Reading the Detectives discussion

This is our spoiler thread for our January group read, Fer-de-Lance by Rex Stout. Please be aware that spoilers can be openly discussed here, as it is assumed that anyone reading this thread has finished the book.

I never thought of this during any of my readings of the books, but when I was thinking about discussing it it suddenly occurred to me to wonder how realistic the idea of the golf club was. Could one actually construct such a mechanism? Would enough poison be contained in or on such a tiny needle (he thought it was just a bee sting, and it didn't bleed any, so must have been a really fine needle) to actually kill a healthy man? Would the poison have remained lethal while sitting in the club for days or weeks (I forget how far ahead it was made)? It's an ingenious plot, but is it really possible?

As I said, it never occurred to me before to question that, and I've read the book at least three times before, which just goes to show how good a writer Stout is that he could sell it so convincingly.

Everyman wrote: "I never thought of this during any of my readings of the books, but when I was thinking about discussing it it suddenly occurred to me to wonder how realistic the idea of the golf club was. Could o..."

Modern mysteries boast in the fact of being "realistic" but the downside to it is the lack of an ingenious plot and solution. I would rather read a Nero Wolfe book then many of these modern mysteries today with their dull plots. Many look down on the Golden Age mysteries because while the plot and solutions are ingenious many wonder if the murderer(s) committed the murders convincingly -- is it possible, is it realistic? But I think no matter how impossible the murder appears carry out, is it convincing enough? Did the writer sell it in a way that could happen even though we know it probably wouldn't in real life? I think a book should be a balance between suspension of disbelief, reality, and escapism. All the ingenious mysteries requires a little suspension of disbelief. I don't think a good book can be 100% realistic or only 100% of pure escapism (unless it be science fiction but even then you should have characters that are somewhat realistic apart from the fictional universe created). Suspension of disbelief and escapism allows the reader leeway for imagination and creativity. Good grief, if all I wanted was absolute realism or a greater degree of it, then a lot of these classic mysteries wouldn't have been written and would've been a loss. Think of all the great mysteries we would not have read and discussed if "realism" was only required? We wouldn't have had Nero Wolfe to read and re-read over and over at our own pleasure.

LovesMysteries wrote: "Many look down on the Golden Age mysteries because while the plot and solutions are ingenious many wonder if the murderer(s) committed the murders convincingly -- is it possible, is it realistic? ."

I mostly agree with you, but the "is it possible, is it realistic" is two very different questions. I'll suspend a lot of disbelief, but for me it needs to be possible, though not necessarily realistic. From last year's readings, for example, I think the murder process in The Five Red Herrings was highly unrealistic, but it was possible, so I accepted it without hesitation. If it is possible to build a golf club in the way Wolfe has it built, that's fine, don't care how realistic it is. But for me it has to be at least physically possible.

I felt some (many?) of the Wimsey plots were unrealistic, or impossible, but Sayers obviously enjoyed thinking them up. The thing is, how are we going to recreate this golf club and try it out?!

I'd love to know if it is really possible or not! There were a lot of far-fetched plots in Golden Age fiction, but this is certainly up there as one of the most unlikely.

Do you all prefer realistic plots and far more likely solutions or far-fetched plots and unlikely solutions?

LovesMysteries wrote: "Do you all prefer realistic plots and far more likely solutions or far-fetched plots and unlikely solutions?"

I vote for realistic plots and unlikely solutions.

Everyman wrote: "LovesMysteries wrote: "Do you all prefer realistic plots and far more likely solutions or far-fetched plots and unlikely solutions?"

I vote for realistic plots and unlikely solutions."

That's a good compromise; I agree.

Is it just me or is the elevator that takes Wolfe to the plant room not installed yet. I recall Archie talking about climbing the stairs to the floor containing his bedroom.

Gary, I can answer this one, as I've just read that bit - the elevator is installed but Archie does talk about the stairs when he takes Anna to look at the plants.

"Instead of asking her to walk up two flights of stairs I took her down the hall and used Wolfe's elevator."

I also have a question - what are Wolfe's "relapses"? I'd forgotten about this from a previous read and I find it puzzling - I think I've come across one in one other book so far. Is it any particular illness?

