Support for Indie Authors discussion

So as I was out for a walk today I thought about my next book and how I'd plan it out and write it. Usually I write a certain amount of words for each chapter and then I start the next. While I do check on my word count from time to time I don't usually have a set count in mind.

It brings me to my questions. how do you go about writing your book? Do you have a certain amount of words you want your chapters to be? Do you write each chapter out or do you just keep writing until you've finished and then go back and drop your chapters accordingly? I myself think of how many chapters I want and usually stop around a range of words before getting started on the next chapter.

Just curious as to how people go about planning their chapters and word counts.

Umm. I have never yet planned a number of chapters and a word count and stuck to the plan.

I always think I know, then stuff starts happening.

My approach is to have the beginning, and know the end. Then the middle is dictated by my characters. Therefore the length of chapters is dictated by the action. Ditto the final word count.

I have a spreadsheet in Excel. I split my book in 3 parts: beginning, middle and the end. Each part consists of 10 chapter with a maximum of 3000 words. It's fine if I stay under that limit or go above but that's what I shoot for.

Alexis wrote: "I have a spreadsheet in Excel. I split my book in 3 parts: beginning, middle and the end. Each part consists of 10 chapter with a maximum of 3000 words. It's fine if I stay under that limit or go a..."

I like this! :)

I've done it all kinds of ways from planning out each chapter along with word count to just winging it.

I found that when I planned I ended changing my planner to match what I had written more often than changing my writing to fit the planner, so nowadays I generally just let it flow naturally.

There is no standard for how long a chapter should be. As such, I think it's far more important that you (at some point*) decide what each chapter should be about, what it needs to do, and then write it to fit that whether it ends up being half a page or 50 pages.

* I really wouldn't worry about it while you're doing the bulk of the writing. You can always go back and analyze what each chapter should be later and adjust the text to match.

Personally, I find I use a kind of standard shorthand for textual breaks on three levels:

1) Minor breaks set off with an extra line break are used when there is a break in the action but the POV, general setting, and characters have not changed much. (For example, "Fifteen minutes later...")

2) Definitive break set off with three line breaks, the middle one having * * * in center justified text. This is when the setting or time or character set or POV makes a major break, but within a chapter. Like if you're following two POV characters performing simultaneous actions. Any change between them gets this kind of break.

3) Chapter break. Major changes of scene, time, character set, POV, or even writing style ... when the section is the beginning of a new unit of text that performs as a narrative whole. So, for example, the first chapter should set up the main problem and introduce you to the main character.

One last observation, chapters largely control the pace of novels. I find that shorter ones are better when the pace needs to be fast and furious: action heavy chapters for example. Slower paced sections of the plot--like when you're setting up atmosphere or doing some necessary exposition--can be longer.

It's rather like LP records back in the old days: the arrangement (sequencing) of songs was almost more important often than the songs themselves. It was all about leading the listener on a journey from song to song...too many songs of the same length and same tempo and the album became boring. Pacing. Very important. We should be called composers rather than authors.

My general process is to start with a loose outline, then break that down into chapters, give a little more detail to the chapter outlines, then write the actual story. I used to just write off the cuff but I ALWAYS wrote myself into a corner when I did that and just ended up abandoning the stories because I was so frustrated. Planning things out the way I do now is working out much better for me.

As for word count, I never try and control word count for my chapters. What works works, and I don't want to force more (or less) into a chapter just because I'm determined to have a specific amount of words.

Depends on the project. I usually have a vague idea of how long a book will be when I start writing, so sometimes that guides my chapter sizes. For one series I had a specific number of chapters for each book and a target word count of about 50k for each book, but on others, I've completely winged it. Now, I do have a really weird hangup regarding the number of chapters, but that's a weird me thing.

For myself if I have an idea, I always figure out my ending first, then beginning, which usually changes a few times midway through. Then I out line ideas vaguely in each chapter as to how I'll get to the ending, adding my mini movie formula for the chapters then do the same for each individual chapter. I read, then edit each chapter a few times again. I write screenplays so it's hard writing very little description for those then the opposite for novels, which is why it's taken me so long to finish I think lol

Micah wrote: "I've done it all kinds of ways from planning out each chapter along with word count to just winging it.

