Imps of Goldstone Wood discussion
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Heartless Read-Through 2017
Week 1! I'm looking forward to the discussions this month and I hope you are too! Feel free to comment any time in answer to these questions but don't get too far ahead of us. I hardly know where to begin with questions, since this section of the story covered so many pages, but I hope you will help me and come up with some of your own. You can answer as many or as few as you like - but please add something to the discussion because it is no fun to do on my own.
First, there is a lot of symbolism and allegory in this story, in which people or objects represent something else or parallel a story in the real world. What symbolism and allegory do you see already? Or do you see any at all? Do you think it is accurate?
What do you think of the Prince of Farthestshore? Is he right to come barging in and take away the dragon scale from Una? Or was he to forward, as she said? Should he have proposed day one? Why is he still staying at the palace if she turned him down?
Does Una have a crush on Gervais or is it real love? How can you tell the difference from her actions?
Do you think Una is spoiled and/or annoying (like the book reviews say)? Why do you like or dislike her as a character? How can she grow as a person?
Is there some significance in Una's dreams? How does she interpret them? Or does she care at all? Do any of the other characters affect the dreams and their interpretations?
And just for fun, what would you choose to buy from the Twelve Year Market?
Emily wrote: "Week 1! I'm looking forward to the discussions this month and I hope you are too! Feel free to comment any time in answer to these questions but don't get too far ahead of us. I hardly know where..."
Eeep, discussion time! :D
I love the fact that Aethelbald comes in and takes the scale from Una. I do think the day-one proposal was a bit hasty, but still, it's an allegory, and if Aethelbald represents Jesus and Una represents the church, I feel like this is a good display of how God is waiting for us to let him into our hearts.
I don't think Una truly loves Gervais. I'm pretty sure it's just his flattery that's caught her attention; her "love" for him seems fleeting.
And if I went to the Seven Year Market, I think I'd buy the unicorn shrimp. Because, for one, the name, and secondly, the music. ;)
1.) I do see the allegory already and I agree with Liv about what it is. I do think it's accurate, or at least as accurate as any allegory can be given how it's impossible to capture all the facets of Jesus in one human-created fictional character.2.) Let's say I fell in love with Aethelbald a lot faster than Una did. ;) I like the fact that physically he's very plain and unnoticeable just like the Bible said Jesus would be, but there's just sooo much more going on beneath the surface. He's patient and kind and loving, but also strong and wise, etc. Without the setting of the allegory I wold have thought Aethelbald was way too forward proposing on day one. But within the allegory, isn't exactly what Jesus does with us? He loves us before we're even born and from the moment of our first breath, I believe He makes every effort, on every day of our lives, to draw us to Himself. It's our choice whether we accept His "proposals" or not. Aethelbald stayed at the palace despite being turned down because he knew the terrible consequences Una would have to face if she turned him down permanently and he wasn't going to just stop trying and give her over to that fate any more than Jesus will just stop trying to woo us and give us over to our terrible fates that we bring on ourselves if we reject Him.
3.) Una definitely had a crush on Gervais, same as half the women he interacted with, Nurse included. :p No, it was not real love. Honestly, I felt like, at that point in time, Una was too young, naive and sheltered to know what real love looks like. She didn't understand that real love goes deeper than a fleeting emotion that waxes and wanes like the moon. Gervais made all the right moves to make it *look* like he loved her, but Una was too naive to see that there was no (I assume) true feeling behind it. She also didn't seem to understand that the character of a potential love is just as important as their ability with romantic gestures, as shown by her stubbornness in holding on to the notion that Gervais might have really loved her even after finding out about his behavior and his debts.
4.) Una is most definitely spoiled. She's a young and sheltered princess after all, and very self-centered. (and for that matter, so is Felix!) I always find her actions frustrating, yet somehow she's never annoyed me. I guess this might be because she is the way she is in order for the allegory to work the way Anne Elisabeth intended, but it's also realistic that she is the way she is because of the way she's been raised. Also, as a person, she most certainly can grow and change, just like anyone else. She just has some lessons to learn and maturing to do.
5) Una's dream's have significance because (SPOILER ALERT) the REAL dragon is REALLY coming after her and talking to her in her sleep! *shudder* I don't feel like Una interprets her dreams because it's hard to interpret something you don't really remember when you wake up. :p
6) If I went to the Seven Year Market, I'd buy that rose figuring that blooms and wilts and blooms and wilts when you blink. I think that sounds really pretty and cool. :)
*rereads my own post* Wow, I'm wordy...
I'm going to be a little more wordy, and if it's alright, I'd like to make a few extra observations of my own. It's only three observations, though so hopefully it won't be too lengthy. My first observation will only make sense if you've read the rest of the series: On page 41, I noticed that the dining hall of Oriana palace is described as being built, "in the old style with enormous doors opening to the east and to the west." This is exactly how the Houses of Lights are described in later books. I wonder if it's possible that it actually *was* a House of Lights back in the days of King Abundiantus V? It was many hundreds of years ago after all, and later on in the series it sounds like the real purpose of many of the Houses of Lights got forgotten over time, so I can totally imagine one being transformed into a dining hall.
