Reading with Style discussion

Please ask any questions about the Spring 2017 RwS Challenge here.

I have a question. I see that at least one version (edited translation) book from the middle east is in the Western Canon. This is the KJV. I'm guessing this is because KJV is one of the 17th century versions (the most popular one). Does this mean that all novels and nonfiction books, plays, etc, from the middle east are considered western or is it just that? You may have seen this before, of course, but here is something from the World Atlas online.

The Middle East is a geographical and cultural region located primarily in western Asia, but also in parts of northern Africa and southeastern Europe. The western border of the Middle East is defined by the Mediterranean Sea, where Israel, Lebanon, and Syria rest opposite from Greece and Italy in Europe. Egypt in Africa also borders the Mediterranean and is sometimes considered as part of the Middle East, while Turkey and Cyprus literally connect Europe to Asia and oscillate between being called European and Middle Eastern.

From this I would think that normally the middle east would be considered non-western, but wanted to ask to be sure. I don't recall if there are other middle-eastern books in the Western Canon, and of course a book can only count for one or the other since western and non-western are opposites. But then not exactly, since for some reason South America isn't western. I am interpreting western as being European and British, Canadian and American (also the island nation of Iceland and then, of course, Greenland,

This begs the question as to how any writings by the Inuit, Inupiat, Yupik, and Alutiit would be considered. Do you go by the country they are in even if it is ethnic writing? I ask because, for example, Inuit throat singing (not a book) is NOT what we'd consider western music. This is something naturally arbitrary in decision making, so I'm asking for clarification purposes only.

It's not likely I'm going to read anything by anyone of the Inuit, Inupiat, Yupik, and Alutiit peoples, but it could happen, or someone else might.

An aside and complete tangent--
For anyone not familiar with Inuit throat singing, here's a link to the competition song at a festival in Manitoba Inuit Throat Singing There is also throat singing in other parts of the world, such as Mongolia.

The list is what it is.

Distinguishing literature from popular fiction is an imperfect science, but we're trying anyway. This challenge, you'll receive 10 extra points when you read a work of literature in the Western canon to complete a task. We'll be using famous uber-critic Harold Bloom's Western Canon as the arbiter

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "The list is what it is.

Distinguishing literature from popular fiction is an imperfect science, but we're trying anyway. This challenge, you'll receive 10 extra points when you read a work of lite..."

Sorry, my question was not to debate the Canon, because I totally understand THAT part. I was trying to better clarify the non-Western challenge. Non-Western doesn't mean any book not on the Western Canon. But when I saw a book originally from the middle east on he Western Canon I wanted to ask about other middle eastern books.

Non-Western (10 points): read a book by author born and citizen of/residing in a non-Western country: Mexico, Central America, South America, Africa, and Asia (which includes Russia & all former USSR countries). Where do Palestine, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, UE, Turkey etc fit?

Karin wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "The list is what it is.

Distinguishing literature from popular fiction is an imperfect science, but we're trying anyway. This challenge, you'll receive 10 extra points w..."

Karin, most of those countries are in Western Asia (Syria, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon).

This reference may help: States and Territories by Continent

Bea wrote: "Karin wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "The list is what it is.

Distinguishing literature from popular fiction is an imperfect science, but we're trying anyway. This challenge, you'll receive 10 ..."

Yes, I would think so, too. I just asked since the Canon, which is not exactly the opposite of the non-Western had some overlap. I realize now my first question was too much thinking out loud and not clear enough. Accidental obfuscation, which is a confusing word for what it means!

Also, nothing was said about Australia and New Zealand, island countries, but I am guessing they would be western due to the strong British influence in settling them.

Re Aus & NZ: yes, if nothing is said, then they're Western. We've had this category before so I can be sure :)

You might need a ruling on Turkey & Cyprus, but all the other middle-eastern countries you list are firmly in Asia, so they're non-Western.

You'll find the writer's ethnicity is not a factor.

I think the use of the word "Western" in both of these style categories is coincidental. Bloom's definition of "Western" is more of a cultural thing and not strictly about geographical areas. So a book can be in Bloom's "Western Canon" and still get non-Western style points.

Sorry, I did not understand the question. Non-Western is in some ways also cultural, so as you surmise, Australia and NZ are considered western, even though they are surely in the eastern hemisphere. You will note that for non-western the criteria is that both the country of birth and cit/res is considered. An author might have been born in India, for instance, but be a British citizen, so does not qualify for non-western. In the quick links thread is the listing of non-western authors we have read. This post will be updated in the next few days.