I found that when I planned I ended changing my planner to match what I had written more oft..."

Like this!!!

I make my chapter breaks at a turn in the action. Some chapters are short, some are long. I used to try to make all of my chapters the same length, but it was really artificial (and I made long chapters). I prefer to let them come naturally. Some books I cluster the scenes into chapters as I write. Others, I just keep writing the scenes and group them into chapters when the first draft is complete. When I do a full read-through for flow, plot holes, etc., I watch the chapter breaks and see if they 'feel right'. Sometimes a scene moves from the end of one chapter to the beginning of the next, or vice versa. Sometimes a large chapter gets broken into two smaller chapters. It just depends on how it feels.

I let chapter length and number of chapters happen as they will. I plan stories out by scene then order those scenes in an outline. And while I try to turn a scene into a chapter, some scenes end up merging while others scenes need to be broken up.

I don't really plan anything. My chapters vary in length depending on what needs to happen. I stop and start a new one as I write the story, not at the end. If they are too long, I might try to cut them somewhere where it seems logical, but if they are short well, be it. They stay short.

Same with the total word count. It is what the story is. Just as I wouldn't want to cut important parts, I wouldn't want to add words or scenes just to stretch it either.

Now, with this new WiP it seems to be impossible to have reasonable chapter lengths. I'm not too bothered with it yet since each chapter is cut in two but some are on the limit of what I like and it drives me insane. That will teach me to try to write two stories in one. :/

Thanks everyone for your interesting and informative input on Chapter length and content. I write Science Fiction and I construct my stories in terms of two critical turning points in the plot and I suppose that defines the three sections a number of you have talked about: beginning, middle and end for my novels.

Since I write in the third person point of view, I will only change the POV character at the beginning of a chapter or after a scene break. I prefer a chapter because I don't want my POV changing too often. This means my chapters may be of quite different length.

One thing I have found helpful: I write my manuscripts in Microsoft Word and I am able to define a Chapter heading style that automatically adjusts chapter numbers. So if I have to insert a new chapter, I don't have to re-number all the subsequent ones-it's done automatically. Sorry if you already know this. I don't mean to share common knowledge.

Alex wrote: "One thing I have found helpful: I write my manuscripts in Microsoft Word and I am able to define a Chapter heading style that automatically adjusts chapter numbers. So if I have to insert a new chapter, I don't have to re-number all the subsequent ones-it's done automatically...."

I now write in Scrivener where my Chapters are folders and each scene is its own document inside its chapter folder. It's even easier and more malleable than working in Word: type, type, type, need a new scene? press Ctrl-K, keep writing.

I determine what needs to happen in each chapter ahead of time regardless of how many words are necessary to make it happen. Some chapters end up short, others longer, and a few very long.

The process varies from book to book. The one true novel I have out was written in a linear fashion with no chapters in the rough draft. I did leave breaks between scenes. As I read it over, I looked for places that felt like a natural chapter break. At the encouragement of the beta readers, I split the chapters even finer as the original breaks were fairly long.

The project I have going right now was written as many tiny pieces. When I felt I had enough for the bare bones of the book, I rearranged them in an order that made some sense. I went through and expanded a number of ideas and gave chapter headings between breaks in topic.

I am not as organized as the rest of you! LOL I decide on the beginning and then I just write. I couldn't tell you how many words were in any of the chapters in any of my books! I write a chapter until I feel its done and then I go on to the next one! I never know whats going to happen in any major part of my stories until I get there. I definitely give my characters entirely too much power! HAHA!

Hi Ember, I always make sure I know how my story ends - so I have a target that I write to.

Yeah I wish I could do that too! Every time I decide it's going to end a certain way my characters revolt! I end up blocked until I listen to how they want it to end! Completely annoying but what can I do? Hahaha

I usually have a vague idea where the story ends but I never have a word count in mind. The story will be as long as it takes to tell the story. If I can tell a story in 5000 words, fine. If I need 100,000 words, that's fine too.