Judy wrote: "I also have a question - what are Wolfe's "relapses"? I'd forgotten about this from a previous read and I find it puzzling - I think I've come across one in one other book so far. Is it any particular illness? "

It's when he gets bored with a case or finds it too challenging until he gets more data or for some other reason just totally turns his mind off the case. He simply closes it entirely out of his mind and attention and can't be bothered even to take a phone call or talk to the client or listen to Archie report or anything. It's like closing out a computer program; nothing is going on.

Usually he goes into the kitchen and he and Fritz start experimenting with recipes; in one book, they send Archie running all over Manhattan for esoteric ingredients. Archie is left to do whatever the case needs, reassure the client that things are progressing (when they aren't), and try to chivvy Wolfe out of the relapse and get him back to work. Once Archie even went to the extent of getting himself arrested for murder in order to get Wolfe to end a relapse and get back to work.

Everyman wrote: "LovesMysteries wrote: "Many look down on the Golden Age mysteries because while the plot and solutions are ingenious many wonder if the murderer(s) committed the murders convincingly -- is it possi..."

That's a good way of putting it.

I just got back from sunny Florida into freezing snow.....yuck!!! But I wanted to comment on the Wolfe book.

Re: the relapses. Everyman is right on the money. Mr. Wolfe takes these spells where he is bored, challenged or found thrips on his orchids and takes to his bed for several days. In all the Wolfe books, it hasn't happened very often but it is a pain in the rear for Fritz and Archie to have to deal with it.

Fer de Lance is one of my least favorite books but Stout was just starting to build his characters whose personalities and quirks soon become a part and parcel of Wolfe, Archie, Fritz, and some of the other continuing characters.

Re: the elevator. Archie never uses it, only Mr. Wolfe and maybe someone who he is allowing to see his orchids. Even Cramer on the few times he invaded the greenhouse had to climb the steps.

I'm sure it would be very difficult living in the same house with Mr. Wolfe!!!!

Many thanks for the explanation of the relapses, Everyman and Jill - I felt the word "relapse" ought to mean there was some initial illness, but sounds as if it is more a reaction to whatever is going on in the particular case etc.

I don't think this is up there with the best of the Wolfe books that I've read so far, but I'm really enjoying all the great Archie one-liners. For instance, just came across this one:

"Everything that the doctor could tell me I had read three days earlier in the newspapers, except for a bunch of medical terms which the papers hadn't tried to print for fear of a typesetters' strike."

I think that when things don't go his way, Mr. Wolfe has a "relapse". He is spoiled, selfish and I love him dearly!!!

Wolfe's aversion to work msy well fit into the relapse category. Archie is constantly having to push him into bringing in fees to keep the brownstone running.

How true, Gary. I'm sure Mr. Wolfe doesn't pay Archie enough even though he does get free room and board!!!!!

Jill wrote: "I think that when things don't go his way, Mr. Wolfe has a "relapse". He is spoiled, selfish and I love him dearly!!!"

Ditto!

Jill wrote: "How true, Gary. I'm sure Mr. Wolfe doesn't pay Archie enough even though he does get free room and board!!!!!"

And what board! Pretty decent chow at that house.

Rex Stout wrote "The Nero Wolfe Cookbook," the recipes for many (most? all??) of the dishes mentioned in the books, interspersed with relevant quotes from the books and photos of period New York. It's quite delightful for browsing, though I have no interest in cooking anything as complex as these recipes. (I'm a plain "meat, potatoes, and a veg" eater. No fancy French stuff or elaborate sauces to ruin the straightforward food.

Jill wrote: "How true, Gary. I'm sure Mr. Wolfe doesn't pay Archie enough even though he does get free room and board!!!!!"

He needs some cash. After all he has weekly poker games with Lon and Saul. Then there is the whole taking out Lily Rowan for dinner and dancing.

Gary wrote: "He needs some cash. After all he has weekly poker games with Lon and Saul. Then there is the whole taking out Lily Rowan for dinner and dancing. "

Not to mention the quality suits he occasionally dons, the robe that's good enough to loan to a female guest (I forget which book), and the like. But I suspect Wolfe pays him pretty well, even though he does ask for raises from time to time.

Would that be the same robe that Wolfe gave him?

Hilary wrote: "Would that be the same robe that Wolfe gave him?"

Yes, I think it was. One of only two that I can think of things that Wolfe gave him, the other being his ostrich card case with the crossed pistols decoration.

