SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I have been listening to the audio book of Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison for weeks, or maybe a month. It's read by Joe Morton and it's compelling, but at the same time, it's very hard to take, too. I found a copy of the book in paperback, in my own books, now I'm reading ahead, as well as listening.

I also just bought and started Bannerless by Carrie Vaughn, a post- apocalyptic mystery novel that is so post, the characters haven't told this reader (by page 85) what made their society essentially agrarian.

I now reading The Late Show by Michael Connelly. It's the first book in a new series by him - featuring a female protagonist this time.

Veronica wrote: "I now reading The Late Show by Michael Connelly. It's the first book in a new series by him - featuring a female protagonist this time."

On the Writing Excuses podcast this week they referenced Connelly as an excellent writer of police procedurals, so this is a bit of synchronicity. Is this a standard cop story or is it also SF?

Trike wrote: "On the Writing Excuses podcast this week they referenced Connelly as an excellent writer of police procedurals, so this is a bit of synchronicity. Is this a standard cop story or is it also SF? "

Standard police detective story. As far as I know, Connelly has never written a book with SF elements in it.

I finished The Obelisk Gate and very much enjoyed it. It isn't as mind-bending (or earth-shattering, if you'll excuse the wordplay) as the first one, but it's a solid read and we learn a lot more about the world. Definitely worth it if you liked The Fifth Season.

I am almost done with A Wizard of Earthsea on audio. I'm finding it charming, if a little bit dark for what is ostensibly meant for middle grade readers. I am getting a strong sense that Patrick Rothfuss is a big Le Guin fan, and I don't blame him.

I've just started Too Like the Lightning (I feel like such a company man this month, reading all our books!) and so far I quite enjoy it. It seems most people know by 25% if it's for them or not. I'm not quite there, but so far I love the conceit and the mysteries presented. I'm a little perplexed still to find this is sci fi, but I'm sure I'll see what keeps it on that side of the fence in short order.

Do Androids Dream and now a re-read of A Wrinkle In Time thanks to the trailer hype are up next.

I am reading The Book of the Unnamed Midwife

I just finished The Once and Future King, and I don't get why it's so loved. It started off fun and whimsical and then descended into boredom and whining.

Moved on to Kiln People now which is already way more fun.

I'm reading Neuromancer... well, I'm listening to it in my car, and well... I find I space out quite a bit. Not sure if it's the reader, or the book. I'm a bit disappointed! I wanted to love it.

Kim wrote: "I just finished The Once and Future King, and I don't get why it's so loved. It started off fun and whimsical and then descended into boredom and whining.

Moved on to [book:Kiln Peopl..."

Bummer! Glad you persisted, and that you're back to enjoying other books. OaFK is full of small truths and descriptions that I find myself thinking about just about every day. The end is definitely a hairpin turn down a place nowhere good compared to the way it starts. Such is the nature of a tragedy though, I suppose.

Vanessa wrote: "I'm reading Neuromancer... well, I'm listening to it in my car, and well... I find I space out quite a bit. Not sure if it's the reader, or the book. I'm a bit disappointed! I wanted to love it."

Don't feel bad. I had much the same experience and found it a bit overrated.

I feel so much better about myself now. Neuromancer was so not my bag and I felt like there was something wrong with me because I didn't love it.

I am reading Traitor's Blade by Sebastian de Castell. It is alright. I will probably try the next book in the series. Next I am going to retry Robbin Hobb's Assissins Apprentice since I keep hearing really great things about it and all the Farseer books.

I finished A Man of Shadows by Jeff Noon. My review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I agree with Rob that the first 3 books in A Song Of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF) are quite good with #2 and #3 some of the best fantasy I've ever read.

HeyT wrote: "I feel so much better about myself now. Neuromancer was so not my bag and I felt like there was something wrong with me because I didn't love it."

