Our Shared Shelf discussion

So like the title says, what if anything have you learned about yourself while being a part of this book club? Do you still feel that you are searching for your own identity when it pertains to gender equality or have you figured it out do to being a part of OSS? Has the group helped in educating and giving useful knowledge to your own beliefs or do you feel its still a process of learning at this point for you?

The reason why im curious is about a month ago i discovered where i am and who i am when it comes to gender equality. Although ive been a part of OSS since the beginning and generally spend most of my time reading other peoples opinions, articles, and experiences on here i often found myself at odds with some of the philosophies and people's approaches to gender equality. Obviously i engaged with OSS and the gender equality movement because of our fearless leader whom i respect immensely.

But over the course of the past few months i was starting to wonder just how much i had in common with not just her but feminists in general. Just some of the things that have been brought up and said in the name of feminism was starting to have a negative impact on me. Not just a supporter for gender equality but as a fan of Emma's. But, then something strange happened to me a few weeks back. Someone (cant remember the member's name) made a crucial point that i had somehow missed before and that was that feminism strives to focus on the inequalities and struggles of women.

Sure, thats obvious when it comes to the movement itself but for someone like me who definitely wants to be supportive in women's struggles i was just having a hard time finding my own place amongst it. What i realized though is that while i care about gender equality i actually care more about equality among everyone. So im actually a Egalitarian by definition and while i do hate labels if i had to have one that would be it.

This doesnt mean i dont understand why feminism exists because it certainly has its purpose but while feminism basically narrows it down to one scope of one particular gender i myself like to try and concentrate on everyone no matter race, sex, faith, etc. So bottom line is i have definitely learned something not only about myself but that i discovered this through reading and conversing with you all here and i do want to say thanks to that. I feel much better about where i am with my own identity when it comes to gender equality and how i fit in with my support of it.

So while im not a feminist (by definition) i am certainly confident that there is definitely some issues and viewpoints that we all agree with when it comes to gender equality and in the end that is the important part.

Anyhow, i am generally curious if any of you have had any kind of surprising revelations while being a part of this group. Do you think being a part of OSS has been as beneficial as i do?

I'm a new member to the group, and I'm 16 years old, And I definitely believe this group has brought out many feelings and and opinions on topics I never knew I would be so interested by and feel so passionate about.

OSS was and is a brilliant initiative, for me personally it has been an embodiment of becoming feminist. It started simply as I read the books and comments. My admiration for Emma grew as I better understood what she was up against and how unwittingly complicit I was in what she as a western woman was subject too; let alone the horror women endure from men in other parts of the world.

I have learned so much from many of the contributors on OSS. I do without reservation call myself a feminist I am of course still learning and know this is one of the best places for that helped in no small way by the truly remarkable woman guiding it.

I am thankful for it and her an believe I always shall be. We all have serious work to do and with OSS, HeforShe and the amazing UN Women we are getting it done.

This place helped me accept that I really am a feminist and that isn't going to change. I've also been able to tell others about this part of me and begin a conversation about what feminism really is, which has been brilliant. I've also learnt a lot from other people and countries/cultures which is also important. I'm really glad I joined this group. :)

How has OSS helped me find a place or identity when it comes to gender equality?

Well, to begin with, I now know I'm a feminist. I believe in the social, economic and political equality of the sexes, which is the dictionary definition of a feminist!
I'm writing this at three in the morning, so don't mind any grammar or spelling mistakes.
This group only fueled my admiration for our wonderful galleon figure, Emma, who fights right in the front. I really admire her for not acting in 2016 to concentrate on feminism and immerse herself within that lifestyle. That's COMMITMENT!
I have learned a lot about other countries, also languages ("to be silent like a grave" is not an English expression, who knew?)
Emma said in this lovely video, that she found her tribe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG5IL...
I'm quite sure I found mine too.

I wasn't really identifying as a feminist before OSS, and didn't tell the people I knew about me identifying as a feminist.
It also affected me because I, in retrospect, would like to dedicate my voluntary social year to HeforShe, because males have to choose between army and civilian service, and females don't have to do either one, in Austria. Which is unfair, and unfeministic in my opinion.

It also gives me a feeling of belonging, because I didn't have that feeling before, not in this way.
Every book has taught me something, either to become aware of issues, or how to work towards a goal (or not work towards a goal), to use in debate, and to help others out when I ship my copies to them.

I feel so connected to you, if there is one People I identify with, it's not the Austrian People, (although I always help my fellow Austrians when I can - otherwise I think I wouldn't be allowed to say I'm a feminist) but it's you: the feminist movement, who we have shining stars to look up to (from Gloria Steinem to Emma Watson to all the other people who wanted and want, tried and try to improve the life conditions of all people around the world), and we have a uniting belief system, and we know that we need each other, we can't improve matters alone, not as effective as in a group.