As some of the others, I don't worry about the word count in my chapters, but I do try to limit the length of the chapters. I usually stay within a range of 3-7 pages per chapter, but have had some as short as one page. I don't worry about total word count either. My first book was 110,000 +/_ while the second one came in under 70,000. Guess it all depends on how much my characters want to do and how long it takes them to do it. LOL

Lots of great responses, love it'

I don't force a word count for my chapters, I have a plan with what will happen in each one and aim to finish with something that will intrigue the reader to go onto the next one. Some end up a little short or long, usually 2 - 3.5K words but I find that works well for me.

I'm not saying the plan always stays the same though, I'm always going back and rearranging my chapter list! I just get inefficient if I don't know where I'm heading at the time.

I don't worry about word counts. That is dictated by my characters and the story. What I do is I use a legal pad and start with the plot. What I want the story to be and who are my main characters, their characteristics and purpose. From there, I start at chapter 1 and write a sentence or two in what I want to see happen in the chapter/scene. If I don't know, I use TBD (To be determined) and move on the next chapter or scene.
I will take those notes and start fleshing out the scenes, again using a pad and pen. I may do this two or three time before I go to the computer to start typing. Once I have a good idea of what is going to be happening, only then I will start typing.

Here is where it gets to be fun. The characters will 'change' where they take me as I type. But....I do go back to my written plan when they hit an end point...combining pantster and plotter methods of writing. It is all about the characters and what they think, do and get themselves into or out of in each chapter. The point here is that I have certain scenes I want or need in the book, but my characters have to get there in their own ways.

Once I have the first draft completed, I now go back and edit, adding or deleting scenes in an attempt to ensure I have all the necessary parts to make it a decent novel. Are the characters well rounded or flat? Do I have a good villain or a blah character? Is my heroine/hero interesting and can they be related to easily or are they flat and not worthy of attention? The minor characters....are they taking over? Did I wrap up the subplots? etc....

My goal is to get that first draft done, but in a way where I don't have it out of control like my first novel of 500,000 + words. (Yeah, and to think it only took me three months to complete).

I use a combo of James Patterson's method, The Snowflake, pantster and base it all into the deep story outline I have to ensure I have all the parts needed in the novel. So, take those classes, read those help books and experiment to find what works for you.

I typically tried to keep my chapters around 4000.... but for my current book, each POV is a new chapter, and it's thriller style, so some of my chapters are only a few paragraphs long.

Lately, I try to leave my chapter more on a 'need to turn the page' edge than worry about length as much. But, I'm still around 4000 words.

I'm a hybrid of sorts I suppose, but I lean on the outline side of things. My current fantasy series uses multiple viewpoint characters so I use an Excel outline like Alexis mentioned to provide a framework. For example, which character is the POV and what needs to happen in that chapter before another character comes along and is affected or reacts to it.

This bare bones outline gives me milestones or tent poles or whatever you want to call them, but I absolutely reserve the write to "pants" it within the chapters. Who would want to read the story if there wasn't any spontaneity in there at all?

I like this approach because it allows me the freedom to explore things and see if something works or is worth pursuing, but also keeps me informed as to where I'm at in the larger context. It gives me opportunities for tangents or new ideas, but I keep writing toward the markers I've left for myself so I feel like I'm moving forward and not middling too much.

As for specific word counts, I tend to write mine longer than average from a lot of what I've seen - somewhere around 3500 to 5000. I write fantasy so the word count is hefty(ish) to begin with so it's not necessarily a bad thing in my view, and I think it helps the reader because of the multiple viewpoints. Switching characters too often might be disorienting, but that's just my own POV :)

I make every chapter as long as it needs to be. :)

In every full length book I have I try to make a one page chapter, as a joke about how short that chapter is.

I strive for one day having a chapter that is a single word. :)

A single word chapter. Now that is an intriguing concept.

Perhaps the word is 'hallelujah'

C.B. wrote: "I strive for one day having a chapter that is a single word. :)
"

Make sure this is the chapter with the longest chapter name.

Jane wrote: "A single word chapter. Now that is an intriguing concept.

Perhaps the word is 'hallelujah'"

It might even be less than a word. It will probably be:

!

and that is it.