I love Neuromancer, but don't feel bad if you don't like it. It's definitely not for everyone. I think at the time it was written it was pretty cutting edge but now it's a bit dated. I also don't think it would lend itself well to being an audiobook, but I've never listened to it so can't say for sure.

Daniel wrote: "Hey everyone
I've been reading a lot of diverse stuff this year, but Isaac Asimov books have easily become the biggest focus for me so far. Just finished the Foundation Trilogy and I, Robot. Is th..."

The Caves of Steel is another one you might like. And his classic novelette, Nightfall.

Michele wrote: "I see the blurb compares him to Algernon Blackwood or Arthur Machen. Would you agree"

Not at all - I think the blurb writer doesn't know any modern supernatural/horror writers!

Another catchup of what I've been reading:
Sebastian Faulks' Charlotte Gray - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2053681886.
The Little Friend by Donna Tartt - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2062140806.
A re-read of Louise Cooper's Lord Of No Time and review - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/1422905458.
Re-read of book 1 of Louise Cooper's Time Master series, The Initiate which I reviewed https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2064525583

Randy wrote: "I love Neuromancer, but don't feel bad if you don't like it. It's definitely not for everyone. I think at the time it was written it was pretty cutting edge but now it's a bit dated. I also don't think it would lend itself well to being an audiobook, but I've never listened to it so can't say for sure."

I agree. In its day Neuromancer was totally cutting edge - in fact ahead of its time. An exciting and challenging and really different read. But I haven't read it for quite a few years and I imagine it would feel pretty dated now. The world, and popular culture, have changed so much since then.

But still, it's worth reading these kinds of books IMO, because books such as this were 'firsts', and have influenced so many others. It's good to see the original, so to speak. Like, the book of 1984, the film of 2001: A Space Odyssey etc. There are a few entities that made a huge impact on sci-fi, and to me, Neuromancer is one of them.

For fantasy, books such as Lord Of The Rings, A Wizard Of Earthsea, McCaffrey's Dragonflight, (although arguably that one is really sci-fi) have also had a huge influence on subsequent writers, filmmakers etc.

Michele wrote: "Holly wrote: "Currently reading Candlenight by Phil Rickman. This is the third of his pagan magic themed books for me; I still have a couple to go. Rickman is one of..."

I would say Rickman was heavily inspired by both of those authors; his themes of magic and horror usually revolve around the powers of nature. His writing style is thoroughly modern, though, so people who struggle with Machen will have no trouble reading Rickman.

Sorry about the delayed response.......just got back home.

Jan130 wrote: "McCaffrey's Dragonflight, (although arguably that one is really sci-fi)"

Nah. It's Fantasy.

It's important to read because, along with Dune, it was one of the first books to make the NYT best seller list while being specifically labeled a genre work, which used to be anathema to such lists guarded zealously by pretentious defenders of literature.

I just started The Green Man: Tales from the Mythic Forest another anthology by Ellen Datlow (Editor) and Terri Windling

another one bites the dust from my tbr list.

Mccaffreys books might be some of the first That are sci-fi disguised as fantasy? Although I think you don't find out the how's and whys until later so maybe that spoiler-y

Rachel wrote: "Mccaffreys books might be some of the first That are sci-fi disguised as fantasy? Although I think you don't find out the how's and whys until later so maybe that spoiler-y"

I agree with technically sci-fi :) And it would be spoilery to explain. :) I had the privilege a number of years ago of hearing a talk from Anne McCaffrey - in person - and she said they are all sci-fi and that she didn't understand why people classify them as fantasy, that maybe its the dragons.
Either way - wonderful books and some of the first genre I read and the very first that I bought even though I'd already read them from the public library. Spent my carefully saved birthday and Christmas money :)

Carro wrote: "Rachel wrote: "Mccaffreys books might be some of the first That are sci-fi disguised as fantasy? Although I think you don't find out the how's and whys until later so maybe that spoiler-y"