I'm also finding myself, on this, my second reading of Heartless, suddenly curious about Abundiantus V. As far as I can tell we haven't met him in the series as it stands, but I feel like he's already got a story too. I especially found it interesting to notice that his statue, which Una looks at and thinks about at one point, is holding a pair of spectacles. She thinks he must have been nothing like her, but now I'm wondering what he *was* like. Perhaps he was like her and her thinking something like that is very ironic.
And finally, I noted when Una had her second dream on page 82, (this is another SPOILER ALERT if you haven't read the book before) the Dragon says he's searched for Una for 5 years. Why only 5? Did he not know about her/play for her until she was 13? I would almost think it was because 13 is often considered such a significant age because it's when you're first really considered a teenager, but the Dragon was after Rosie since she was much younger than that, if I recall correctly, so that's probably not the reason. And if I've picked up the clues correctly, the Dragon was awake long before Una turned 13, so it's not like he didn't have the ability to look for her. Is 13 perhaps the age at which Una got her mother's ring, the significance of which we don't learn until the events of "Golden Daughter"??? Gah, so many theories spinning in my head! So many unanswered questions!
E.F.B. wrote: "I'm going to be a little more wordy, and if it's alright, I'd like to make a few extra observations of my own. It's only three observations, though so hopefully it won't be too lengthy. My first..."
(*sobs*) I can't wait for new Tales of Goldstone Wood to come!
If Una represents the church, it's very interesting because I think the church has so many of the same struggles. Her hair gets Tangled. She gets bored and then when stuff happens she gets too excited to react wisely.Really enjoying your comments!
Mod
Also, for those who are wondering, the Fan Art Contest is still starting this month, I'm just a little late on getting everything ready! :)
Wow, you all are amazing. Great questions, Emily. Loved your comments, E.F.B. :-)I'm just starting to read Heartless now, so I'm behind all you guys, but I'm enjoying the story so much after not reading it for many years. It's amazing what some space can do for my appreciation of a much-loved story.
It is hard to describe the feelings I have toward this story that I watched grow from a series of blog posts into a rough draft and eventually into an actual novel. I read all of these stories many times during their formation, so they are like my book-grandchildren. :-) And I am still amazed by their depth. Allegories are tricky to write and to read, and some people dislike them because they don't "accurately" depict God. But how complete and accurate are any of our ideas about God? Only when we see Him face to face will we know--and all through eternity we will learn more of his perfection. The purpose of an allegory is to give a hint or glimpse of truth from a different angle by presenting aspects of that truth in a different light. And ideally such stories whet our appetites to know God more fully and discover Him in Scripture and reality.
God has spoken to me in rich and amazing ways through these stories written by my daughter. As we read through the series, I will share times when He has brought scenes from these books to my mind during times of trial or testing. I hope you will share your stories too! For me, it has been humbling and gratifying to be connected with this series in an indirect way. :-)
Regarding the Twelve-Year Market, I was a little bit horrified about some of the dangerous wares sold there! I would love to read stories about what happened to the people who purchased items that day. :-D
I think I would buy some sea-unicorn fry, enjoy their songs for a while, and then release them into the ocean. Can they thrive in the Near World ocean, I wonder? The ocean part of this world is rather fascinating--the gates seem more "fluid" than in the Wood.
About Aethelbald's proposal, I always felt that he hadn't intended to propose that first day but got pushed into it by Felix--and being too honest and courageous to pretend or back out, he spoke up honestly. And he didn't leave after Una refused him because King Fidel needed his help, needed the warning of the danger to come--even though he didn't listen. It would be rather humiliating for a rejected suitor to hang around, but he never gave up on Una because he cared more for her safety than for his pride. In the context of an allegory, we can appreciate his unselfish love for her. But for people who don't realize this is an allegory, I can see why they would find his persistence annoying!
Una didn't have a clue was love really is. Her crush on Gervais was entirely imaginary. She saw in him what she thought she wanted in a suitor, not who he really was. It was all about her, not really about him. She took herself and her feelings far too seriously--and not seriously enough. I can related to her too well--I didn't have a clue about love when I was 18 either and made some stupid mistakes. Many readers see her as unbelievably immature. Well. I'm thinking maybe her character hits too close to home for many of us!
I do think Una is spoiled, and I have some sympathy for her since she lost her mother and was very sheltered. She is immature and petulant, yes, but she tries very hard to be brave and true. But what good does it do to be true to bad decisions and unfaithful people? It is so terribly hard to accept and admit that we have been wrong!!! :-( But that is one of the most important lessons to learn.
I love EFB's comments about hints regarding characters and events from later stories, though I don't dare comment. Someday, Lord willing, you will all get to read the stories of these characters I love so much. :-) Not that I have read them as they will be--the books haven't yet been written--but I know more than I can tell!
