The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Kim wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: " if a friend of yours asks how you like her new, absolutely atrocious hair cut, what else am I supposed to do? :-) ."

Interesting is a very useful word there. "Why, wh..."

I once used a similar sentence when a colleague of mine had a new hair-cut, and I did not succeed. Maybe because I left out an important word. I said, "Oh you've got a new haircut - it makes you look like a person."

Tristram wrote: "I once used a similar sentence....:

You're a nut.

One of the most popular nuts at work ;-)

Tristram wrote: "I said, "Oh you've got a new haircut - it makes you look like a person." ."

As opposed, presumably, to a lion or porcupine

At least somebody understands me.

Really, someone does? I had no clue.

:-D

"He has Great Expectations"

Chapter 18

A. A. Dixon

1905

"He has Great Expectations" In the Collins Pocket Edition (1905)

Text Illustrated:

"My name," he said, "is Jaggers, and I am a lawyer in London. I am pretty well known. I have unusual business to transact with you, and I commence by explaining that it is not of my originating. If my advice had been asked, I should not have been here. It was not asked, and you see me here. What I have to do as the confidential agent of another, I do. No less, no more."

Finding that he could not see us very well from where he sat, he got up, and threw one leg over the back of a chair and leaned upon it; thus having one foot on the seat of the chair, and one foot on the ground.

"Now, Joseph Gargery, I am the bearer of an offer to relieve you of this young fellow your apprentice. You would not object to cancel his indentures, at his request and for his good? You would want nothing for so doing?"

"Lord forbid that I should want anything for not standing in Pip's way," said Joe, staring.

"Lord forbidding is pious, but not to the purpose," returned Mr Jaggers. "The question is, Would you want anything? Do you want anything?"

"The answer is," returned Joe, sternly, "No."

I thought Mr. Jaggers glanced at Joe, as if he considered him a fool for his disinterestedness. But I was too much bewildered between breathless curiosity and surprise, to be sure of it.

"Very well," said Mr. Jaggers. "Recollect the admission you have made, and don't try to go from it presently."

"Who's a-going to try?" retorted Joe.

"I don't say anybody is. Do you keep a dog?"

"Yes, I do keep a dog."

"Bear in mind then, that Brag is a good dog, but Holdfast is a better. Bear that in mind, will you?" repeated Mr. Jaggers, shutting his eyes and nodding his head at Joe, as if he were forgiving him something. "Now, I return to this young fellow. And the communication I have got to make is, that he has great expectations."

Joe and I gasped, and looked at one another.

"I am instructed to communicate to him," said Mr. Jaggers, throwing his finger at me sideways, "that he will come into a handsome property. Further, that it is the desire of the present possessor of that property, that he be immediately removed from his present sphere of life and from this place, and be brought up as a gentleman — in a word, as a young fellow of great expectations."

Commentary:

The scene in the local public house in which attorney Jaggers in the un-illustrated pages of All the Year Round, the illustrated folio sheets of Harper's Weekly in serialization, and in various illustrated editions other than the Chapman and Hall 1862, 1864, and 1868 volumes with wood-engravings by Marcus Stone is memorable enough, but its significance in the novel is certainly underscored by the presence in the text of such illustrations as the frontispiece Mr. Jaggers at The Three Jolly Bargemen, one of just four plates by A. K. Kipps in the 1862 Gardner A. Fuller (pirated) edition. With his detailed knowledge of the law and his penchant for cross-examining his interlocutors in the public house, as well as his London clothing denoting his professional status, Jaggers is exotic to the frequenters of the pub. As a criminal attorney, Jaggers translated from the text to an image must retain his distinctive manner (suggestive of his unique "voice") and a knowing, enigmatical presence quite out of keeping with the sleepy atmosphere of the Kentish village. Exuding an air of mystery, Jaggers (based, according to Paroissien on an actual lawyer, James Harmer [1777-1853]), carries with him the taint of the criminal underworld of London. His image is much sharper in this lithograph by Dixon than in the small-scale wood-engraving by John McLenan, who nevertheless distinguishes the attorney as a professional among the village yokels by his beaver hat and tailcoat.