I've now finished rereading - I'd forgotten that the killer's identity is revealed such a long time before the end of the book. First time I read the book, I felt this rather spoilt the tension, but now I think it works fine - the fear of what he will do before they manage to prove it's him/catch him builds up the tension well and there is still a final twist to come.

However, on that final twist... I don't really like the fact that they allow him to get away and commit another murder, even though his victim is a murderer too. I know allowing a murderer to commit suicide happens a lot in books of this era, but for me allowing him to commit a murder too is a bit much.

This final gave me a bad taste, Judy. But I'm proud Nero Wolfe made the money, solving the puzzle. By the way, I think that the law enforcement group behave badly, too much incompetence.

I'm wondering if Wolfe always chooses a solution that will earn his fee while allowing him to stay home. One book is not a large sample. I've started The League of Frightened Men so will see if that fits my theory.

Marcus wrote: "This final gave me a bad taste, Judy. But I'm proud Nero Wolfe made the money, solving the puzzle. By the way, I think that the law enforcement group behave badly, too much incompetence."

As well as the murder/suicide, I was also disturbed by the trick they play on Anna with the fake robbery - I know they give her $1,000 at the end but I wish they had found another way instead of terrifying her like that!

Sandy wrote: "I'm wondering if Wolfe always chooses a solution that will earn his fee while allowing him to stay home. One book is not a large sample. I've started The League of Frightened Men ."

I don't think he always manages a solution like that, but I'm sure he'd like to when possible! I loved The League of Frightened Men - you are in for a treat there, Sandy.

Sandy wrote: "I'm wondering if Wolfe always chooses a solution that will earn his fee while allowing him to stay home. .."

Whenever he possibly can, he does. But occasionally, I can think of two cases, he fails and has to go in and sit in the witness chair and testify. But usually, he finds a way to stay home in the only chair he really enjoys sitting in.

Wolf is a magician, an artist as he said. A pragmatic and effective artist...

I finished at 3 AM this morning and was wide awake thinking about it. I mulled over the "robbery" and really couldn't see any other way to get Anna to cooperate. They had tried everything reasonable, it seemed to me. The fact is, she had information to catch a murderer and refused to help, even when she was given an acceptable way to do so (with the switch in $100). I felt that Nero and Archie were very tolerant of her recalcitrance. And as for the "robbery" she damaged more than was damaged and when you think of how she behaved toward her $100, I think she would have considered $1000 more than adequate pay.

As for the murder suicide, neither father nor son were very sympathetic characters. The father didn't know for sure that he wasn't the biological father, and in lieu of DNA testing which didn't exist, he didn't even consider opting for assuming that he was. Which left the kid to grow up however---apparently good old dad didn't care until he got older and wanted something. As for the son, just because your parents (or lack thereof) make you the way you are, doesn't mean you have to stay that way. Yes, Nero acted as judge and jury, but he is an eccentric after all. And I suspect his readers in the 30's had less problems with the solution than we might.

Judy wrote: "Sandy wrote: "I'm wondering if Wolfe always chooses a solution that will earn his fee while allowing him to stay home. One book is not a large sample. I've started [book:The League of Frightened Me..."

I also am on to the League of Frightened Men!

I was so disappointed in previous months when this book didn't win the vote, and I'm so glad it finally did! I love the contrast between the Nero Wolfe and Archie Goodwin characters. They complement each other beautifully, and I really enjoy Archie's wisecracks. To me, the books seem timeless- even with mention of roadsters and archaic telephone numbers, the stories don't seem to be stuck in the time they were written. I have read the entire series about 15 years ago, and reading Fer-de-Lance again has me ready to go back and reread the whole series.

I've been wondering what a fer-de-lance snake looks like after reading the dramantic incident involving the creature - here is a link to a page with some info and pictures. I definitely wouldn't like to find one of these in my office drawer.

https://ypte.org.uk/factsheets/fer-de...

Also, I've come across an interesting blog about Wolfe and Archie which has a picture from the initial magazine publication of this story, of Wolfe killing the snake:

https://neroandarchie.wordpress.com/2...

Finished and very much enjoyed. I've read some of the Nero Wolfe books waaay back in the 70s. This wasn't one of them, but I love how it jumps straight into Archie & Nero's lives.

I made good use of my dictionaries on my kindle for some of the slang terms- and there was a racist term that really made me blink! Since I prefer uncensored I just grit my teeth and carry on.