Okay, this is a rambling stream-of-consciousness post, but here it is! I so much enjoy reading your thoughts and sharing your love for this world. :-)
What is the 12 year market? Is it a magical disguise for its real purpose-- to trap Una? Or, is it genuinely people from the other world both good and bad sincerely interacting with the real world?
Is there any comparison in our world to it?
Definitely scratching my head on this one.
Una definitely makes the mistakes many young ladies make. Great teaching device for younger readers. I'm going to challenge my 12-year-old Martha to hit this again.
@Jill: Thank you for sharing your thoughts, they're very interesting! I look forward to any stories you choose to share with us. :)For me, I read this series for the first time over the course of several months starting in late January 2015, so I haven't been a fan as long as some of my fellow Imps, but it has still had impact on my life. It got me through my last few months of college for one thing. I waited to take some of the hardest courses until last (Statistics class *shudder*) and boy did I need the escape that this series provided from the stress of those final courses! I remember by the time I graduated, I was well into Dragonwitch, so the memory of that book along with some of the others are forever intertwined with some significant events in my life. Along with the escapism, the spiritual themes have resonated deeply with me and if I have any relevant memories come up in relation to those things, I'll try to share them as well.
Michael wrote: "What is the 12 year market? Is it a magical disguise for its real purpose-- to trap Una?
Or, is it genuinely people from the other world both good and bad sincerely interacting with the real worl..."
Since the Knights of Farthestshore and Prince Aethelbald himself were involved in the fair, I personally took the 12 year market as being genuinely what Sir Oeric said it was: "An ancient and time-honored tradition...that the people of the Far World visit the Near every twelve years so that we do not too soon forget one another." It sounded to me like maybe there was some agreement with a previous human ruler that this fair would happen. I didn't get the impression that there was any hidden purpose to it, though I did wonder about Torkum's excuse for having a dragon scale in his possession...
Excellent, yes. And yet, they hadn't been seen for 200 years. One thing this does very well is to create a sense of something old being rediscovered-- which adds to the mysterious element.OK, So, As with our lives, Jesus doesn't always protect us from falling into traps or extreme difficulty and yet, in that difficulty he gives us the wherewithal to persevere through it and deepen our faith and grow.
Aethelbald Didn't protect her from going into the tent, but he stepped in, one supposes, before Luna would've been irrevocably
captured or something.
This sets up one of the most profound questions about the book: why does God allow such a promising Princess to go through such horrible gut wrenching trials and experiences with dragons???
Jill wrote: " It would be rather humiliating for a rejected suitor to hang around, but he never gave up on Una because he cared more for her safety than for his pride. In the context of an allegory, we can appreciate his unselfish love for her. But for people who don't realize this is an allegory, I can see why they would find his persistence annoying!" That's a great point! It really sets up quite a conundrum: Jesus is willing to be completely bereft of reputation among men in order to watch over us.
But the allegory aside, the author also teaches us what kind of suiter is the real deal. He is willing to be long-suffering through humiliation.
Mod
Head on over to the Library to check it out! :)
Calling all Goldstone Wood Fans! The Fan Art Contest has begun....so share the news and break out those pens and paints! :D http://goldstonewoodfanartcontest2017...
Yay! What a beautiful 1st prize!! I'm posting the link on my FB page. Hope everyone else will too!
Hannah wrote: "The Fan Art Contest has BEGUN!Head on over to the Library to check it out! :)
Calling all Goldstone Wood Fans! The Fan Art Contest has begun....so share the news and break out those pens and paints! :D http://goldstonewoodfanartcontest2017..."
Ooh, how exciting!! Thanks for the announcement, Hannah! :)
Mod
And talking about Heartless.....rereading this after the whole series...I think Eanrin is even MORE hilarious. I think having to go undercover in cat form for several years turned his mind a bit more catty than normal....I mean, his romance advice to Athelbald? Was he cattishly serious or completely being snarky? Either way, it's delightful to see him on such comfortable friendly terms with his Lord.
1) This is my third read through Heartless! The first time I read it I was about 13. And I had no clue that it was an allegory, until near the end in a certain scene, probably one of the most important ones, and than as the scene unfolded the fact that it was an allegory, and the allegory itself, dawned on my at the same time and, I think, impacted me powerfully. There was this big awe-filled "Oh." moment. So I'm glad I didn't know it was an allegory, because I got to experience the MEANING of the allegory in a powerful way, because I hadn't seen it before. And reading it for the second, and now the third time, I'm glad I know it's an allegory because I can find more things. :)2) I've always liked Una. Yeah, she's a mess, but I've never really disliked her.
I'm realizing this round that Felix is so RUDE to Aethelbald! And Aethelbald just smiles at him and trains him in sword fighting! Also, Felix said he's not afraid of Aethelbald, and Aethalbald says "Maybe you should be." Hmm.
Jill wrote: "About Aethelbald's proposal, I always felt that he hadn't intended to propose that first day but got pushed into it by Felix--and being too honest and courageous to pretend or back out, he spoke up honestly. And he didn't leave after Una refused him because King Fidel needed his help, needed the warning of the danger to come--even though he didn't listen. It would be rather humiliating for a rejected suitor to hang around, but he never gave up on Una because he cared more for her safety than for his pride. In the context of an allegory, we can appreciate his unselfish love for her. But for people who don't realize this is an allegory, I can see why they would find his persistence annoying!"