Also, from our FAQ:

What countries are included in the non-Western style?
Non-western includes:


Mexico, Central America, South America, Africa, Middle East, Asia (including Russia & former USSR countries)


Former USSR countries:
Armenia; Azerbaijan; Belarus; Estonia; Georgia; Kazakhstan; Kyrgyzstan; Latvia; Lithuania; Moldova; Russia; Tajikistan; Turkmenistan; Ukraine; Uzbekistan

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Sorry, I did not understand the question. Non-Western is in some ways also cultural, so as you surmise, Australia and NZ are considered western, even though they are surely in the eastern hemispher..."

Thanks, just want to be sure. Sometimes I get too technical, and the former USSR is helpful. Plus, I learned something--I hadn't realized that certain countries, such as Poland, Czechoslovakia (no longer joined as one country, though, but they were when I was growing up), East Germany, etc were more like satellite states or other things and not technically part of the USSR. It can be rather confusing at times, and I don't recall every being taught all of that in detail

I am very pleased that you look at citizen ship with this, because if you go somewhere as an adult you don't have the same feel for a place, etc, as if you grow up there, no matter how much you adapt or change.

Looking forward to this challenge!

So far, it's looking kinda hard to get non-western style... the only possibility I see is for 20.6...

Tien wrote: "So far, it's looking kinda hard to get non-western style... the only possibility I see is for 20.6..."

There will be other opportunities, but, yes, it's slim pickins' so far.

Tien wrote: "So far, it's looking kinda hard to get non-western style... the only possibility I see is for 20.6..."

True, but there is already at least one spot for the Western Canon so far. I haven't examined the Canon well enough to look for more yet as I'm waiting for the remaining categories, or at least more, before starting to make too many plans.

Karin wrote: "True, but there is already at least one spot for the Western Canon so far. "

20.1, 20.4, and 20.6 all offer opportunities for the Canon. I'm fairly certain that several of the poll options will also. The schedule is that those will be posted sometime tomorrow.

New Question regarding the Western Canon. How do we handle something like what is listed for Proust. That is a compilation of a number of books (perhaps all, I'm not sure now), which is over 3000 pages if you read it all the volumes of that. Can you do one volume and have it count as Western Canon? One book from those volumes if it is published as its own book and was so originally?

Karin wrote: "New Question regarding the Western Canon. How do we handle something like what is listed for Proust. That is a compilation of a number of books (perhaps all, I'm not sure now), which is over 3000 p..."

Each count individually. You'll see for Trollope that both of his 6-volume series are on the Canon, so that is 12 books for 2 entries. Shakespeare says "Plays and Poems" which is just about everything. There are more like that, too.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karin wrote: "New Question regarding the Western Canon. How do we handle something like what is listed for Proust. That is a compilation of a number of books (perhaps all, I'm not sure now), which ..."

Thanks, I thought so, but this is my first time with this style category.

Karin wrote: "Thanks, I thought so, but this is my first time with this style category. ."

It's always good to ask questions - even if you have to ask them twice because I was a dullard and didn't get the thrust of it the first time.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karin wrote: "Thanks, I thought so, but this is my first time with this style category. ."

It's always good to ask questions - even if you have to ask them twice because I was a dullard and didn't..."

Yes, I can see there is a learning curve here! I made a number of rookie mistakes this first time around that I would do differently now, including certain reading choices, planning too much too soon, etc.

Karin wrote: "I would do differently now, including certain reading choices, planning too much too soon, etc. "

Part of it, too, is deciding why you're doing the challenge. For some, it is just a fun way to choose what to read next, for others an opportunity to read things they might not have otherwise tripped over, still others a challenge to read one more book than if left to their own devices. And not every reason applies to every book or even every season.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karin wrote: "I would do differently now, including certain reading choices, planning too much too soon, etc. "

Part of it, too, is deciding why you're doing the challenge. For some, it is just a ..."

Yes, I can see that! I enjoy challenges and a bit of friendly competition. It gets me reading more, reading different things and is almost like playing a game in some ways (now that can be taken different ways, but like a board game or friendly sports game). I tend to do better if I'm competing, even though I rarely come in "first" or whatever that is. This time my goal is to see if I can do a big finish, and I have only 4 books to go (2 are partway done, and at least one of the others will be easy to read quickly as it's the Magical Realism one I chose--I've read the author before).