I agree with technically sci-fi :) And it would be spoilery to explain. :) I had the privilege a number of years ago of hearing a talk from Anne McCaffrey - in person - and she said they are all sci-fi and that she didn't understand why people classify them as fantasy, that maybe its the dragons.
Either way - wonderful books and some of the first genre I read and the very first that I bought even though I'd already read them from the public library. Spent my carefully saved birthday and Christmas money :) "

They're classified as Fantasy because they include impossible things. If you violate the laws of nature and break the rules of physics, you are perforce telling a Fantasy story. It doesn't matter if the story also features tech gadgets or a sci-fi backstory, supernatural goings-on are in the realm of Fantasy, not Science Fiction.

This is not a judgement of the story's quality. I love the Dragonriders books, and The White Dragon is one of my favorite novels of all time. If forced to only read 5 books for the rest of my life, the tale of Jaxom and Ruth would be the first one I reached for.

But in terms of classification, I prefer to put things in their proper place. The dragons can do all sorts of things which are simply impossible. Even if you grant the telepathy (which shouldn't be allowed, but pretend it is), the fact that the dragons can teleport not just through space but also through time just by wanting to is patently ridiculous. It's just not possible. Aside from that, we know how animals fly and the dragons as described can not fly as described. They're too heavy and their wings are too small to get themselves off the ground, nevermind with a rider (or, in some cases, multiple passengers) as well bags full of rocks.

So technically these are Fantasy, despite McCaffrey's assertions otherwise. Star Wars is more science fictional than Pern, and no one regards that as SF. Pern is the same sort of Planetary Romance as Burroughs' Barsoom; having 1% more tech stuff doesn't change that.

Based on that analysis most classic science fiction is also really fantasy as any FTL drive would have to be considered fantasy (with the exception of the Deaths End Trilogy)

In any case my formative years were dominated by Lessa and F'lar and Menolly. I believe I still have every book McCaffreys written (alone anyway - I lost interest when her son started- it just isn't canon for me).

Short Stories by Neil Gaiman.

Rachel wrote: "Based on that analysis most classic science fiction is also really fantasy as any FTL drive would have to be considered fantasy (with the exception of the Deaths End Trilogy)"

Anything that knowingly violates natural law when it was written, such as Star Trek or Star Wars, certainly is Fantasy. If they didn't know at the time that they were breaking rules (or there were rules which hadn't been discovered yet), such as most of the stuff by H.G. Wells, or 1980s stories about nanotechnology, then they get a pass. If science/technology has since surpassed what was in the story, as has happened to both 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea and The Hunt for Red October, then they get grandfathered in, because they were Science Fiction at the time they were written.

And again, because whenever I say this sort of thing people tend to lose their minds, none of this is commentary on quality. It's just classifying things on a technical level. And no, I don't get upset when people call Star Trek or Star Wars Science Fiction; there's a difference between how ordinary people classify things and those of us who are interested in this thin slice of scholarship, which is admittedly nitpicky and of no interest to anyone outside these discussions.

If you like X-Files, I highly recommend listening to The X-Files: Cold Cases. Got it yesterday and gobbled it up. It's very well done and a full production with vocal actors & effects. I wasn't expecting much but entertainment but it actually answered some questions I had about the series and brought back a bunch of well known characters.

why must we separate a book into sci fi and fantasy. Maybe there are extremes in both genre but many of the good ones overlap.

I mean when they talk about space drives faster than light mmmm sci fi or fantasy? The dragons in Anne McCaffrey's book where genetic changes but where did the telepathy come from?

Lets just say a good book in sci fi / fantasy mmm sci fi fant

Kateb wrote: "why must we separate a book into sci fi and fantasy. Maybe there are extremes in both genre but many of the good ones overlap.

I mean when they talk about space drives faster than light mmmm sci ..."

Because humans naturally categorize things. It helps us organize the world.