Yes! I agree that Felix "pushed" him into it! At least a little bit. But maybe he would have proposed the first night anyway. He wasn't about to beat about the bush about it with everyone.
@Twelve year market topic: I thick Torkom had no business being there, Aethalbald was pretty unhappy about him being there.
I think, like Micheal said, Aethalbald came in right before something really bad was (I think) about to happen. And if Una hadn't been so caught up in. . .whatever she was caught up in, pride, wanting to be left alone and respected, hadn't gotten too embarrassed to speak to him, I think it could have all ended then and there. He would heal her burn, and everything would have been much better. But she didn't let him, and he wasn't going to force himself on her.
@E.F.B.: YES! I noticed that line about "in the old style with enormous doors opening to the east and to the west", too!! It made me wonder if it was a House of Lights once too! ...Hey, and maybe the people from the Wood would come up every one or their twelve years to visit it? And sell trinkets to Man? Hmm. And maybe it changed to just a Market over time? It's an interesting thought at least...
Love everyone's thoughts!
@Hannah: Yes, it's wonderful to see him on such comfortable friendly terms with his Lord!
Who else thought it was super amusing that Una gave Monster a bath? In the light of the later books, it's super funny to think what that blind fellow would think of being given a bath. XD Makes me wonder what Imraldera would have thought too. :P
Looking forward to seeing all the lovely art! I've been attempting to draw Lady Gleamdren, but seeing how I'm supplying 1st prize, I probably shouldn't also enter a drawing in the contest. ;) @Hannah I love Eanrin in all the books, but that scene where he tried to give Aethelbald romantic advice is a personal favorite of mine. LOL!
I'm a bit late for this week - and me, of all people! Anyway, Eanrin's advice was hilarious! And the bit about the shoe! I thought it was pretty interesting, too, that he was on so friendly terms with the Prince. I mean, he was respectful, if I'm interpreting the situation right, but the thought of offering advice to him of all people sounds ludicrous. And one of the other interactions he had with the Prince in Starflower had Eanrin so awestruck, that the change to such camaraderie was interesting.
The Prince's sad expression at the dinner table with Una and Gervais... I can see his heart breaking both at Una's attachment to the other man and at Gervais. Seeing Gervais, who, if the Prince is Jesus, the Prince also loved, being so deceptive and taking light of a situation that should not have been taken lightly would have been heartbreaking.
Una is so funny and adorable. The way she stumbles over her words when she's flustered is so precious! She seems much younger than her years (but maybe that's just me).
And here's one question I keep asking myself: HOW DID UNA KNOW WHAT ROSES SMELLED LIKE? She knew she smelled roses in the tent, but she also knew roses hadn't bloomed in the nation in years. So how did she know what the strange scent was?
I'm picking up so many more details that I had when first reading this book. (I think this is the third time.) The cat not only being a knight in "disguise" but also the legendary poet. Torkom being one and the same as the trickster in Moonblood, and oh my gosh, the Prince's threat to send him back to Arpiar - just, How?! But then, he is the Prince. All that stuff in the dreams, the tapestry of the sun and moon, and Una's RING. They carry so much more weight now. I am wondering about the throne room being a house of lights and King Abiuntius (or whatever his name is that I'm too lazy to look up) and a few other references I caught.
This week we are up to Chapter 17!Did Una really love Leo or was it something else? And did he truly love her?
Within the context of this book and the situation to this point as she understands it, is she too quick to trust him? I think we know the answer to that question for later in the book and series, but do you think if you you were one of her bff's that you would encourage or discourage her to trust him?
That creepy picture shows up here. We know it has significance in the series, but do you think it has significance in this book specifically?
Prince Aethelbald, the Duke of Shippening, and the Dragon... I don't even know where to begin the questions with those three. Thoughts? Could things have happened differently? Would that have changed the major events?
Looking at the allegory of the Prince being Jesus, Una being the Church, and the Dragon being the Devil, what was the significance of the Dragon taking over the palace? What was its role in the allegory? What would have happened in the romance if the Dragon had not come? If she still fought against him, did the Dragon have any less control over her deep down?
And for fun, what dating advice would you give Eanrin? Or Aethelbald (if you dare)?
Mod
That is a really good point about Una knowing the smell of roses when roses have not been around for years......maybe just a story error or some sort of sudden faerie knowledge or something else???
That PICTURE. The second man chained drives me nuts, whoooooooooo is he?
The Duke is such a loser. I hated him here, but I learn to hate him so much more in Veiled Rose. BOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooo!
Hannah wrote: "Everybody matures in different ways....personally I don't think Una acts too young for 18 since she has been fairly sheltered, spoiled, and without any real testing yet to mature her character. T..."
*agrees*
Yes, the Duke. Uuuuhhhggg, I hated him so much in this book, but I didn't expect him to be much of a problem. And then in Veiled Rose...!!!! Wowsers, I did not see any of that coming (he's even worse than I thought).
