Our Shared Shelf discussion

That is a wonderful post to read!

So good! So so so good! Thank you!

At school, I told a classmate about what he said about "man up" and he just shrugged it off when I started saying a lot about this situation and he said it's "just a phrase" and I said it was sexist, and of course, the moron couldn't comprehend

Ryan wrote: "1. F*ck you.

2. If you want to question my masculinity, like a schoolyard circle of curses, like a swordfight with light saber erections, save your breath. Because contrary to what you may believe..."

brilliant! well done!

Interesting, but may be too wordy for a quick comeback

Compare the length of our chains ... this is the best "ten things" list I have read in a long while...

What overwhelms me most about this post is that a man was comfortable enough in his masculinity, comfortable enough to embrace his emotions and, comfortable enough to be vulnerable sometimes and still not feel ashamed or weakened by it to feel the need to "man up", that he took offense at such a "phrase". As a woman, it makes me proud to know that such men exist. Thank you for sharing this amazing piece of work!

Ishita wrote: "What overwhelms me most about this post is that a man was comfortable enough in his masculinity, comfortable enough to embrace his emotions and, comfortable enough to be vulnerable sometimes and st..."

I can only itinerate what you already said!

I always thought "Man Up" meant just pull through with something and place aside current issues/problems. When my dad used to tell me this, it was with emotion, passion and love. Maybe men just use the word differently amongst each other.

Would "Women Up" be a derogatory term?

Still love it though and I understand what it is going against! I agree with all of it, wish I could have been able to express more of myself as a child, still trying to catch back up.

I mean, ofc it could be used in the way your father used it. But it rarely is, if ever. I've been asked a million times to "grow a pair" or instigated by someone who said "you don't have the ba**s to do it". And I was pissed. And I was offended. Coz yeah, I don't. I don't have the ba**s to do it coz I'm not a man. And I don't need to have a pair to do something you don't think I'm strong enough to do.

Why do we always ask someone to "man up" when they have to do something daring but we ask them to "stop crying like a woman" when they complain or fall weak?

It's not your fault you didn't take offense when you didn't because ever since we're small kids we're taught that girls need to be delicate and boys tough. People do it so often that they don't even realize they're doing it anymore! But the times are changing and it's about time that "phrases" like these are revisited.

The whole "grow some balls" issue is wrong on so many levels, so cissexist, heterosexist...
I can't itinerate how much I love the responses in the first post. Sassy:)

@ Ishita
I understand what you mean completely.

Someone telling you to "grow a pair" is like telling a man to "grow ovaries"... It doesn't make any sense and it is something impossible... Very rude of these men, they probably have some issues with who they are themselves.

It is the same thing when women try to compare me to a dog saying I am some animalistic simplistic creature. (Since some don't think I express enough oompf in my tears)

Families have been ruined for a while now saying and teaching inaccurate things. Hopefully, this will be analyzed and worked on in the future... but I think media, movies, and shows are doing a wonderful job at pointing these things out. Otherwise.... it would nearly be impossible.

I just know my children (whenever that may be) will be able to dress themselves and express their inner desires, and know that they can be who they want to be.

Ryan wrote: "On some level, I believe every man understands the fundamental concept of what the phrase "man up" means.

The idea that you need to be strong and immovable object, a person with the emotional end..."

Ryan, I really agree with your last line!
The thing about "man up" that also gives me the itchies is that it's centering around men, and you really can't use it for everyone not-man, in my opinion, and it is really exclusive therefore.

Yeah I think it has been taken out of context and then pressed on younger generations for a while. Not sure how manning up in reality means to be immovable or not emotional. I don't think that is what it should mean anyway, men are human, men aren't naturally born to be immovable or emotionless.

Maybe we should just change the phrase and the meaning of it, to what it could mean instead of allowing people to change it something negative.

Maybe "human up" is a better alternative? Personally the words has a positive and loving meaning, to be a man meaning to get through the tough times allowing yourself to show emotions and expressions.... so it is hard for me to accept the negative aspect of this.

Do really most people think that is what the term means? If so I am very sad.... my dad used to tell me this all the time... but he didn't mean it to be ignorant or emotionless... so confused at the moment.

Indeed I have heard such phrases as "don't be a pussy", which I honestly did as well didn't really like. What does that even mean? Aren't women humans? What does a sexual organ have to do with anything at all?

I must be really weird... now I am doubting other words that could be a great influence on me since I have been a child, actually could cause others pain...

I have heard "such a pussy" already, but I have thick skin, it didn't affect me, really.

Now, "human up" sounds great! Includes everyone, we'd only need to change the meaning. To shut down your emotions is not something worth recommending...

@MeerderWoerter I agree shutting down emotions is never something worth recommending (unless it creates a terrible cycle of bad emotions, but that is getting specific again)

@ Everyone else

Now this has me questioning:

Does anything with "man" automatically mean masculinity? Or Ignorance? Or Emotionless? Or Immovable? Or Hatred? Or Corrupt?