This time around, my reading goals in life are different than they were in December as I'm trying to reduce my fiction and do some more serious reads for now, so I am trying to decide what I want to be "competitive" in. The Western Canon has plenty of options for that if I can work the ones I'd like to read into the RwS,

This last one got me to finally put my money where my mouth is and listen to Don Quixote on audiobook to see if I liked it better than I did in print because I wanted to get big points for a book (so far it's higher than any of the high scoring books listed on the Readerboard last time I checked, but I won't get most strategic and wasn't out for that this time. It was 80 points)

I personally like the idea of developing a strategy. (this is why I once wrote a sestina because the challenge of it was intriguing, but it was a personal one for my mother and 3 other women and nothing anyone else would appreciate). I think I had the most fun figuring out what to read for the winter CiV, but have already decided I'm probably not going to do the CiV this spring.

I tend to like the planning part and really enjoy trying to find books that I would like to read whether I ever get around to all the tasks or not. I give preference to books I don't get to in past seasons when planning the current one. Sometimes I plug those books into other challenges with other groups. Either way, I continue to track them until they are read.

I do try to cross-plan my books.

Hmm. Just looked at the Canon for Charles Dickens. It lists "Christmas Stories". Is that the same as the Christmas Books on GR, specifically Christmas Books: A Christmas Carol, The Chimes, The Cricket on the Hearth, The Battle of Life, The Haunted Man?

Bea wrote: "Hmm. Just looked at the Canon for Charles Dickens. It lists "Christmas Stories". Is that the same as the Christmas Books on GR, specifically [book:Christmas Books: A Christmas Carol, The Chimes, Th..."

Any/all of those qualify for Canon points.

(Edited above, in case you read the first version, which wasn't at all clear.)

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Bea wrote: "Hmm. Just looked at the Canon for Charles Dickens. It lists "Christmas Stories". Is that the same as the Christmas Books on GR, specifically [book:Christmas Books: A Christmas Carol, Th..."

I have one book which contains all five stories. So I can claim Canon points for that book, correct?

Bea wrote: "I have one book which contains all five stories. So I can claim Canon points for that book, correct? "

Yes. It's almost like Christmas in July!

It's 70 degrees in Chicago in mid February :)

71 degrees in SC today.

If this fits in a category, how many jumbo points would this get? I don't see a number of words, just a file size on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/James-Joyces-C...

It doesn't say on GR, either. But it has EVERYTHING in it, unlike some of the other collections. It seems as it's only been done as an e-book.

James Joyce's Complete Works (illustrated) Deluxe Edition

It would get 25 jumbo points because even The Complete Novels of James Joyce has over 1000 pages. I would think you would be better served posting the books individually, and, personally, I'm not sure anyone would want to tackle all of Joyce in one season.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "It would get 25 jumbo points because even The Complete Novels of James Joyce has over 1000 pages. I would think you would be better served posting the books individually, and, perso..."

That depends on whether or not I go for most strategic reader or for completing something--I'd have to weight how many points I could get per book for an average. I am not sure that I'll read it, but am thinking it over since Irish is a shelf of the month in another group. Having never read Joyce, it's hard to say. But I'd FAR rather read The Complete Novels of Joyce than all of his works. If, however, I loathe his novels I'll quit. I have quite a tenacity at times.

I am still thinking through what I'm going to do, so thanks for pointing me to a better choice.

Karin wrote: "If this fits in a category, how many jumbo points would this get? I don't see a number of words, just a file size on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/James-Joyces-C......"

Having just finished Ulysses..... I would say most people might be turned off from Joyce completely. I had to force myself to finish it. I've read other books by Joyce which were pleasurable.... but Ulysses...I think was just a vanity project.

Ed wrote: "Having just finished Ulysses..... I would say most people might be turned off from Joyce completely. I had to force myself to finish it. I've read other books by Joyce which were pleasurable.... but Ulysses...I think was just a vanity project..."

Thanks. I'll see if I can find something long enough that works. Or something else. Or maybe I will grin and bear it, but I am doubtful now. Ratings from reading friends range from 1 to 5 stars, so that's not very helpful.

I still have time to figure this out.

Karin wrote: "I still have time to figure this out. "

What task did you see him working for?

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karin wrote: "I still have time to figure this out. "

What task did you see him working for?"