Emily wrote: "And here's one question I keep asking myself: HOW DID UNA KNOW WHAT ROSES SMELLED LIKE? She knew she smelled roses in the tent, but she also knew roses hadn't bloomed in the nation in years. So how did she know what the strange scent was? " That's a good point! I hadn't thought about that before. I guess we could say that the enchanted nature of the rose smell means Una automatically knew what kind of flowers they were despite having never smelled a rose before. (Or so we can only assume.) The other option is that you might have caught a place where Anne Elisabeth hand-waved away a technicality for the sake of foreshadowing. ;)
Answers to this week's questions:
1) Una certainly *thought* she loved Leo. I think what she felt for him was different and more serious than what she felt for Gervaise, but it was still nothing more than infatuation and she gave him her trust and her heart far too easily. Once again, she didn't know him well enough to truly love him, and I think she got swept up in the romance of the notion that Leo was an exiled prince who was supposedly willing to face a dragon to have the ability to ask for her hand.
Did Leo love Una? Hmm... With only the clues from Heartless to go on, it's hard to say. I say he thought he loved her. Remembering the things from Veiled Rose, he "fell in love" with Una's sweet innocence and the way she was so much different than Daylilly, who was the polar opposite of Una with all her scheming. But when it came down to it, Leo was a coward. Real love requires self-sacrifice and Leo was too afraid to sacrifice anything for Una, from the alliance with Daylilly's family to his own life. So no matter what he thought he felt, his "love" for Una was not true.
2) Like I said above, I think Una was far too quick to trust Leo. I agree 100% with Fidel when he said that trust should be earned, not asked for. If Leo was really trustworthy, he shouldn't have had to ask for Una's trust because he should have shown her with his character and his actions that he was trustworthy. It actually annoys me really badly that Leo kept saying, "Trust me, Una, trust me" but he never actually said what she was trusting him to do. He *implied* that he wanted to come back and ask for her hand in marriage, but he never actually said that outright. I don't think he consciously intended to do so, but I feel he was basically leaving himself a loophole to get out of the "agreement" if things didn't go right. If I was Una's bff, I would have told her exactly what I just said above^ in the hopes it would discourage her from trusting him.
Random side note: The things Fidel said about trust in "Heartless" actually inspired a scene in the novel I'm writing. In my story, my main character meets a man with whom she will later have something like a father-daughter relationship, but when they first meet she's rather wary of him for reasons I won't go into here. There's a moment where they're talking and she actually asks him if he's asking her to trust him, but because of how much I liked what Fidel said, I have this male character say, "No. I'd rather earn your trust than have to ask for it." Eventually, because of the quality of his character and actions, she does come to trust him. I know it's not much, and any future readers of my story won't be able to point to that moment and say, "Hey, that was inspired by "Heartless!", but I just wanted to mention it, because these books really do influence my writing, even when it's not obvious. :)
3) I was going to bring up the creepy picture even if you hadn't asked because I can't help trying to figure it out. In the context of this story, I think the significance is...er...hmm... Well, I think it's foreshadowing both for the short term story (this one book) and long term story (the whole series). Obviously, the pale dude on the golden slab is the Dragon. I think that is it's main significance in this story. It shows us that there is a long history behind this creepy person who has been haunting Una's dreams and it shows us that Leo has come into contact with the Dragon even before Leo tells Una about it.
As for it's significance to the rest of the series, the only thing we've learned about it is that (because of Golden Daughter) we know why the Dragon is on the golden slab and why he's asleep. That's about it, as far as I've been able to discern.
As for my own theories, I can't help wondering if the painting is a depiction of the events surrounding the Dragon's awakening, though I don't have any evidence for that. I also can't figure out who the other people in it are. I've had it in my head that the king in the picture might be Vahe since he's had that obsession with the dragons going on for quite some time and I've wonderd if awakening the Dragon from his long sleep might be how he got that agreement that if he did the thing on the night of Moonblood he could use the Dragon's dragons as a personal army or whatever. At one point, I also had it in my head that maybe the loss of Eanrin's eyes might have been connected to the awakening of the Dragon somehow since Vahe (I think) is the one who stabbed them out, but again, no evidence for that other than my own personal theory. I have no clue who the two guys are that the "king" has in chains. If I recall correctly, I noticed on this second reading that the three men's faces are the same, but I'm wondering if that's because they were truly identical or if the artist was just really bad at faces. If they really were identical, that might put a dent in my theory of the king being Vahe. Or not. I really don't know. :p I also can't figure out who on earth that woman could be who is weeping next to the Dragon. Who would cry over him?! Or IS she crying over him????????????
4) For once, I have no idea. All I have to say here is, in my mind, Aethelbald = <3, Duke = Eeeew, and Dragon = *shudder*
5) I think the allegorical meaning here is that the devil does make attacks on the church, some attacks more direct and stronger than others. The Church, which is made up of human beings with free will, can choose to either give in or endure. By coming to the palace, the Dragon was trying to force Una to give in and let him kiss her and unfortunately he succeeded in this case.