Sigh I always thought the word "man" just means another form of human being, nothing more... "woman" just also should mean another form of human being... we are all humans aren't we?

Utterly confused at the moment with these things...

How wrong one can be :(

Eternal wrote: "@MeerderWoerter I agree shutting down emotions is never something worth recommending (unless it creates a terrible cycle of bad emotions, but that is getting specific again)

@ Everyone else

Now t..."

I definitely agree with you on shutting down emotions, you have to work that out, and not just shut it down, then it only becomes worse afterwards.

"Man" and "Woman" for me are social constructs, a "gender role", so, ah, I don't know why we have to force ourselves into those boxes.

So what does "Human up" then stand for exactly? Maybe we should all together come up with a definition? :)

I have enough definitely used "woman up" and "grow some ovaries" and no one has looked at me strangely. the typical context is when someone is prevaricating about handling a problem at work. I typically will accept worrying for about ten minutes, but once it turns from productive venting/advice seeking to avoidance and whining I'll tell the person in question to woman up and go talk to whoever it is that is upsetting them.

@Corey Exactly! I agree with what you said 100%

@Ryan I agree with your stance as well! A few days ago I saw a video with Storks and the boy automatically was given a football helmet and shoulder pads. I remember standing up and yelling bullshit as my parents watched me go on a rant (I think they know what I mean haha). Does that maybe fit with what you were talking more about?

So I think that there are almost 'demanding' terms which could hurt those that feel that it is oppressing them in some way.

It is tough to know when something shouldn't matter and when it should.
Most stuff I just let go past me, since I really don't care what others think about me, but then there are small things that just push my buttons more than other people.

Maybe the tone of saying these things also emphasize on whether the person means it negatively or positively. Also knowing the person who says it probably helps as well.

Eternal wrote: "@ Ishita
I understand what you mean completely.

Someone telling you to "grow a pair" is like telling a man to "grow ovaries"... It doesn't make any sense and it is something impossible... Very ru..."

Not to go on the defense but, I think when women compare men to dogs they usually do it in a state of hurt. I agree it's derogatory to a man to be generalized like that but it is a different issue. Generalizing someone and asking them to be someone they're not are two different things. So while I agree with what you're trying to say there, I don't agree that it's the same thing.

It's safe to say that the coming generation would be a lot more confident about themselves and free :)

@Ryan, I absolutely agree.

It's not only the gender implication but also the gender restrain and the gender pressure. If it is so offensive to a woman, it is also super unfair to men. I understand the pressure you're talking about. I might not exactly capture how it feels but I sympathize. It's not only unfair but at some level, I feel, it's also damaging (and I've seen to what extend) to a man to be questioned about his masculinity just because all he needs sometimes is a hug and an emotional outlet. We as women understand what "man up" is trying to imply, but it is just as derogatory to us to be told that just because we don't have a pair we're somehow less than about 50% of the population. It's disrespectful to us even when you so much as even think that because we're women we're not strong enough, if at all.

@Eternal, that is a beautiful concept. The thing about the phrase is that it has been embedded in people's mind for such a long time now and the negative implications have become such a part of the phrase, that hardly anyone thinks of the man in the phrase as a human. For them man is a chromosome arrangement of X and Y with a pair who is not supposed to show weakness. The idea is so deeply embossed in their conscience that they don't even realize when they're subconsciously insinuating it. If you had a dad who was above this, you were very lucky growing up to have such a role model to look up to.



I don't even understand the implication of "don't be a pussy". You think it's easy to be a pussy? Do you have any idea what a "pussy" has to tolerate in a lifetime? If you did, you wouldn't be using it as a synonym for weakness, let me tell you that! It's not about having a thick skin to not be offended by it. It's about being comfortable in your own skin to not feel the need to demoralize others to feel good about yourself.

And honestly, I don't think it was until the gender of a human became so important to them that they started using phrases like these. Man simply started as an abbreviation to human but it's sad to see what it's come down to.

Ishita wrote: "I don't even understand the implication of "don't be a pussy". You think it's easy to be a pussy? Do you have any idea what a "pussy" has to tolerate in a lifetime? If you did, you wouldn't be using it as a synonym for weakness, let me tell you that! It's not about having a thick skin to not be offended by it. It's about being comfortable in your own skin to not feel the need to demoralize others to feel good about yourself..."

Uh, do you address me in this?
I don't know, it simply doesn't affect me. But then I'm not affected by gender-specific insults, really.
And I do know what pussies have to go through! Some more than others.
I still have the theory that "man" is an old word for "human", for that would go the same line as it does in German.

Ishita wrote: "I don't even understand the implication of "don't be a pussy". You think it's easy to be a pussy? Do you have any idea what a "pussy" has to tolerate in a lifetime?"