Like the book's first illustrator, John McLenan, A. A. Dixon seems to have understood the critical role that the criminal attorney will play in Pip's London existence, although McLenan (working only from one serial installment to another) could not have known at the point he created his image of Jaggers for the 9 February 1861 installment how the legal mastermind would ultimately connect Miss Havisham and Magwitch to Pip and Estella. Whereas American illustrator A. K. Kipps shows Jaggers' impact upon those gathered in the taproom — including Wopsle (left, reading newspaper account of "a highly popular murder"), an unidentified agricultural laborer in a linen smock frock, as well as Pip and Joe to the right — A. A. Dixon focuses on the impact of Jaggers' news on Pip and Joe only. While Jaggers seems calm enough as he points to Pip, the recipients of his message seem utterly stunned, and blond-haired Joe protectively moves to put his arm around the boy, guessing perhaps that the "Great Expectations" will mean his loss of Pip as his apprentice and companion at the forge. Such details of the inn's interior setting as Dixon provides (the table, chairs, the curtain, and the small glass panes characteristic of an eighteenth-century building) contrast the fashionably dressed figure of the lawyer, whose books, top-hat, and gloves Dixon adds with almost photographic precision — in contrast to the impressionist verve and energy of the theatrical scene At The Three Jolly Bargemen by Harry Furniss in The Charles Dickens Edition (1910).

Not all illustrators of the nineteenth century editions have chosen to depict this pivotal moment: Marcus Stone in his 1862 frontispiece Taking Leave of Joe, for example, depicts the consequences of Jaggers' announcement, and both Sol Eytinge, Jr., in Jaggers (1867) and F. A. Fraser in the 1876 Household Edition volume show Jaggers in his usual milieu, carrying on transactions in the street in Little Britain near his office with members of the criminal underclass in Say another word. . .. Dixon's treatment of his subject seems most closely related to H. M. Brock's illustration, although (rather more plausibly) Brock shows both Joe and Pip sitting down as they receive the momentous news.

Kim wrote: ""He has Great Expectations"

Chapter 18

A. A. Dixon

1905

"He has Great Expectations" In the Collins Pocket Edition (1905)

Text Illustrated:

"My name," he said, "is Jaggers, and I am a lawyer ..."

Well ... I'm going to vote no to liking this illustration. Not that I spend much time in country inns, pubs, watering holes and the like, but what respectable pub has tablecloths? As I look around the Three Jolly Bargemen and see you all relaxing after a hard week's work, there are no tablecloths in our local.

I'm not so sure Peter. Couldn't it perhaps be a way of differentiating between the rabble and a distinguished patron? Someone already commented that they were surprised Jaggers would stay at an inn. Perhaps the innkeeper too was surprised, and the greatest compliment they could think of for their honoured guest was to provide a tablecloth? It's a bit like serving someone using the "posh china". I'm sure they had "exclusive" rooms too away from us noisy hoards!

The first thing I noticed was the hat on the table, I thought it was a magician's hat. The next was that Joe and Pip looked like they were seeing a ghost. When I was young my parents were serious drinkers. That meant not only were two cases of beer delivered to our house every week, which embarrassed me terribly, we also spent a lot of time in one barroom or another. I was so glad when I reached the age when they thought I was old enough to stay home. Anyway, even though I can picture these places in my head still, I just can't remember if there were table cloths but I really doubt it. I wonder if you can still take children to bars every evening or if it isn't allowed anymore.

Wow Kim! I come from a teetotal family so have exactly the opposite experience! I thought the stereotype was the kiddies sat outside on the pavement waiting for ma and pa to come out of the pub ... but nowadays with them all serving food, I think kids are allowed in the section where meals are served but not in the bar itself. A few years ago we used to have national "opening times", but I think that's all gone too.

Kim wrote: "The first thing I noticed was the hat on the table, I thought it was a magician's hat. The next was that Joe and Pip looked like they were seeing a ghost. "

And where's the Settles? Just a stool and chair.