I am thinking ahead. We still have many tasks to go. I have another group to read him for. Or if there is a square peg.

Karin wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karin wrote: "I still have time to figure this out. "

What task did you see him working for?"

I am thinking ahead. We still have many tasks to go. I have another group ..."

OK, I wondered if you did see him already. I think there may be a place for him, but nothing is yet set in stone.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: OK, I wondered if you did see him already. I think there may be a place for him, but nothing is yet set in stone. .."

I just like to plan ahead, and this one takes time, (of course, since some tasks can't be assigned until the previous challenge is over) am thinking through my other groups to combine reads or themes or shelves with this challenge (as, no doubt others do as well!)

Would Suki Kim count as non-western? The dust jacket of her book Without You, There Is No Us: My Time with the Sons of North Korea's Elite states: "Born and raised in Seoul, she lives in New York." No comment about whether or not she has become an American citizen, although she has lived in America for enough years to be able to apply for citizenship if she wanted to.

And then there is Silvia Moreno-Garcia. Her bio says: Mexican by birth, Canadian by inclination..

Thanks!

Deedee wrote: "Would Suki Kim count as non-western? The dust jacket of her book Without You, There Is No Us: My Time with the Sons of North Korea's Elite states: "Born and raised in ..."

Wikipedia says Suki Kim's is a naturalized American citizen.

Wikipedia says Silvia Moreno-Garcia is Canadian. There is an interview linked with her Wikipedia page where she calls Canada home and refers to Canadians as "we" and we'll go with western for her as well.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Deedee wrote: "Would Suki Kim count as non-western? The dust jacket of her book Without You, There Is No Us: My Time with the Sons of North Korea's Elite states: "Born..."

Thanks for checking.

There are a lot of authors who move around like that -- Isabel Allende (Peru? USA? I seem to remember she counts for USA), Alexander McCall Smith (Zimbabwe? Scotland? I think he's Scotland), J.M. Coetzee (South Africa? Australia? I think he's Australia), and so on. It seems that a lot of successful non-western authors promptly move to a western nation to live out their lives :)

Is that the nw-born author remains in a nw country the sole criteria for determining a nw book? For example, I am thinking about A Concise Chinese-English Dictionary for Lovers by Xiaolu Guo. She was born in China and is apparently a Brit now, but her books were written in Chinese. I was thinking that the original language in which the books are written might be a good criteria as well. Guidance and thoughts? Thanks.

Andrea wrote: "Is that the nw-born author remains in a nw country the sole criteria for determining a nw book? For example, I am thinking about A Concise Chinese-English Dictionary for Lovers by [au..."

We use birth plus citizenship. This author is on our nonwestern list, which might be of interest to you. See the Quick Links thread.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "We use birth plus citizenship. This author is on our nonwestern list, which might be of interest to you. See the Quick Links thread. ."

What happens if the author is a dual citizen? Do we go by the 2nd, Western citizenship?

Karin wrote: "What happens if the author is a dual citizen? Do we go by the 2nd, Western citizenship? "

Probably, but I prefer not to answer generalities. If you have a specific author, I'll be glad to look at him/her.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karin wrote: "What happens if the author is a dual citizen? Do we go by the 2nd, Western citizenship? "

Probably, but I prefer not to answer generalities. If you have a specific author, I'll be gl..."

Thanks. I'm a dual citizen, so thought of it, but I also know that there are some countries that you can never lose citizenship. If I find a specific author, I'll let you know.

Does The House of the Dead by Fyodor Dostoyevsky count for the canon as a short novel?

Karen Michele wrote: "Does The House of the Dead by Fyodor Dostoyevsky count for the canon as a short novel?"

Yes, that is now marked for the Canon. In addition, there is this, The Short Novels of Dostoyevsky, which includes these titles which we would also mark as Canon.

The Gambler
Notes from Underground
Uncle's Dream
The Eternal Husband
The Double
The Friend of the Family

Malala Yousafzai is Pakistani. Is that non-Western?

Bea wrote: "Malala Yousafzai is Pakistani. Is that non-Western?"

Yes, she is on the nonwestern list linked in the Quick Links post.

Wouldn't anything from India and the Middle East that is listed on the Western Canon also count for non-western?

Karin wrote: "Wouldn't anything from India and the Middle East that is listed on the Western Canon also count for non-western?"

Not necessarily.