Seeing how the "pussy" in question is more likely not meant to be a cat (don't laugh, as an innocent youngster I did think that, and wonder why you shouldn't be a pussy), I would class that around the same line of stupidity as saying that "no cock is so hard as life".

Language insults in particular are a good barometer of where gender equality is on a cultural level. It can also be used as a tool to adjust attitudes. If people stop using male parts as symbols of strength and female parts as weakness things would rapidly improve.

Simply thinking about what we say can change the world.

Ross wrote: "Language insults in particular are a good barometer of where gender equality is on a cultural level. It can also be used as a tool to adjust attitudes. If people stop using male parts as symbols of..."
I completey agree with you, but I fear in Austria we have to go a long way until we are at the point where I want us to be.

Gerd wrote: "Ishita wrote: "I don't even understand the implication of "don't be a pussy". You think it's easy to be a pussy? Do you have any idea what a "pussy" has to tolerate in a lifetime?"

Seeing how the ..."

Don't tell me THAT is a saying in English or German!? That is so rude, and insensitive. I haven't come across it yet, I hope I never will.

Or you do hear it in German, sometimes, but I'm really not sure what the hell it is exactly meant to express - but then I try not to linger too much on stupid sexual euphemisms.

Gerd wrote: "Or you do hear it in German, sometimes, but I'm really not sure what the hell it is exactly meant to express - but then I try not to linger too much on stupid sexual euphemisms."

I'm wondering about that too, but I'd rather not know. We don't have to elaborate on everything. As you said, sexual euphemisms, and therefore really not worth giving a damn about it, other than not to use it, and tell other people not to use it!

@meerder no that wasn't directed at you. It was a general expression of what I felt. I thought I left enough space so as to not confuse anyone. I'm sorry, it was not my intention. I hope I didn't offend you, I'm sorry :)

@Gerd oh gosh, I really hope that's not actually what people say! That's the most absurd euphemism I've heard yet.

Ishita wrote: "@meerder no that wasn't directed at you. It was a general expression of what I felt. I thought I left enough space so as to not confuse anyone. I'm sorry, it was not my intention. I hope I didn't o..."

No, you didn't offend me:)
I was just confused because it sounded like an answer to what I wrote!

@Ishta

Good point! Then I will continue to add humanity to the word "man" like my Dad ;)

But isn't "Man" and "Woman" similar to "Different kind of Feminist" and "Different kind of Feminist"?

Both are Human and both are Feminist, but they have their differences...

@Eternal, exactly my point. Both the genders have their own traits and personalities and both are unique. Feminism is not about bashing down men to make the women look stronger. No. Feminism is more about gender equality but I guess the term was coined this way because it started as a movement to encourage women to start standing up for themselves back in an era where both the sexes were oblivious to the importance of that. But while Feminism might still seem to be this exclusive all female's club, I think the concept and idea of it has evolved overtime as people have started to realize that it's not okay to talk someone down to make someone else seem empowered.

@Ishita I understand what you mean :)

just wanted to jump in and let everyone know that this is from an awesome slam poem
https://youtu.be/QFoBaTkPgco
I encourage you to go watch it :)

I hate the phrase man up, since when did emotions become "un manly". crying doesn't make you a girl.... crying makes you human and if I'm not mistaken men are human too!

I have been terribly behind on OSS lately, so I would just like to join to the group in saying that this post is pretty well written and all around awesome. Also, Ryan, I am so glad to see you back here, too. :)

The only thing I would disagree with is this:

Because women and the women’s movement figured out a long time ago that being directly, explicitly ordered around by commercials, magazines, and music is dehumanizing.

Unfortunately, I do not believe this to be true. Otherwise we wouldn't have the edited waste of paper known as Cosmopolitan, Glamour and other mainstream magazines marketed towards women. Women are still very much subject to the influence of commercials, magazines and other stuff.

What is being a man, anyway? This is the reason why I am getting more and more into the genderless approach when writing fiction. Because I want to detach myself from this whole toxic culture of the masculine and the feminine. The fact that many of those bullet points listed in order to tell each gender apart are 'true' is not because they intrinsically are, but rather because we insist on being stuck in wrong, harmful conceptions.

To be honest, I don't even enjoy the 'damn, she's got ovaries' expression. How about we just don't associate personality traits with genitalia and reproductive organs. How about someone just being courageous, brave, sensible, etc.? Would it kill us all to slowly change our use of language? Because it does bear a great influence on our minds, irregardless of what we may think.

Ana wrote: "I have been terribly behind on OSS lately, so I would just like to join to the group in saying that this post is pretty well written and all around awesome. Also, Ryan, I am so glad to see you back..."

It's great to see you again too, Ana! And I would agree with you in that we both disagree on the "Because women and the women’s movement figured out a long time ago that being directly, explicitly ordered around by commercials, magazines, and music is dehumanizing."
Maybe the women's movement did, but definitely not women as a whole, as sad as that is.