I really love Dixon's illustration because, like Kim, I found the detail with the top hat so telling. It's really like a magician's head, and Jaggers is some kind of magician here, pulling those great expectations out of his hat. What I also like is the use of shadows on the wall, being a great fan of film noir: They already seem to imply that these great expectations are anything but wholesome.

As to the tablecloths, I think that Jean is right: Pubs used to have better rooms for gentle folks who might happen to stay there, but on the other hand I think this was merely the case in wayside inns. The Jolly Bargemen would rarely be chanced upon by gentle folks, and that's why the publican would probably not have any tablecloths. Nevertheless, did not Jaggers propose to Joe that they should go to his house? Maybe, the scene is not the pub but the Gargery household, and there would definitely be tablecloths.

Being far from a teetotaller, I have spent a lot of evenings in pubs, usually with a good book, a pipe and one or two mugs of beer. I hardly go there anymore because you can no longer smoke there, and tobacco and good books belong together for me, I must confess - but I have NEVER seen a tablecloth in a pub, be it ever so respectable.

Don't some have "tap rooms" and "snugs"? I'm way out of my comfort area here, and wonder what mysteries lie behind the doors ;)

I don't know so much about British pubs, but in Germany, I have never seen those snugs and tap rooms. There are, sometimes, however, better rooms (with tablecloths) where you can eat something.

By the folk I've seen going in, these are for the "locals" or perhaps those who want to drink without much distraction?

Kim wrote: "Everyman wrote: "My mother in law, also driving into her 90s, go to the point where she couldn't turn her head to look back when she backed out of parking lots....

Oh, but that was such a wonderfu..."

We took the keys away from my dad when he was in his mid 80s and started hitting things in parking lots and running red lights, much to the terror of those in the car with him. If he was willing to risk his own safety I figured that was his own business, but I was NOT willing to let him plow down a woman trying to push a stroller across the street, or a group of people waiting at a bus stop.

Everyman, I'm glad your MIL didn't back over some child who'd stooped down to look at something behind her car. Yikes.

Tristram wrote: "Kim,

Was it not Mr. Bucket's finger that played a prominent role in Bleak House? What Mr. Bucket and Mr. Jaggers have in common is that both of them are men who seem to be very successful in their..."

The smell of soap that adheres to his hands might indicate that it may be part of his profession to whitewash people, i.e. to make somebody seem innocent who is actually guilty of a crime.
Ahhh, our very own Johnny Cochran (OJ trial)! Jaggers is definitely a very passionate man, that's for sure. :)

Tristram wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Though I posted the finger lying comment I'm a bit skeptical. Learn a particular person's body language and you can probably interpret what they're thinking, but generaliz..."

a) speaking more quickly (because liars tend to get excited and anxious when lying - that is unless they are inveterate liars),
Yet another example of why I didn't care for Mr. Macawber...His nervous energy and flowery speeches made him all the more disingenuous to me.

As many of you have said, the growing dissension and now fracture is officially visible of Pip from Joe and the forge. Pip has officially come into means to become the gentleman he's wanted to be since meeting Estella, he is educated and will continue to educate himself, a separation of class within a household, all of these tensions have culminated in creating the separation. However, the differences between the two men run even deeper than what is read on the surface.

What runs deep within the fracture of the Gargery household is emotional intelligence...Only Joe exhibits signs of being able to navigate through the emotional oceans created by everybody else, while both Mrs. Gargery and Pip lack the ability. Joe may not be educated in the traditional sense, but he is better equipped in life because of his emotional awareness; the ability to harness emotions and apply them to tasks like thinking and problem solving; and the ability to manage emotions, which includes commanding his own emotions and cheering up or calming down other people.

Dickens captures Joe's deep emotions exceptionally well in these chapters when he writes,

Mr. Jaggers had looked on at this, as one who recognized in Joe the village idiot, and in me his keeper. When it was over, he said, weighing in his hand the purse he had ceased to swing:
"Now, Joseph Gargery, I warn you this is your last chance. No half measures with me. If you mean to take a present that I have it in charge to make you, speak out, and you shall have it. If on the contrary you mean to say — " Here, to his great amazement, he was stopped by Joe's suddenly working round him with every demonstration of a fell pugilistic purpose.