I found a picture of a roadster - am I allowed to put it up here? Otherwise, it is on my review! :)

Carol, I think it would be fine to post the roadster picture - maybe keep it fairly small for people reading on phones? Alternatively (or as well!) you could put a link to the picture and/or your review. :)

I will be moving over the next 2-3 days so will not be around much.
Thd good news is that I will be boxing up my paperbacks and will no doubt locate my copy ov The League of Frightened Men so I can move on more or less in sequence. I have the 3rd and 4th books on my Nook. I am dure I will uncover books by Christie, McBain, Grimes, Gardner and others. I hate moving.

Gary wrote: "I will be moving over the next 2-3 days so will not be around much.
Thd good news is that I will be boxing up my paperbacks and will no doubt locate my copy ov The League of Frightened Men so I can..."

Even the thought of moving sends me into spasms, after which I go to bed and pull the covers over my head. Hope you have some good friends to help and find every book you have been looking for!

Judy wrote: "Carol, I think it would be fine to post the roadster picture - maybe keep it fairly small for people reading on phones? Alternatively (or as well!) you could put a link to the picture and/or your r..."

Ok!

I went to the Wikipedia page first.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadste...

While I thought the car pictured up top was gorgeous, to my more modern eyes it didn't look racey enough for Archie's vehicle.

So I found another source. If you scroll right down on my review you will see it.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...

Lynne wrote: "Gary wrote: "I will be moving over the next 2-3 days so will not be around much.
Thd good news is that I will be boxing up my paperbacks and will no doubt locate my copy ov The League of Frightened..."

No help from friends or family. I have to do all the boxing myself.

Gary wrote: "Lynne wrote: "Gary wrote: "I will be moving over the next 2-3 days so will not be around much.
Thd good news is that I will be boxing up my paperbacks and will no doubt locate my copy ov The League..."

Good luck on the move Gary. Hope you soon settle in to your new place

How far are you moving? Seems like all my moves have been cross-country, though you still have to pack for even a move across town.
Please tell me you are taking that lovely cat with you!

Lynne wrote: "Even the thought of moving sends me into spasms, after which I go to bed and pull the covers over my head. "

Me too. It was bad enough when I had to move from Pittsburgh to San Juan Island. I gave all my furniture to my sister, who lived in New York, but shipped all my books out to Washington -- 164 cartons of books; took load of them to the post office every morning on my way to work for about a month; they got used to seeing me hauling in boxes and boxes every day.

We now have about three times as many books as I did then, what with 30+ years more purchases and my wife's books, not as many as mine but still a lot, especially a huge collection of children's books (more than our local library has) that takes up much of the upper floor of my library. The very thought of trying to move our book collection makes me ready to join Lynne (Platonically, of course) screaming under the covers.

Lynne wrote: "How far are you moving? Seems like all my moves have been cross-country, though you still have to pack for even a move across town.
Please tell me you are taking that lovely cat with you!"

Moving a short piece down the road. I am moving in to help my ailing parents, ages 91 and 88. Both cats are going with me. If you expand my profile picture you will see Dot, my tortie hiding behind her big brother.

I didn't mean to derail the discussion. Let us head back to a certain brownstone.....

Hope your move goes well, Gary.

What did anyone think of the snake incident? It had me on the edge of my seat even on a reread!

It's a way of intimidating Nero Wolf. I'm not sure if the intention was to murder him. Anyway, Wolf could copy with that. The means one chooses, IMO, is related to South American environment. The link was there.

Judy wrote: "Hope your move goes well, Gary.

What did anyone think of the snake incident? It had me on the edge of my seat even on a reread!"

Snakes make me crawly anyway, even though I know the vast majority of them are "good neighbors". This scenario with the fer-de-lance in the drawer reminded me so much of Sherlock and the Speckled Band. Makes one want to get a pet mongoose! I think the intention was to murder Wolfe---there was every expectation that he would not be able to move quickly enough to save himself. Of course, as it evolved, he figured it out ahead of time, was not intimidated, and coshed the critter with a beer bottle. What's not to love?!

Judy wrote: "Hope your move goes well, Gary.

What did anyone think of the snake incident? It had me on the edge of my seat even on a reread!"

I was expecting it because of the book title.It was well done though.