The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "For those interested, here are the Harvard classics (all the fiction) listed in alphabetic order. They are for your e-reader only. You can download them individually. Hope this helps someone.

http..."

A great link to have - thanks, Xan!

Kim wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I'm feeling darkness and gloom everywhere. They walk in the marshes at night and from the Three Jolly Bargemen to the forge at night; Miss Havisham's room is barely candle..."

Well, if you say something like, "I must really say it's very beautiful", you are, strictly speaking, not lying at all because even though you may not find it beautiful, that's what you must say. And you just said that.

It's actually quite simple to avoid lying - and you can't be held responsible for what meaning people contrue from your words, can you? ;-)

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Though I posted the finger lying comment I'm a bit skeptical. Learn a particular person's body language and you can probably interpret what they're thinking, but generalizing from the specific? I'v..."

You are right, Xan, that sounds like what in German would be called "kitchen psychology". I have my own ideas about when people are lying, for example signs of lying, to me, are

a) speaking more quickly (because liars tend to get excited and anxious when lying - that is unless they are inveterate liars),

b) adding a lot of detail (because the liar may feel that he has to corroborate his story, and thus he feels compelled to make up details).

Of couse, the problem is that a person can do either or both and still tell the truth. But generally, it best anyhow never to believe a word somebody else tells you ;-)

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "For those interested, here are the Harvard classics (all the fiction) listed in alphabetic order. They are for your e-reader only. You can download them individually. Hope this helps someone.

http..."

Thanks, I'll browse that list later. I don't know, though, if I can load a title on a German kindle.

Jean wrote: "Quite. Though children are funny when they try to lie. I remember one little boy who would open his eyes very wide and adopt an earnest expression - and I instantly knew he was lying! LOL

Perhaps ..."

It's always kind of funny, Jean, how easy it is for a teacher to notice when a student - even an older one - is telling a lie or has a bad conscience. In my older classes, I sometimes tell the students that what I take most ill is not so much the lying, which is bad enough, but sometimes understandable - but the bumbling incompetence with which they try to perform one of the most difficult cultural techniques of humankind.

Tristram wrote: "that sounds like what in German would be called "kitchen psychology"..."

I think we call it "cod psychology" in English.

Classics Illustrated pages 22&23:

Jean

I am now pining away. We need Hablot Browne.

I know :( There's nobody to match him ... Sometimes our Charlie was too headstrong!

Here's two examples of when it would have been better to lie. The problem with me is if I have no warning and am surprised I tend to say what I shouldn't before I know I shouldn't. :-)

Example one: A friend of mine (an ex-friend of mine but not for this reason) used to have long, beautiful hair, a shiny black color, hanging half way down her back. I knew her for years and years and that is how she looked. This is where it would have been a good idea for someone to say "oh, we saw your friend in the beauty shop yesterday getting her hair cut", but no, no one did. So that morning (it was in church) there I was talking to some people and someone behind me said my name and I turned and looked at a woman with hair about two inches long, and said "Oh my word, what happened to your hair?!!!!!" I think from that response and the look that was probably on my face, everyone knew what I was thinking. Her hair did look awful.

Next example wasn't me (luckily) but you'll be able to tell where I get it from.

My dad got old. That's just what happened, he fought it for ninety years and used to get angry in stores and restaurants if they gave him the senior citizen discount, but finally he admitted he was old. He stopped driving (thankfully) and once a day his church would bring him a meal, it was up to us to supply the other ones). One day I was sitting with him when one of the ladies from the church knocked on the door with his meal. I knew who she was right away even though I hadn't seen her in years, but dad looked at her and said; "Who are you?" and when she responded Diane Hoover, he said, "Boy, you got old." She did look older, but so did I. And him. With a little warning he may have been able to make up a lie, although with him you never knew what he was going to say.

Kim - you are sending me to bed tonight with a smile on my face (it's midnight here!) And I can't help thinking that I much prefer a world where people sometimes might say things like this to me, than a world where I would have to suspect everyone of lying - or at least dissembling!