Actually, to a certain extent, I feel like there are some parts of this allegory where it seems to fluctuate from an allegory of Christ and the Church to being more like an allegory of Christ and the unsaved individual and then goes back again. I have trouble putting my thoughts on this into words, but that's part of how I feel.
If the Dragon had not come... I don't know what might have happened. Una's rejection of Aethelbald might have gone on indefinitely, or she might have eventually matured and accepted him. It's hard for me to say.
"If she still fought against him, did the Dragon have any less control over her deep down?" That's a very good question. Again, I'm having trouble putting an answer into words for this one, so I think I'll just leave it be for now.
6) I don't think Aethelbald needs advice, but as for Eanrin: If you want someone *cough* Imraldera *cough* to like you... Oh, I don't know... STOP ACTING LIKE YOU'RE INFATUATED WITH SOMEONE ELSE!!! That is all. Carry on.
My one random pondering for this week that isn't related to the discussion questions is about that one dream (just before Aethelbald left) where Una was walking through a burned-out garden and house and saw the Dragon there. Where do y'all think that was? Was she seeing the Dragon in destroyed Southlands? Or was it a vision of what Parumvir would look like when the Dragon came (though if this was the case, I wonder why she wouldn't recognize the location)? Or was it just a random dream location that didn't represent anywhere in real life? Just something I've wondered about.
E.F.B. wrote: "My one random pondering for this week that isn't related to the discussion questions is about that one dream (just before Aethelbald left) where Una was walking through a burned-out garden and hous..."My guess is that it would be the Southlands. :)
EFB wrote "3) I was going to bring up the creepy picture even if you hadn't asked because I can't help trying to figure it out. In the context of this story, I think the significance is...er...hmm... Well, I think it's foreshadowing both for the short term story (this one book) and long term story (the whole series). Obviously, the pale dude on the golden slab is the Dragon. I think that is it's main significance in this story. It shows us that there is a long history behind this creepy person who has been haunting Una's dreams and it shows us that Leo has come into contact with the Dragon even before Leo tells Una about it. "Do you folks think that we come in contact with the Dragon in real life?
Dragoin wiles seemed always to be about deception and forms of seduction. Should we completely avoid any place where he may lurk? Or should we be brave and trust that the Prince will be with us and take back ground from the Dragon? It seems to me that life is a combination of the 2, but the author's characters generally seem to fall in pretty deeply.
Enjoying all comments!
Mod
(view spoiler)
OH Eanrin. Yes, in the old days he used that Gleamdren thing as a jealous card, but now I think he just uses it as a shield for his real feelings. Remember, AHEM, the events of Shadow Hand, the distance in the relationship between him and Imraldera is not all his fault.... :)
Hannah wrote: "Okay, so about the characters in the picture....that's spoilers for Book 2 and 3 so if you haven't read that, don't read this, but for those who just need a refresher.... [spoilers removed]
OH E..."
Hannah wrote: "[insert spoilery spoiler stuff here]"
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh, I almost forgot about that! I remembered that for some reason I thought it was her and him in the picture, but I couldn't remember why, so I thought maybe I just made it up. But YAY for there actually being a reason that I thought that!
As for the other guy... (view spoiler) #WildFanTheories LOL :D
Emily, with the Dragon taking over the palace: ...you don't know what you've got till its gone...I think that God allows the Dragon to take it over so that his children will fight for what they need to reclaim. In other words, Satan takes over the palace belonging to the bride, the church. He then persecutes the bride and drives her from her comfort zone, but he can't altogether destroy her.
Worth pondering more, but thanks for that!
I just today got caught up on the reading for last week, and may I say that I kind of fell for Lionheart all over again? He is so charming and messed-up, and even though I know quite well what he is going to do, I love him.I'm so glad we're going to read through the series together this year! I love reading Emily's questions to ponder and all of your many comments. It is interesting how many clues there are to later stories that haven't been written yet, and I also know how much stories change as they are being written. So even if I were to give away what I "know," it might turn out to be totally wrong when the books come to life. :-)
And Eanrin cracks me up. So snarky yet sincere. And he is so cat! His love/hate relationship with Felix is fun.
The other character I love and appreciate more this reading is Aethelbald. The subtlety of his character (actually, of most of these characters) is beautiful.
About Lionheart and Una and love . . . I agree with E.F.B. (great comments, btw!) They were both very immature and proud, and I don't think either of them really understood the meaning of love, but they both believed themselves to be sincere. It didn't survive the formidable tests that followed, but sadly this is often true of young love. I can't say that I would have been wiser than she was at eighteen!
As I was reading this time, I noticed how Una fiercely denied her feelings every time thoughts of Aethelbald popped up, and she clung all the harder to her infatuation with Lionheart, but the truth is still there. Both he and Lionheart promised to come back for her. Which of them is she truly waiting for? She thinks it is Lionheart, but does she even know her own heart?