For me, feminism is about simply that: if you want to improve the conditions for humans, then you're a feminist. For me, this also includes mental health, LGBTQIA+ topics and able-topics, among others.

I've been here since the beginning, and have cheered on 10.000 members, and have cheered on 100.000 members and did so on 150.000 members (we could inhabit Salzburg, isn't that amazing, a whole CITY!), I have cheered at Emma announcing the new books and am eager for January/February already.


(Wow, I didn't intend to write a whole article on that)

Thanks for this thread James :-)
Although I believe you can be a feminist and an egalitarian... isn't intersectional feminism about taking all inequalities into account?

OSS made me realize I had to be more patient in feminism discussions. Not everyone has the same opinions and I can get quickly upset that people don't see *my* point (and I guess I can sound aggressive to some). I try to put myself in other people's shoes a bit more, and I'd say I acquired some more patience, that feels nice :-)

Laure wrote: "Thanks for this thread James :-)
Although I believe you can be a feminist and an egalitarian... isn't intersectional feminism about taking all inequalities into account?
"

I do think its possible to be all of the above as you mentioned however even though feminism is needed it also specifies on women specifically. Which is ok, again its needed and for people who want to call themselves feminists and focus mainly on women i totally get that. But it does create a problem for me in some cases where i feel it is starting to go to extremes and against my own ideals.

So to answer your question, i think you can certainly be everything you mentioned but i feel that egalitarian sums up best of how i approach gender equality without relying to heavily on one specific gender or race. The good thing for me is that while not really be a feminist by definition i can still read, learn, and observe other people's opinions, thoughts, and experiences on here.

Over the course of the few months that ive been here i at times kind of feel like my posts may have come across as combative or negative which truthfully was never my intention. But thats why it was kind of revelation of sorts that i realized that feminism is still about focusing on women in particular. Which is fine because feminism is needed but for myself i never wanted to focus just on on specific gender.

When Emma made her HeForShe speech i was happy that she invited men to participate and as with most of you all was quite excited about OSS. But as i read and learned from not only some of the books but through Emma's interviews and these discussions ive really come to the conclusion that while men are invited they are still technically sitting at the back of the bus.

Now, i say that playfully and not as an insult please believe me. The reality for me judging by what ive read and learned feminism is still very much a girls club and rightfully so. I now know and can distinguish between the ideals behind feminism focusing on women and of course something like egalitarian where it focuses on everyone.

At the end of the day i had to kind of find my place among the movement and where i was most comfortable within it. I hope that all made sense. lol

i'm a gay guy who is 53 yrs young does that even matter or concern anyone here?

James wrote: "white men at the back of the bus"

Well we have put plenty of others there have we not...

Men are wellcome to the feminist girls club just not allowed to run it, ever

I actually will throw a bit of a monkey wrench in here, just to be that guy.

I find actually, while the discussions are very stimulating and welcoming, I find there is a bit of a echo chamber effect. In part, I've become more aware of it because of how badly I misestimate it's effects in the American General Election, but for sure there is a bit of groupthink occurring here.

Some of the nuance and base generalizations are broken occasionally, like thorough having international discussions or discussions with people of different religious beliefs. But it still really heavily tends to Western Liberal feminism and I wish there was some easy way to foster a more diverse thinking.

Many of the books themselves, funny enough, do cater to that diversity. But some of the discussions, (I would guess due to demographics of Emma Watson fans) tend to lean one way.

Ross wrote: "James wrote: "white men at the back of the bus"

Well we have put plenty of others there have we not...

Men are wellcome to the feminist girls club just not allowed to run it, ever "

Well actually i said WHILE men, not WHITE men but you may have changed that on purpose. And yes, there have been others at the back of the bus but as i stated i made my comment in jest.

Winston, interesting view OSS is inclusive but it was founded and is run by a feminist. Who's liberal views many of us share not all of the members are fans of Emma Watson many are, myself included.

We make no apology for that or the content and purpose of Our Shared Shelf.

Ross wrote: "Winston, interesting view OSS is inclusive but it was founded and is run by a feminist. Who's liberal views many of us share not all of the members are fans of Emma Watson many are, myself included..."

And you shouldn't. But I think there has been historical examples (especially recently) that shows what happens when you build an echo chamber. It might be accidental (the discussion here is generally respectful of dissenting opinions.) but it narrows your views nonetheless.

HeForShe is built on the very idea of reach out actively to a person with a different view point and reconciling (not persuading or proving wrong) their view points with our own. I believe this is vitally important and should be emphasized. Otherwise, the other side will just not engage (except for the trolls) and no one actually gets anything discussed.

Winston, I disagree sharing views and opinions are important, change one mind and you can change the world. I was not a feminist before Emmas speeches to DAVOS and the UN. Anything is possible with an open mind.