Christina wrote: "Make sure this is the chapter with the longest chapter name."

That was the plan. :D The chapter name tells you far more than the chapter. It will be a grand reaction shot to something vital.

I write my chapters around 3000-4000 words each. Why? Because FastPencil, which is a platform I often use for writing while I'm away from home, completely kludges out at chapter lengths beyond that. It's okay though because it makes nice chapters.

Hey CB, here's a chapter for you.

Chapter 26

Wherein Our Plucky Characters React to the Startling Events in the Previous Chapter, with an Air of Incredulity.

---

?

Rohvannyn wrote: "Chapter 26

Wherein Our Plucky Characters React to the Startling Events in the Previous Chapter, with an Air of Incredulity."

I like it. I shall attempt to make it Chapter 26 even!

I only use wordcount to understand my cover template.

However if I've got 2000+ word scene, I would consider if it needs to be broken up into smaller scenes.

I'm if the belief that chapter
we length is variable. Love the idea of a long title and a symbol for the chapter. I can see that happening.

to me, it is all about your style and voice. Where I may be descriptive, the next person may be bare bones.

I will admit to still attempting to figure out how to complete a first draft in less then the three months it takes for me to plot, plan and set up then actually write the novel.

FYI... I know of one person who writes all the dialogue then goes back and fills in the details. She is able to complete a novel in a two months.

Of some referential interest: http://lotrproject.com/statistics/boo...

Tolkien's chapter lengths by book. Put your cursor over a chapter to see its name and word length.

From 600 words to 16,360 (his shortest and longest, both in LotR)

Ember wrote: "Yeah I wish I could do that too! Every time I decide it's going to end a certain way my characters revolt! I end up blocked until I listen to how they want it to end! Completely annoying but what c..."

Hi Ember, it also happens to me, and then I re-design. my ending and major reversals remain the same, but how they occur does change based on what the Characters tell me they have to do...

I don't think chapter length is as important as it may seem. My rule is to end with a cliffhanger, a point of tension, or growth or a set back for a character. It is not the size of the wave...

As far as planning, I usually do an outline first. I start with a single sentence or two describing a rough idea of what the chapter has to achieve. I place them at the end of my manuscript. When I get to the next chapter I take that description and use it as a reference. As ideas flow and other pieces open up, I manage that list.

I believe achieving goals is easier in life if you have one. Once it has been defined, break into smaller deliverables. This keeps me on point.

Do any of you create story "timelines" before you really get in there and start writing? If I could figure out how in the heck I upload a photo to this thread I'd show a pic of a few templates.

I learned this tactic from Donald Miller's Storyline Conference series and I have the outline for it in my workbook. It's basically where you think of chapters as more like positive and negative turns in your character's life. Something is always happening and there must be some kind of friction/conflict or shall we say forward or backward movement from one turn to the next. Generally there wouldn't be a ton of segments, with the average story having about 14 or so "turns".

It's actually pretty cool because you first organize it as an outline, with a heading and a few descriptive sentences of what would overall take place. But then you make an actual timeline with a bar going across and all your positive turns marked at the top and your negative turns stemming below the line.

You see your main character make advances (say +2) and then get sucked into a mistake or natural setback, (-3) and bam, it's just like real life! It helps you really identify what your character truly wants and what conflict stands in the way of achieving it. You can see if you have an unfair balance of way too much conflict going on (scale it back) or where your story is truly lacking in conflict and readers may desire to breeze over sections because they are left wanting. It's also a great way to show your story briefly to a stranger/friend and say, hey, can you identify the theme of my story? (Because, ultimately, they should be able to.)

When I first drafted mine from the conference, I was already 3/4 into my manuscript. I realized I had way too much material and decided to trim a lot of the fluff. I realized which segments were really deserving of actual chapters and when I found a beloved chapter I couldn't cut, I added conflict in there.

Going forward, this will be the first thing I do before I take off writing blindly. I have Scrivener too, so it should be easy to organize and re-organize as I get to adding meat to the bones of my story.

That's really interesting Amie. I'm outlining my second book right now so I'll have to look into that and maybe incorporate some of it.