E.F.B. wrote: "I'm going to be a little more wordy, and if it's alright, I'd like to make a few extra observations of my own. It's only three observations, though so hopefully it won't be too lengthy..."I'm back-tracking a little as I catch up on the discussion.
E.F.B., remember the prologue? And then how it said on chapter one that it was 5 years later? Una would have been 13 when that happened, so maybe that had something to do with why the Dragon was searching for her for only 5 years. And remember that in Veiled Rose (SPOILER ALERT) the Dragon thought Rosie was the Prince's beloved for the longest time. I can't remember exactly when the Dragon found out that it wasn't her, but the Southlands were overrun by the Dragon for about 5 years in that weird time-warp and Una's 18th year would have been the 5th year and her 13th year would have been the beginning of it. Maybe that explains it?
E.F.B. wrote: "Emily wrote: "And here's one question I keep asking myself: HOW DID UNA KNOW WHAT ROSES SMELLED LIKE? She knew she smelled roses in the tent, but she also knew roses hadn't bloomed in the nation in..."Funny how it's you I'm replying to again :p
Oh, and this comment is filled with spoilers for the other books in the series.
In the picture, I always thought it was the Lady of Dreams who was the woman by the Dragon. I can't exactly see her weeping for him, but I think I can see her conspiring to set him free for some evil purpose and doing whatever it takes, even crying, to make it happen. And the three men in the picture... I thought it was Vahe too, and the other two men were his triplets. We know Oeric is Vahe's identical twin; it's only the magic that made them look different. Their rotten mother tossed Oeric out, and Vahe hated him too, so it would make sense he would be one of the ones in chains. And I think that somewhere in the books there was a side comment about there being a third brother, but that might be me imagining things. Anyone else remember something about it?
And I thought it was the Tiger who took Eanrins eyes? And that bit about Eanrin taking the Tiger's eyes later...
Oh wait! Now I see Hannah's post... Oops... (view spoiler)Moving on to Una and Leo's relationship. One of my friends is into psychology (graduated with a BA in it last spring) and she lives to talk about her theory of relationships. Judging from her theory, I don't think a long-term relationship between them would have worked out if life would have continued as normal. They both had crushes, not real attraction or love, on each other.
That said, Una did seem to be attracted to Aethelbald, though she was too stubborn to admit it to herself or anyone else. The little things he does sometimes had an effect on her. And if you think about it, he does kind of fit her idea of a chivalrous prince. Not flashy or overly romantic, but he does rescue her from dangers, stays out of loyalty, proposes to her, and a few other things. She was just too stubborn and proud.
About the Market, I think it was true what Oeric said about the Far World's years being longer and harder to pin down. It might have actually been 12 years in Faerie. And the part about them saying it was so the humans didn't forget value them, well, the humans did not - they still had the memories as stories from the grandparents. I don't really know why the Prince was traveling with it, but Oeric seemed to have some authority, so it makes a person wonder.
Mod
Hannah wrote: "Oh, it was definitely Vahe who took Eanrin's eyes. He still has the blades he did it with and everything. (Blades that belonged to Eanrin no less........buuuuurn. I really hope they aren't the ones..."It's been a while since I've read these books, I suppose.
Eanrin was pretty arrogant, but that is a bit much to say "serves him right." And I really hope the blades aren't the ones from Sairu!!!
Now for Week 3 over chapters 18-28! I hope you are enjoying the reread and the discussions and aren't getting behind. (I am...) As always, feel free to ask questions and add ponderings to liven things up.
The Dragon has come. The city is overrun, the king and the prince are poisoned, and the princess is dragon-kissed. Gervais and Lionheart have shown themselves to be worthless suitors. Everything is depressing...
When the Dragon first takes over, we see Una wishing and waiting for a prince's return. Maybe this is a dumb question, but who is she really waiting for? She says it's Leo, but he's not the only one who said he would return...
And what about the Thrush? I don't know about you, but I interpret that little bird as symbolic of the Holy Spirit. The Thrush is still there when the Dragon takes over.
What do you think of the dialogue between Una and the Dragon? How reflective is it of our conflict with sin and the Devil? What does it say of Una to have given in after so little time? Also, what does it say of her to have immediately fought against the Dragon?
Both Gervais and Leo turn their backs on Una in this section. Jerks. Who are they in this Allegory? The suitors whose worth came to nothing, who were too self-centered and proud to really love Una?
Looking at the power of names in the series, especially Starflower, what does it say that the dragons are Nameless? (Or are they?)
I don't know what to ask about Felix, his father, and the Knights of Farthestshore. What do you think? And why didn't the Prince go to the rescue, say, when Eanrin reported to him if not before, instead of waiting?
Random observation: Don't you love the cameos of Imraldra and Rose Red?! They have a small part in the story, but they're there. And neither of them are listened to... Hmmm...
It seems to me that the dragon paralyzes Una in her State of Shock.As far as her suitors... the hireling sees the wolf coming and runs away because he does not really care for the Sheep. We learn later that there were reasons why Leo was detained. That kind of thing happens to all of us but I think he should have stuck with his obligation to Una.