However if you think as you do why are you on OSS now if you believe it serves no purpose. Also you talk of group think and echo chambers does that mean you have no one who agrees with you.

Can one lone voice with no support really can change anything.

What you call echo chamber I call agreement what you call group think I call cooperation

Woah, folks, this blew up here!

Interesting discussion, I must second Ross here because OSS is available for everyone who has internet and can speak English. Because of that, many Westerners are found here (no surprise), but we also have members from other parts of the world too, which I greatly appreciate.

Meelie wrote: "Firstly, hello, Eric!

Secondly - why should it be of concern?? This is meant to be a safe place for all to discuss the books read, there shouldn't be reason for anyone's sex/gender to be an issue..."
Thanks Meelie for once again stating that gender and age, among other boxes, aren't an obstacle here, they're here to enrich conversation.

Ross wrote: "Winston, I disagree sharing views and opinions are important, change one mind and you can change the world. I was not a feminist before Emmas speeches to DAVOS and the UN. Anything is possible with..."

Sorry, I got a little lost in your post. If I'm interpreting you correctly, you find value in collecting this group of likeminded individuals to share opinions and views on feminism and books. By collecting some sort of consensus, we're agreeing, cooperating. And then hopefully, we can then change the minds of other people and do good work.

Let me know if I got this wrong. But now I'll lay out my argument after I define echo chamber.

Echo chamber is where everyone in the space agrees with each other already and continues to discuss things. Everyone thinks everyone is on the same page, because you keep shouting your opinion and you keep reading the same opinions as your own, with relatively little deviation. For an extreme example to show the lesser examples, we don't have a Martian here so we're only talking about Earth related feminism. Similarly, for whatever groups we exclude, whether on purpose or by lack of representation, the chamber becomes smaller and echo's greater w/o being more inclusive BUT from inside the chamber, seems more in agreement, unaware of the outside. That's an echo chamber. Echoing the groups opinions but not reaching outside.

The reason, I think, this exists so much worse today than before is the internet means we can find groups formed around any opinion and filter out groups that don't share our opinions. I don't peruse http://freedomdaily.com/ or http://www.breitbart.com/ ever. But what happens? I just form opinions based on people who already agree with me and generalize the group that I don't interact with. The other side does exactly the same thing! We call them racists or misogynists, they call use Femi-Nazi's or elitists or whatever. No one's right, no one learns, everyone just gets deeper into their own chamber.

The result occurred to me personally when I was watching the election map. Not the state-wide one, but the county one. It's nearly entirely red. http://www.nytimes.com/elections/resu... And Hillary still won by 2million votes! There are lots of major issues here, gerrymandering and so forth. But this is one take away I had. We don't break our own echo chambers. I don't spend enough time actively listening to, talking to, and learning from people I don't agree with. But they are everywhere. They still are our (my) countrymen. and from the looks of it, they're winning.

Now I'm not saying the discussions here aren't good. The group here is definitely pretty diverse and inclusive. I've been pretty consistent in pointing that out. But I have to point out, if you think you're changing minds here that need to be change, you need to be more aware of the self selection bias of the group you're talking too. Getting agreement here isn't nearly the achievement you paint it to be when everyone listening is already thinking the same thing.

I'll go back to Emma's first HeForShe speech back in Sept 2014.

"How can we affect change in the world when only half of it is invited or feel welcome to participate in the conversation?"
http://www.unwomen.org/en/news/storie...

(side note, it's like the speech is cannon and I'm doing some sort of theory craft lol)

That's exactly the sediment I'm defending. You cannot think that speaking in a conversation that doesn't include those who don't agree with you helps. You have to actively extend the invitation to everyone. You have to listen before you talk. and you have to be aware of the self selection bias that exists, here and elsewhere.

Thanks for listening. This is the breaking of the echo chamber that I'm trying to do. I hope it inspires you to do the same.

Winston, Emma speech referred to the fact women are excluded from practical engagement in the world dominated by males. To include people in the discussion whose purpose is to stop you achieving the goal, in this case removing the bias against women then it would be counterintuitive at best counterproductive at worst.

Including opposing voices would if they are intent on preventing the change you are trying to effect would result in your echo chamber effect. The unscrupulous could even engineer it. Speaking hypothetically of course.

Ross, respectfully, I don't think you're reading to anything I'm saying so I'm withdrawing from discussion. You quieted the voice that disagrees with you, without actually changing anyone's mind or learning anything.

I am a big fan of OSS. I've learned a lot from it. I was not a feminist when I walked in the door but I am one now. I'll carry that forever, and never again let closed minded people get away with sexist comments without opposition. Being a feminist or an equalist(not sure the word you used earlier James) was always in me subconsciously but OSS has helped me make it a more active part of my life.