I'm glad you are smiling. I wonder how long it took the church lady to smile again. :-)

Kim wrote: "I'm glad you are smiling. I wonder how long it took the church lady to smile again. :-)"

I feel your pain, Kim -- my dad completely lost his filter when he got to about 90, and it could be really embarrassing. That's one thing I don't miss! Worst was when my brother had him at a restaurant and a couple of bikers, one with a pony tail, sat at the booth behind them. My dad said, in a stage whisper, something along the lines of "look at the pony tail on that horse's ass!" My brother was afraid he might not get out alive.

As for hair... I work with lots of young women who try to be trendy. Lots of bizarre hair colors from day to day - pinks, purples, blues, greens. I've gotten used to that. But when one lady showed up as a platinum blonde one morning (a shocking shade that did NOT flatter her complexion) I was able to save myself with the non-committal comment, "Look at you! Wow!" It was the best I could do. But I didn't lie!

My dad - when he was still driving - used to do the dumbest things. There are a few intersections in the next town that are hard to see the other traffic, any of it. It's a "you can take a chance on pulling out on to the main street, but good luck if you make it" one of those, let's allow cars on both sides of the street to park anywhere and everywhere no matter what it does to the sight of the people actually driving on this street. Dad used these streets all the time, any time, and didn't seem to care what any other cars were doing. The older he got the less he seemed to care about what the other drives were doing and pulled out faster and faster. One day I asked him why he goes to that corner, to which he said he always did and always will. And I told him that it was almost impossible to see, how does he see the other cars, and he now said his famous comment that is still talked about - in my family anyway. Here it is:

"You just close your eyes and go."

I can't believe he lived to be 94 doing things like that.

What a nice way to start a day - okay, it's noon here, but since no one except me is at home, I can get my lunch whenever I feel like it - to read your wonderful stories about outspoken people.

My grandmother was a woman who did not mince her words. Once, she had to go to hospital, and the doctor and the nurse were examining her, when I came into her room and asked her how she was getting on. She said something like, "Not too well, honestly. The doctor here is a bungling idiot, and I can tell that he does not have a lot of experience. The nurse is not much better, but may well excuse her ineptitude with dim-wittedness." I noticed how the doctor and the nurse tensed up and told my grandma, "They can hear you, you know?" And she said, "Yes, I know. That's why I can't speak openly to you but have to tone my criticism down a bit. Later, I'll tell you more." - How wonderfully diplomatic.

Tristram wrote: "What a nice way to start a day - to read your wonderful stories about outspoken people.
"

Someone should compile these stories. It would make a great bathroom book!

Mary Lou - You do know I have purple hair don't you? I'm neither young nor trendy, but have it in a "Why not?" spirit. Think of it like a man wearing a kilt. You wear it (if you're entitled) in a spirit of pride and defiance. When my hair grew back after being bald for so many months (due to chemo) I vowed it would never be boring brown/grey again. My profile picture shows it as magenta, which is what it fades to after a few shampoos, having started out as violet.

Yes, people sometimes say to me in great surprise, without thinking, "You've got purple hair!" I just laugh! So much better than if they try to be "polite" :)

It took Chris a week or so to get used to it. But then he dealt with my baldness by "patting the head of the Buddha for luck" on his way past my chair, and now he calls me the "purple-headed Jeanie" (I assume after the "purple-headed mountain" in the hymn, "All things Bright and Beautiful")!

Good for you, Jean. I love it when people do interesting things with their hair, and I'm partial to purple, red, and blue.

Thank you Xan :) When I was tiny, I said to my mum that I wanted blue hair, and she said it was only old ladies that had that (a "blue rinse" on grey hair, she meant). Well, I think I qualify now anyway , but my hairdresser says that blue would be hard to maintain. On my last visit he offered to do my roots navy blue with the ends as magenta. (That's the latest way to have two colours, apparently.) But if it's the latest thing and will soon be fashionable then it won't be unique, will it? No, not for me.

No, you'll have to come up with something else.