Thanks for sharing!

I set a word count for each chapter (2500), but only because previous books turned out to not be descriptive enough. It's like when school essays have a page minimum, so you go back and add fluff...only in this case you add description. That forces me to add more detail. But I have to be okay with removing anything based on suggestions from beta readers.

As for chapters, I don't have a set number. I like for it to hover around 50, but most of all I want the entire story to be told. It helps that my book is multiple POV, and each chapter is from one character's perspective at a time. That makes it a little easier to have a concise outline before I get to writing the book.

My first chapter is often the longest, as it sets the world and characters and issues to be dealt with, and the following chapters are often shorter, but there's no real consistency about it all, nor do I aim for any particular length. The story totally dictates the length of both the chapters and the overall book - I definitely write by feel rather than by maths! I honestly couldn't tell you how many words per chapter (or even how many chapters in the book)... With my current book, I called the first chapter a Prologue anyway (and with my last book I called the final chapter an Epilogue), so who knows? :)

Christina wrote: "Now, I do have a really weird hangup regarding the number of chapters, but that's a weird me thing."

...so, what's your weird chaptery hangup???

My two sense
The chapter, like the paragraph iis not the smallest part of a book.
The basic building block is the scene.
Chapters in fiction are a short story, a spun out tale, that necessary bit of exposition, a lyrical description, or a battle.
The scenes are the meat of the book and how you stack them together to give dramatic weight, suspense, pathos, or anything else is what constitutes your chapter.
In my first book I have 63 chapters but in the second only nine. Much more internal structure in the second.

I only have one published book under my belt, but am working on two others at the moment and have discovered I handle this differently for nonfiction than for fiction.

For essays, I tend to aim for a somewhat consistent chapter length of around 1800-2200 words. It naturally takes about that much to tell a story the way I want, and there's something nice when working in the essay format to keep them similar. Because essays are often digested in separate parcels, your reader soon knows about how much time he/she will need to complete one if it's standardized a little.

However, on the historical fiction thing I'm working on, there's no way to control chapter length, because it kind of unfurls as its world demands, know what I mean? Some are short, some long, depending on what's happening and what's needed.

So ... I think measuring chapter length, at least for me, depends upon the genre I'm working in.

For me with a whole one book published I don't consider chapter length. One of mine is two pages long because that's all it took to get that part of the story written. Others are much longer. I think I once saw someone on TV criticise Terry Pratchett for not using chapters at all. That made me laugh considering how popular the Discworld novels were and are. I grew up reading horror which is where I discovered there were no rules to how many pages a chapter should have in horror fiction at least.

I liked it when Stephanie Meyer once created like 3 chapters in a row in New Moon and each chapter had nothing more than the name of a month listed in it. I thought, "Brilliant!"

(Yes...I realize I just confessed a love for Twilight still. #HonestAbe)

Haha, Amie, that's okay ... I actually still have a Howard Stern book on my shelf, so if we're confessing ... #HonestAbeNumber2

I wish I could remember the author and book that depicted someone's slope into drug addled madness whilst marooned on an island. It was written in journal style with diary entries. I always remember the character in the last entries simply trying to write "February" and it coming out something like "Febba Feb F" and that was it for the chapter.

Go on which book was that in? Must have read it 20 years ago and it's likely to be a best selling author because that's mainly who I read back then.

The only time I'm thinking about word count is when I'm thinking overall length of the book and using it as a general guide to where I want to be for the story I'm telling. Chapters are variable in word count/pages for me.

I focus on the content I want in that particular chapter and how it leads into the next chapter and then at the end of it all do my trimming for final word count.

@Amie, I do short timelines. What's happening, what's coming soon (the next couple chapters), and how that affects the overall story arc. It works for me.

Amie wrote: "Do any of you create story "timelines" before you really get in there and start writing? If I could figure out how in the heck I upload a photo to this thread I'd show a pic of a few templates.

I ..."

I have in the past, especially if I have multiple POV characters doing multiple things and I need to make sure events match up. I should add this to my 'outlining' worksheet I do, though. Thanks!