On a more immediate level, it helps us find things we like. Which is important, in my opinion.

I mean, why do you belong in the SciFi and Fantasy book club if genre doesn't matter to you? War and Peace, Pride and Prejudice, First and Last Men... they're all the same, yes? Except they *are* different. Just as Dragonquest is different from Tau Zero or Lord of the Rings.

And that is why we define genres.

Y'all, we chose some crazy @#$ books this month. One written largely in second person about magicking the moon, and one written with nods to ...I think six languages and IM speak with an 1800's English veneer about the 2400s.

This was a great reading month! Again! Again!

Trike wrote: "Rachel wrote: "Based on that analysis most classic science fiction is also really fantasy as any FTL drive would have to be considered fantasy..."

Anything that knowingly violates natural law when it was written, such as Star Trek or Star Wars, certainly is Fantasy."

I think many a science fiction author would agree that you can still be science fiction if you only "end run" the laws, such as ways to travel that skip past the actual light-speed barrier.

Could we get back on topic, please? What is everyone reading?

I try to sample 15-20 min of any audiobook that I get to make sure it's something I want to listen to. My latest grab is Ascend Online. I'm a little over 10% into the story. I think the fact that I used to game makes me more suspectable to trying out these LitRPG types. =)

Luke Daniels is the narrator and he's doing a great job! I grinned several times but I laughed when Daniels actually giggled to act out the story. It was quickly followed up by a yelp of pain because the dude entered the game & was immediately attacked while admiring his rusty sword. Bwahaha-

The story is set in the semi-future and based on a full immersive VR game by using nanites. No guarantee on excellence but I am totally amused and entertained by the start. =)

This morning I finished The X-Craft Raid, a story of hastily-built midget submarines going up against one of the most powerful Nazi battleships during WW II. A really great true story. My review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Currently reading Elantris by Brandon Sanderson. I'm about 110 pages in and so far it's a pretty tedious bog-standard Fantasy book.

Also dipping into the short story collection Eclipse Phase: After The Fall about post-Singularity transhumanism. The quality of the stories is inconsistent.

I'm currently reading Raven Strategem

I'm finishing up Memory,Sorrow, and Thorn series by Tad Williams. Just recently finished To Green Angel Tower, Part 1, and started Part 2.

Reading The Emperor's Edge by Lindsey Buroker. Maybe 10% in at the moment.

It's a steampunkish story, and I quite like the protagonist (and those she interact with seem nicely three-dimensional). So far, it's a light but engaging read.

I'm three chapters into The Casual Vacancy by J.K. Rowling. Don't think I can finish it.

Since my last post, I finished up the last three books of the Temeraire series. I thought it was a light, fun series that was written consistently well. It wasn’t particularly deep, intricate, or twisty, but I still enjoyed it a lot.

Here are my reviews of the last three books::
Book 7 – Crucible of Gold
Book 8 – Blood of Tyrants
Book 9 – League of Dragons (This is more of a general, spoiler-free review of the whole series than anything.)

This morning I started Weaveworld by Clive Barker. I haven’t had time to read too much of it yet, but it started off really interesting and so far I like the writing style. I have to fly out on business today, so I’ll get more time to read it during the flight.

I just finished the Kushiel's Legacy trilogy. It was really disappointing. I mean, I really liked the first 75 percent or so of the first book Kushiel's Dart. The second book was a major disaster in my opinion. I skimmed through the third one to see how it all ended. All in all, it was like having a bad taste in the mouth after eating something that's supposed to satisfy you. Still, I would recommend Dart to any fantasy lover. Now I'm going to read The Name of the Wind, the first in Kingkiller chronicles. It doesn't sound like my thing, but there are good reviews and I'm in A Game of Thrones withdrawal mood right now, so I'm going to read it.

I just read Michael Connelly's new police procedural - first in a new series. The Late Show . I really liked it after a bit of a slow start. 4 stars.