Haha - no I didn't know your hair was purple, Jean! Is it closer to lilac or a darker shade? If you want unique, you'll have to go back to the mousy brown/grey - very few women embrace that anymore, myself included! But I don't think I'll ever be bold enough to go with a color that doesn't exist on human heads naturally. More power to you!

Funny thing about the internet... I always tend to think whoever's on the other side of that screen is just like me (that's solipsism, isn't it?), and never cease to be surprised when I learn otherwise.

By the way, the loveliest "non-traditional" hair I've seen was a frosty blue color that faded into almost a silver. It looked like a snowy field in the light of a full moon. Regrettably, the girl changed to green after a few days.

Wonderful malachite green or putrid pale green? Not that I'm trying to influence anyone.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Wonderful malachite green or putrid pale green? Not that I'm trying to influence anyone."

Both, actually! The trend around here seems to be fading colors - they start dark, or at least more vibrant, and fade into a lighter shade.

Mary Lou,

I need to get out more. I don't see this yet live near you.

Thanks to my father, again, my hair began going grey when I was about 25 years old. My dad had grey hair since his 30s, but I didn't want to have grey hair in my 30s, my 20s, or anything else that had a number in it. So, the coloring began, and every month since I was 25 I colored my hair. At first only the roots, now it would take a lot more than root coloring. I was sick of it by the time I hit 40, by the time I was 50 I was wondering how dumb it will look if I live into my 90s and I'm walking around with brown hair. Chocolate brown some time, Brazilian brown sometimes, chestnut brown, and on and on. Oh, they all end up looking.....
brown.

Then I got skin cancer on the top of my head - a pretty good amount of it, and couldn't color my hair, I didn't even have much hair on the top of my head anyway, they shaved it off. When it started growing back the grey started going wild. However, somewhere during the first months of skin cancer, I got so interested in watching the colors change I never colored it again. And it is taking a really long time to turn completely, so I've become annoyed waiting for it. Only about half is grey. Someone suggested I just starte coloring my hair grey, I can't remember my answer to that one, but I'm not coloring my hair grey at the moment.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Good for you, Jean. I love it when people do interesting things with their hair, and I'm partial to purple, red, and blue."

The most interesting thing I've ever done with my hair is cut it - not completely, though - that would be too interesting.

Mary Lou wrote: "I always tend to think whoever's on the other side of that screen is just like me (that's solipsism, isn't it?)"

No, that's assuming the best about everyone ...

Tristram,

I'm at the point where more of my hair is on the floor than on my head. And I don't mean a haircut.

Mary Lou - actually you can see me on the other side of your screen ... my profile pic at the moment has me in the background, but you can expand it and see the magenta. My hair starts out as darkish "Cadbury" purple (no, not lilac at all) and goes through burgundy to magenta over about 5 weeks.

The blue sounds gorgeous, but you'd need whitish or grey hair to start with I think, and I won't let them use any chemicals such as bleach, however they term it as a "lightener". It makes me think that the idea of roots changing to another colour might well be The Next Big Thing though, as my hairdresser said!

So, judging by what you said, looking at the other side of my screen ... Am I to assume that you are a nice comfortable lady in a long gown and mob cap, given to story-telling by the hearth whilst occupied in darning an old sock?

Kim - yes, that sounds horrendous - and I'd be the same :(

When mine first started growing back it was like "peach fluff" and I thought I'd have no colour at all! Then it got a bit longer - and was curly for the first time in my life! I have a pic in my GR photos (at the swannery) at that stage. When I talked to the hairdressers about "no chemicals" they sorted out a way of colouring it by putting the dye on and wrapping it in little bits of foil, so none of it ever touched my head except briefly when they washed it off.

Now my hair seems normal, but because I am fanatical about avoiding cancer (I never use wireless technology or i-phones either!) I still only let them use organic dyes. It's an option if you ever change your mind :)

The subject seems to have moved on ... is this better than toilet paper?

