What I would do, especially if embellishment is not your current forte, is write the skeleton first. Once it is written, you can go through and edit it, adding flesh to the proverbial bones. Are you writing it in third-person limited or omniscient? Either one presents unique opportunities for embellishment and description.

Limited. This is Thedos' story.

What are some opportunities I could do with either point of view? If that makes sense.

For limited, you are able to focus on just one character's viewpoint. That means that everything he feels and thinks you can write. From a dislike of killing or a fear of dogs or penchant for salted carnival pretzels, no matter how mundane.

For omniscient, you are able to show what everyone is thinking. The reader knows what's going on and spends time screaming at the pages "No! Don't go in there!" This also lets you flesh out things like how an orc feels about the violence or what the Emperor himself thinks about the whole thing.

It can be a hindrance, though, especially as you are writing a moral tale about Thedos. His growth and change is what is important. Limited is a good choice for this, as you can focus on the internal struggle on Thedos and the conflicting motivations within him.

Does that help?

Yes it does. If I do other works in this universe I might do omniscient, but this story of betrayal is about Thedos and his discovering that the nation he serves isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Yeah that's a perfect setup for limited. You'll be able to focus solely on Thedos then. Not gonna lie, I like your ambition! If I do other works in this universe I might do omniscient you said, and that's awesome! That's how I approached my book too, and it's always good to plan to keep writing.

One thing I really want to do is write one of those "guidebooks" that contains lots of lore. I won't add much in my book because most people probably don't care, but lore is one of my favorite parts of fiction. Most people probably won't care about Sunshoo, King of Sandtopia who started the War of 17 Horses 2,000 years ago, but if it's brought up, I want to know who Sunshoo was, what the kingdom of Sandtopia is/was like, what caused the War of 17 horses, who was involved, the battles and strategies, the politics, the technological advancements, how the war ended and how it changed the world.

Nice! That's the sort of thing that I want to do with mine, as well. For those fans that want more haha. No one event is a stand-alone in the world, everything effects everything else and stuff like this really details that out for people.

Exactly. Everything that happens affects everyone in some way

Hey y'all! I've got a conundrum: I don't know which story to work on! If you would like to vote on which story I should write next, please visit my blog and leave me a comment there with your choice. Thanks!

http://writingtoinspire.blogspot.com/...

Andrea, it wouldn't let me comment on the blog without creating a profile for blogspot. (I am following your blog now, though!) So, I'm going to just tell you here instead - my vote is for story number one. I'm already so intrigued by it!

Alex, did you try the Name/URL option? You don't have to leave a URL, only your name, but you shouldn't have to sign into Google or Blogspot in order to comment. I've got others who comment sometimes who don't have an account, and they've told me the Name/URL option works great for them. Would you mind trying again and letting me know if it works for you? If it doesn't, I can check into it.

Thanks for following my blog! I really appreciate that. I'm also intrigued by option #1. :)

Has anyone had experience selling your books to Half Price Books? I mean, as a consumer I've sold old books and periodicals there for years, but not as a writer marketing my work. I now have the chance to, as they have agreed to host a book signing for my debut novel that's just come out. However, one drawback is that when I do have copies sold there, it will be a total wash for me. The only way I will make a profit is by buying and selling copies directly to readers who come to my event. Otherwise, if sold in the stores on the shelf, Half Price is offering to sell them for me at a 20% off the list price, which is what I get the books for myself! And if I don't want to do that and/or if I want the books to be there on an ongoing basis, they will purchase the books from me at a low price and sell them at half their value if not a little less. Their recommendation is to provide them 10 copies to sell, and I'm able to do that at two separate locations. But I'm thinking I will scale that number back! I'm all for exposure, but I can't afford not to get ANY profits.

It's frustrating because so far I've not any other store in town agree to have my book on the shelf, so Half Price is it. I tried B&N thinking that since I do have a Nook version of my book, it would be welcomed, but no. They were extremely unfriendly at the local and national level, saying no to everything I asked. First, I asked if I could create my author profile, since Amazon has such a useful tool for authors and I was hoping to do something similar with B&N. they told me that was only for select authors who were top performing - and also I would not be able to track any of my sales for that same reason. Then, in the matter of my paperback, they told me I have to sell 100,000 in a year to even be considered. It was very deflating.

Has anyone dealt with Books a Million? Now that place was a whole lot friendlier to me, and the local manager was very happy to give me details on where to go to apply - BUT I read that I have to submit a nonreturnable copy of my book to them and wait. And if they say no, my book gets donated to what they send to the US troops. That part is pretty cool, but I'm going to have to wait to do that.