Still working on The Dark Tower re-read. Up to number 5, Wolves of the Calla. I can't recall if this is my second or third time through the series, but I'm enjoying it immensely -- I'm taking my time and feel like I'm getting a lot more out of it.

Scott wrote: "Now, I'm going to reread The Gunslinger."

Yesssssss... First time, or no?

Trike wrote: "They're classified as Fantasy because they include impossible things. If you violate the laws of nature and break the rules of physics, you are perforce telling a Fantasy story...The dragons can do all sorts of things which are simply impossible. Even if you grant the telepathy (which shouldn't be allowed, but pretend it is), the fact that the dragons can teleport not just through space but also through time just by wanting to is patently ridiculous. It's just not possible."

Not sure I agree with you on this. There's nothing supernatural in the Pern books -- no ghosts, no monsters, no demons, no magic. Some of the things that happen may not be possible or explicable with our current knowledge, but that doesn't make them impossible or supernatural. Bumblebees aren't supposed to be able to fly either, but they do. Quantum physics has proven facts that are much weirder than anything in the Pern books.

Trike wrote: "Star Wars is more science fictional than Pern, and no one regards that as SF.

Er, huh?? Everybody I know classes Star Wars as SF.

Max wrote: "Still, I would recommend Dart to any fantasy lover."

I read that as "imaginary lover" rather than "lover of Fantasy." Heh.

Max wrote: "I'm going to read The Name of the Wind, the first in Kingkiller chronicles. It doesn't sound like my thing, but there are good reviews and I'm in A Game of Thrones withdrawal mood right now, so I'm going to read it. "

If you want to scratch that itch, I highly recommend Katherine Kurtz's Deryni Chronicles. She did everything Martin is doing, 30 years earlier. Plus, she has multiple trilogies in that series which are finished.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deryn...

Michele wrote: "Not sure I agree with you on this. There's nothing supernatural in the Pern books -- no ghosts, no monsters, no demons, no magic. Some of the things that happen may not be possible or explicable with our current knowledge, but that doesn't make them impossible or supernatural. Bumblebees aren't supposed to be able to fly either, but they do. Quantum physics has proven facts that are much weirder than anything in the Pern books."

"Supernatural" is not limited to ghosts and goblins. It's anything that isn't possible by the laws of nature.

We know the math for teleportation through time, and it requires more energy than our sun will output in its entire 10 billion year lifetime. Ergo, dragons can't do it merely by *wishing* it. That's impossible by the known laws of physics. It was impossible when she wrote the books, ergo Fantasy. It is merely another word for magic.

Between McCaffrey's descriptions of Pern and the dragons and everything we know about aerodynamics and how animals fly tells us that the dragons don't have the power-to-weight ratio to fly, nevermind carry passengers.

Speaking of which, we know how birds, bats, and bugs fly. From moths to beetles, and even including pterosaurs as well as gliding mammals and gliding amphibians. The bumblebee thing is nonsense. That old saw is based on one guy's misunderstanding of aerodynamics and it keeps getting repeated by the scientifically illiterate. It belongs in the same category of Utter Nonsense as "we only use 20% of our brains" and "there's a dark side of the moon" and other stupid science myths.

Invoking quantum mechanics as a dodge is like saying, "I don't know how the sun works, so it's possible Martians built the pyramids." Ignorance of one doesn't "prove" anything about the other.

I just started Dracula! And I read every year the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss, Can't wait until book 3 comes out. Sometimes I wonder if it ever will

I work on the premise that science fiction is....fiction. I know this seems obvious, but it's about stuff that hasn't yet happened, and may not actually be possible.

Science Fiction that will probably work, or references our current understanding of the science of space/future, is usually known as 'hard science fiction.' I know some readers take the hard line that anything other than hard sci-fi is fantasy, but I don't think they're in the majority.

I suspect that's why there are so many subgenres in sci-fi - space opera, planetary romance etc.