My friend with cancer that I think I've told you about, when she had breast cancer a few years ago, lost her hair, which was also blond and straight, when it grew back it was curly and brown. Now that she is having chemo again it has all fallen out again. I'm curious to see what type of hair she'll have after this round of treatments.

Oh, and thinking of cancer, I'm not sure if I tell you this, but I do think it, you are the most cheerful person dealing with that than anyone I have ever known. And unfortunately I've known many.

Tristram wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "I always tend to think whoever's on the other side of that screen is just like me (that's solipsism, isn't it?)"

No, that's assuming the best about everyone ..."

Hardly! But the good Lord knows I've become quite well-accustomed to my own faults and can readily justify them to my own satisfaction if I feel the need. :-)

Unfortunately we all seem to ... sometimes I think it's a modern disease - and then I remember that they knew about it in Ancient Egypt, and Ancient Greece. Hippocrates apparently used the word "carcinoma". I do think there is more of it now though, in our modern world.

Thank you Kim :) I actually think it's good that we talk about cancer more, and feel so sorry for people in the past who died a lonely death because they felt they had to keep it secret. Even now, I hear cases eg. one woman left her job without saying why, and nobody knew until after her death. But people like to help - and she could probably have had a lot of emotional support and friendship from her colleagues, but they didn't get that chance. It seems misguided to me and makes me so sad. But then I had a neighbour who crossed the road rather than speak to me initially - but I was the same person! It's a complicated issue for sure!

Jean wrote: "Am I to assume that you are a nice comfortable lady in a long gown and mob cap, given to story-telling by the hearth whilst occupied in darning an old sock? "

Well... I am comfortable, but I've traded in my long gown for yoga pants, a Paul McCartney tour t-shirt, and a flannel robe! And I sit by the hearth, but am too lazy to build a fire. Rather than darning socks, I read and watch TV.* My poor husband was the unwitting victim of a bait and switch operation.

*Today, it's the BBC adaptation of Elizabeth Gaskell's North and South. I haven't read the book, but the show is excellent!

I have people come and hang out with me when their cancer is getting pretty bad. I always assume since everyone knows I am not a cheerful, positive person in the first place I won't be telling them to just get up and get active again and you'll be fine. I really do know people that say that to people dealing with cancer and it drives me crazy.

When my mom's cancer was getting worse and worse, and chemo was making her so tired and sick; my dad and sister were still telling her to "get up and go somewhere and you'll get better". She used to leave and they would be so happy she was going and doing things again, but the things she was doing was coming to my house so she could just lay down and sleep, or cry, or both. When she died, after months of feeding tubes, a tracheostomy, some sort of machine we'd use to get the liquid out of her lungs; after all this my dad was absolutely astonished when she died. He didn't think she was that sick because she wasn't allowed to talk about it around them.

Later my best friend got colon cancer and the exact same thing happened. I'm beginning to be the place to go if you have cancer, I wonder if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

It just occurred to me that many of the people I see the most of have cancer or some illness, or are in nursing homes. I wonder if I'm crazy.

Jean wrote: " I actually think it's good that we talk about cancer more, and feel so sorry for people in the past who died a lonely death because they felt they had to keep it secret. "

I'm with you, Jean, but I guess everyone has to handle it in their own way. Both my sisters-in-law died of cancer within weeks of one another. They had very different personalities, but both were very private and guarded about their illnesses, and very selective about with whom they shared things. I honored that, of course, and did what I could to be supportive of them and my brothers within those parameters. But you're right that people like to help. In their cases, the most helpful thing was to try to maintain some sense of normality.

Mary Lou - Yes, of course you have to respect people's boundaries. What I think is misguided, is when there is a sense of what is "correct" behaviour ie not to speak of it for fear of breaking social convention.

And I too thought that dramatisation of North and South was excellent. Have you recognised Thorin Oakenshield yet? (Richard Armitage).

Kim - I think they just want you to be you! To be the same, and to listen, and accept them at whatever stage they're at, whatever they're feeling. And clearly you do that superbly :)

There isn't really a "right way", I don't think, but sometimes it seems obvious what's a "wrong way".