Ok, I have another question. So my publisher is smaller than the big kahunas, so that no wholesaler is involved - which means my work is print on demand only. I was told by a friend of mine who owns a locally children's book shop here in my town that I won't be able to market to any book stores if they can't purchase from a distributer who is a wholesaler, and they refrain from going to Amazon and very rarely work out a transaction with the author. Is that true???

Hi Natasha

Bookshops usually have books on sale or return, so they only want to deal with publishing companies who will take back unsold stock. Also, publishers will pay to have their author's books on more prominent shelves/spaces. We self published authors don't get any look in. Bookstores simply don't want to deal with us.

Hi Chrys. Well, I'm not self-published, though. It just happens to not be a big enough publisher that does advance royalties or any free books to me. But what you said does make sense, as far as being able to return books that go unsold. It's such a shame with how much of a dice roll it can be as a writer!

Interesting. I was once professionally published, and now I'm self published. I wrote about it here:

http://chryscymri.com/blog/from-tradi...

What do you gain from a small publisher, I ask? Do they do any marketing for you?

Aside from the publisher listing my book on Amazon and B&N and doing any edits and putting together the covers (I supplied the art), I'm pretty much in charge of marketing myself. I will check out your article!!

Fantastic article! I can relate to what you were saying (in other ways). Having written articles and blogs for several years on the side while I've had various office jobs, the opportunity to have a publisher interested in my work came up out of the blue. At the publisher's prompting, I submitted my manuscript, and she was eager to have it released. In the midst of all that, I gained some writing clients, but was downsized from my day job, so that I suddenly had basically peanuts for income and was still waiting on my book to release! It finally released a few weeks ago, but I quickly learned that I have more in common with all of you self-published authors, and have had to figure out things one step at a time. Some years back, I did self-publish a devotional, and in that I had been completely alone in everything for it. Not surprisingly, it didn't do so well. But having a publisher this time around has definitely saved me a lot of trouble on the front end. But apparently, that's all it has been good for. I don't knock it, I'm glad for the experience both ways so I can see which way I like better, but it has been stressful when what should be an exciting time for me - all because I'm mindful of bills that need to get paid. Meanwhile my hubby is telling me to be patient, that he's working out things so I can keep writing. But honestly, this week has been the hardest one ever because I feel like a dead weight financially and it hit me how my book isn't going to make a difference. Maybe after 5-10, then maybe so. But until then, it's made me question my sanity!!!

Hmm, what percentage of the royalties do you get? I assume the publisher is taking a goodly percentage?

The received wisdom is that you need to have at least seven books, so readers will go on to read more of your work. Have a read of my next blog, which is about my recent marketing attempts. I offered the first fantasy book in the series for free, and people have gone on to read buy/read the next two.

I get 20% for paperback and 40% for the e-book. I will bookmark you!!

That's not too bad, really.

I'm on Facebook as well as active here on Goodreads. I believe in writers helping writers!

Hunter (Totally NOT a communist ☭) wrote: "Okay, so, I've always been a big fantasy nerd, so I want to write fantasy. I'm worried my book will seem cliche at the start (it won't by the end) and people won't be interested in it as a result...."

Hunter, FIX the cliche part. If you KNOW it might turn off readers, fix it. Where do you open the curtain? Is it at a crisis? Is it with a bad decision that leads to a crisis? Fantasy is no different from other genres in that you NEED a great HOOK! You're a writer, come up with a new start if the one you have is cliche. Catch your readers, first sentence, first paragraph, first page! Don't give them the opportunity to get away!

I have a STORY & STYLE, The Craft of Writing Creative Fiction that has a chapter on raising the curtain. It's written in an easy to understand, conversational format with LOTS of examples. It's from what I learned going to weekly meetings of the DFW Writers' Workshop fifteen years. I have 29 titles published and a 70% 5-star / 20% 4-star average ranking across the board. I wrote it specifically to be a help to other writers. It has ALL 5-star reviews except for one 4-star :) Blessings!

Natasha wrote: "Has anyone had experience selling your books to Half Price Books? I mean, as a consumer I've sold old books and periodicals there for years, but not as a writer marketing my work. I now have the ch..."

Hi Natasha,
I had a successful book signing at Half-priced books. I carried in my own stock, sold my own books (they did not go through the HP cash registers), and did well. I thought the arrangement was the BEST. Happy to answer any questions regarding it. :)
Caryl

Hi Caryn!

Did you also let the store sell any copies for you after your signing? I'm prepared to do sales transactions at the time of the book signing but was also interested in having copies on the shelves for exposure, just wasn't crazy about having them sell for peanuts.

My apologies - I was trying to type Cary! Sorry about that. Wish I could fix my post now!!😮