Which I meantersay, cried Joe, that if you come into my place bull-baiting and badgering me, come out! Which I meantersay as sech if you're a man, come on! Which I meantersay that what I say, I meantersay and stand or fall by!

Then, later...

Joe laid his hand upon my shoulder with the touch of a woman. I have often thought him since, like the steam-hammer, that can crush a man or pat an egg-shell, in his combination of strength with gentleness. "Pip is that hearty welcome," said Joe, "to go free with his services, to honour and fortun', as no words can tell him. But if you think as Money can make compensation to me for the loss of the little child - what come to the forge - and ever the best of friends! — "

O dear good Joe, whom I was so ready to leave and so unthankful to, I see you again, with your muscular blacksmith's arm before your eyes, and your broad chest heaving, and your voice dying away. O dear good faithful Joe, I feel the loving tremble of your hand upon my arm, as solemnly this day as if it had been the rustle of an angel's wing!

Here, it became obvious to me how much at ease Joe is with himself; the dichotomy within him, his oak-like stature and strength intermingled with the benevolence of a man who understands...Who understands people and empathy. He is able to both control and act on his emotions (bull-badgering moment), and rightfully so. Biddy is correct when she mentioned to Pip, (view spoiler)[Joe is "proud," (hide spoiler)] (reference to Ch 19) and Joe is genuinely happy.

It will be interesting to see how Pip will navigate his life without what makes Joe, in his own right, quite a successful human being. From the looks of it, considering Pip's premature showmanship of hubris, the doom and gloom of this narrative may continue in spite of his new circumstances.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Jaggers is a perfect name for Jaggers. I get the feeling I'm being shived the entire time he's talking, leaving jagged wounds all over my body. And a very opinionated (judgmental) man for a man of ..."

His name is fitting to his personality, Xan, but I am under the impression (perhaps, it is nothing) Jaggers will continue to be somebody important in Pip's life...A Joe, so to speak, from another world...Maybe?

Peter mentions the repetition of words and actions in this chapter, and I happen to catch one detail where Pip remembers both Mr. Jaggers and Joe, at different times, have placed their hands on Pip's shoulders...

The stranger did not recognize me, but I recognized him as the gentleman I had met on the stairs, on the occasion of my second visit to Miss Havisham. I had known him the moment I saw him looking over the settle, and now that I stood confronting him with his hand upon my shoulder, I checked off again in detail, his large head, his dark complexion, his deep-set eyes, his bushy black eyebrows, his large watch-chain, his strong black dots of beard and whisker, and even the smell of scented soap on his great hand.

And then,

Joe laid his hand upon my shoulder with the touch of a woman.

Yes, Mr. Jaggers is a middle man in the whole scheme of things, he is boorish too...I do wonder if there may be a connection between Joe and Jaggers, as far as their role in Pip's life?

Ami wrote: "Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Jaggers is a perfect name for Jaggers. I get the feeling I'm being shived the entire time he's talking, leaving jagged wounds all over my body. And a very opinionated (jud..."

Ami

The jesture of placing a hand on Pip's shoulder is very interesting. Thanks for pointing it out. I am a big proponent of close reading and style. Words, how and when and why they are used in the context they are found fascinate me. I think much can be learned from considering the style in which the novel is presented.

Ami wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Kim,

Was it not Mr. Bucket's finger that played a prominent role in Bleak House? What Mr. Bucket and Mr. Jaggers have in common is that both of them are men who seem to be very su..."

... and a man who likes to be in control of situations and people, in some way an anancastic man, which would fit in with the washing fits.

Ami, your analysis of Joe is great! I have not seen things that way, and I am looking forward to your further posts!

Ami wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Kim,

Was it not Mr. Bucket's finger that played a prominent role in Bleak House? What Mr. Bucket and Mr. Jaggers have in common is that both of them are men who seem to be very su..."

Hmm... Jaggers as Lady Macbeth? Out, damned spot!

Not a bad parallel, Mary Lou. Maybe, Jaggers is busy trying to wash away not so much his own spots as those of his clients - spots that he helped cover up :-)