Probably should of said something earlier but figured a mod would step in but maybe they just havent been following this thread. Either way, if possible Ross/Winston could we keep this thread on topic and if you guys want to discuss the merits of the board itself can you use another topic or create one? I just dont want to have this thread hijacked anymore than it is at this point.

Thanks.


Robert: Equalist is probably just as good and a hell of a lot easier than saying egalitarian. lol

Robert, I'm curious about why you registered to OSS if you were not a feminist. What then attracted you to a feminist book club? (Emma Watson? the books? boredom?) Just being curious.
Anyway, great to read that OSS kind of convinced you, that's awesome! :-)

James, I suspect the moderators did not get involved sooner because the discussion was not off topic. My view of what OSS was differed from Winston.

You asked a question people answered if I have got that wrong it was not intentional.

Ross wrote: "James, I suspect the moderators did not get involved sooner because the discussion was not off topic. My view of what OSS was differed from Winstonsm

You asked a question people answered if I have..."

My question was more from an individual standpoint of how OSS has helped them personally. That was pretty explanatory in my initial post. While i think Winton has a valid and fair question i dont think it falls under what i intended for this thread.

So im am asking you respectfully to continue that particular discussion elsewhere if you dont mind. Again thanks.

James wrote: "So like the title says, what if anything have you learned about yourself while being a part of this book club? Do you still feel that you are searching for your own identity when it pertains to gen..."

James, I congratulate you on your development. It's heartwarming to read such a comment.
Emma sure does ignite some change, you're the best example.
I hope there are many more who'll find their place in this movement of ours.

MeerderWörter wrote: "James wrote: "So like the title says, what if anything have you learned about yourself while being a part of this book club? Do you still feel that you are searching for your own identity when it p..."

Thank you MW.

I hope to continue to learn from future discussions and books that have been beneficial to me so far in this club.

To be 100% honest...short answer...It was the first group I noticed when I started browsing GR Groups. That said though, I've always desired equality among gender, race, religion or whatever, I've just never educated myself about some of the issues. But there's a lot more reasons, for instance...why was I looking for a group on the first place? Answer...I'm a huge Introvert and I'm trying to change that. Example...I'm probably type any given message 4 or 5 times and delete them without ever posting in between actual posts because I don't think people would want to read what I'm thinking, Or I just cannot get out what I'm thinking...So I picked a group...OSS was it.

Partially because right up front it was welcoming to all genders, something that I'll be honest sort of suprised me at first ( I thought initially you had to be feminine to be a feminist(I know it's laughable now but I thought that) until I first heard the words He For She. I signed up for the He for she movement a while before coming to OSS. But that was a contributing factor as well.

It's the right thing to do.

I don't really like the world I'm living in. it makes me sad.

I also believe that things happen to people or people discover things that they need, as long as we're open to these things there's lots to learn.

so many reasons I looked in OSS'S door, I'm open minded and love books so it was easy to stick around.

Yup I'm huge fan of Emma Watson's movies (some of them anyway) but that's not why I'm here.

I truly believe at this point that if we can have equality among the genders then everything else will have fallen into place and we will also have achieved world peace, abolished hunger etx....We all just need to accept one another.


Sorry for the long answer? I have trouble giving half answers, this isn't even all of what in thinking lol.

Disclaimer: typed with a cell phone, please forgive typos.

Robert wrote: "To be 100% honest...short answer...It was the first group I noticed when I started browsing GR Groups. That said though, I've always desired equality among gender, race, religion or whatever, I've ..."

Robert, don't mind the long answer. It's always a pleasure for me to read people's comments, may they be short or long.

The longer you're here, the more you will learn. And no, I also had wrong assumptions about feminism in the first place, you're not alone.

Thanks Robert for the explanation!
Well, a lot of people do think that you have to be a woman to be a feminist - it kind of makes sense to assume that, because of the word itself (see the thread "Why are people turned off when they hear the word "feminism"?")
And as James said: as a man, it's not easy to find your place your place in the feminist movement. Men are indeed not expected to drive the bus of feminism ;-)

@Laure. Agreed.

well it looks like we veered off topic for a little while here but I think this thread is the most interesting one I've read on OSS on a while. It's been really interesting hearing how everyone has grown and I think this has been the biggest accomplishment of OSS.

The past year has been an incredible ride and I've learned so much from the books Emma has so carefully selected. There were a few I just couldn't connect with but most have been incredibly eye-opening and wonderful to read. I am definitely a more confident feminist than ever before, I feel better able to defend EVERYONE from gender discrimination and I feel less frustrated with the obstacles we still face in society because of gender discrimination. I am also better able to see the side-effects of gender inequality and how it infiltrates everything we do, from toys to ads to everyday conversations. It has truly changed who I am and I am thankful to Emma for that.