This has gone completely off topic, so I'm heading over to the pub with my response! See you there!

Oh, I LOVE your hair story, Jean. Brendan has said for years that he wants a purple beard. Now that he's turned 60 he wants purple hair. What next? A purple-striped torso? Ahhh, whatever! I used to worry about these things - the what-would-people-think? tyranny! Now, well really, why not spotty dotty hair and a striped beard?! Well, why not??!!

Sorry, I'll bow out of this thread now ...

Good to see you Hilary! I'm put in mind of the great Billy Connolly ... but like you I too will bow out of this thread, but daren't go to the pub as it's already on its way to midnight here ;)

Hello, Hillary. Hillary sent me an invitation to join The Old Curiosity Shop. If not for Hillary I don't know when I would have found you all. I think when none of you are looking I'll plant a GPS tracker somewhere in the Bargemen or in the carriage you all took to get here. Just in case. :-)

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Hello, Hillary. Hillary sent me an invitation to join The Old Curiosity Shop. If not for Hillary I don't know when I would have found you all. I think when none of you are looking I'll plant a GPS ..."

Oh, don't worry Xan, when all this happened we were going through our friends making sure we didn't miss any, so we would have found you if you hadn't found us first! :-)

Kim wrote: " if a friend of yours asks how you like her new, absolutely atrocious hair cut, what else am I supposed to do? :-) ."

Interesting is a very useful word there. "Why, what an interesting haircut! It makes you look like a totally different person!"

Kim wrote: " he now said his famous comment that is still talked about - in my family anyway. Here it is:

"You just close your eyes and go."

I can't believe he lived to be 94 doing things like that. "

My mother in law, also driving into her 90s, go to the point where she couldn't turn her head to look back when she backed out of parking lots (the parking lot at the senior center requires backing out) or the main street in town (angle parking). So she would just start backing up and as long as nobody honked she would just keep going. If somebody honked she would stop and wait for them to go by, then start backing out again.

Fortunately it's a small town and she never got killed, though she had several minor fender-benders (which she always denied, a new dent would show up on her car and we would ask her and she would just say somebody must have hit her when she was parked.) Once she hit a deer, couldn't deny that she hit it because it was dead on the road, but she claimed that she didn't run into it, it ran into the side of her car, even though her front fender had fresh dents and there was a scratch all the way down the side of the car where it had slid by.

The only time she admitted that she might have made a driving mistake was when she tried to turn into her daughter's driveway and wound up when her front wheels in the verge of the pond and had to get help getting her car out. There was no way of getting out of admitting that one. But that was the only one.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Hello, Hillary. Hillary sent me an invitation to join The Old Curiosity Shop. If not for Hillary I don't know when I would have found you all. I think when none of you are looking I'll plant a GPS ..."

I occasionally go to the profile pages of posters I respect and look at the groups they belong to to see whether there are interesting groups I've missed learning about.

Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: " if a friend of yours asks how you like her new, absolutely atrocious hair cut, what else am I supposed to do? :-) ."

Interesting is a very useful word there. "Why, what an interesting..."

Oh, I love that one! I'm going to write it down and put it in my pocketbook to have it on hand for the next woman who decides to do a total hair change.

Everyman wrote: "My mother in law, also driving into her 90s, go to the point where she couldn't turn her head to look back when she backed out of parking lots....

Oh, but that was such a wonderful idea! I'm laughing anyway, just keep blowing the horn, it sounds like something my dad would have tried. I wonder if they are related? Dad came home once with the mirror knocked off the side of the car, and he said it must have fell off when the car was parked right" out in the road" and he had to go around it. No matter how you looked at this explanation, he had to have hit the other car, but he always swore he didn't.

Everyman wrote: "I occasionally go to the profile pages of posters I respect and look at the groups they belong to to see whether there are interesting groups I've missed learning about."

Good idea. Thank.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I occasionally go to the profile pages of posters I respect and look at the groups they belong to to see whether there are interesting groups I've missed learning about."

Good ide..."

I do the same thing.