A good discussion here would be to examine Leo's predicament from the perspective a couple books later and see if we can find a way in which he could have kept all his obligations.
But from the perspective of this book, I agree. Jerk!
Namelessness is a really interesting observation. Perhaps all names have to come from farthestshore!Remember that Jesus said that Satan would sift Peter like wheat and all he said was that he would pray for him. The more the gold is tested, the purer and more refined it is at the end.
I enjoy this discussion so much!I've always thought Una "had the right fire" because she was proud and stubborn--too proud and stubborn to admit when she was wrong. And Lionheart had the same failing--insisted on doing things his way instead of accepting guidance or help. I think this is why these two characters are so easy to relate to--pride is the sin that separates us from God, the one He hates most. Yet we seldom see it that way.
The wood thrush was there to comfort and help Una, and she held out as long as she would listen and accept its comfort--but once she heard about Lionheart's betrayal and was hurt and angry, she ignored the beam of sunlight and the wood thrush and turned to the Dragon instead. But she still loved her family and didn't really want to be evil. Not until she gave up her pride and was willing to die to herself could Aethelbald save her--and he had to patiently wait and allow her to come to that point. But he was always offering his love and seeking her.
I think you are right, Emily, and the wood thrush does represent the Holy Spirit. Aethelbald sent it to Una, but she was angry because he (or Lionheart) didn't come himself to rescue her right then. Michael, I think you hit the nail on the head about how we all need to be sifted like wheat in order for our faith to be refined. Thank you!
The dragons don't want to remember their names. They are all so buried in self-pity and anger that they won't accept love when it is offered. When anyone does call them by name, it hurts!
Lionheart had made many bad choices before he ever met Una. Again, he was so proud and intent on doing things himself--and then on making up for all the mistakes he made--that he was tied up in knots by the time he reached Parumvir. And he had Life-in-Death constantly telling him what to do. I love Lionheart, but he makes my heart hurt with all his pride and independence--he hates the very idea of accepting help from Aethelbald. And he is so miserable. :-(
Poor Felix is always getting overlooked and set aside. I enjoy his scenes in the Haven. It is interesting to me, after reading the entire series (many times) how the world in Heartless was still in its formative stages. My guess about how Una knew how roses smell is that her mother must have had rose perfume. The roses only disappeared around the time Una was born, so the scent would still be around. That's my theory anyway. ;-)
Yes, I do love seeing Rose Red and Imraldera in this story! And a few other fun cameos of characters from later books. :-)
If Anne Elisabeth can ever get the rights to this series back, I hope she will be able to finish the stories of these beloved characters. I want to read them!!
I actually caught up on my reading and got a chapter ahead, so I should be able to finish right on time. Yay! Thank you again, Emily!
I’m enjoying this reread so much! Thank you, Emily for leading us and thank you everyone else for the interesting discussion! I’ve actually gotten pretty far ahead of the reading schedule because Heartless is one of those books that keeps me up till midnight reading. :) Should have it finished by mid-week if not sooner. *grabs the tissue box in preparation for the inevitable tears*Depressing is right! I always find myself skimming those chapters where Una is trapped in the castle by the Dragon because they’re so dark, creepy, and depressing. I have trouble reading the first few chapters after Una is dragon-kissed too, because you as the reader feel so intensely the awfulness of her transformation.
Una certainly had herself convinced that Leo would be her rescuer, but I think she had to have remembered somewhere in the back of her mind that Aethelbald said he would come back for her, especially since she could hear the words of the Wood Thrush’s song. It sure wasn’t Leo doing that.
Speaking of the Thrush, I agree that it’s definitely symbolic of the Holy Spirit. Even when Aethelbald isn’t physically present, the Thrush is there, reminding people of the Truth right when they need it. “Beyond the Final Waters falling, the Song of Spheres recalling…” So beautiful! I love those lines so much. <333
On a side note, I just want to say that Anne Elisabeth did an EXCELLENT job describing what a wood thrush’s song sounds like. A silver bell-like song… The Spring after I started reading the Goldstone Wood series, I had the window open at dusk and suddenly heard a lone bird singing somewhere way up at the top of the trees in the woods behind my house. I thought, “Woooow, that bird sounds so much like how the books describe the wood thrush! But it couldn’t be, could it?” But I looked it up online and listened to a recording of their song, and indeed it was the same bird! Wood thrush (sometimes more than one) comes back around mid-spring every year and stays until mid to late-summer, m and I’m a very happy Imp whenever I hear it because, thanks to the Goldstone Wood stories, its song reminds me of God and His love for me and the beauty of the world He created. Okay, moving on to the next question because I’m about to make myself cry…
The dialog between Una and the Dragon infuriates me because of the way the Dragon always twists things around. He told Una the truth that Leo had given away her ring/heart but then twisted the truth into a lie by making it seem like Leo did it because Una wasn’t worth protecting and that she was forgotten about and unloved in general. And he acts like he’s so understanding and whatever, but really all he wants is to trick her into letting him turn her into a dragon so he can steal her away from Aethelbald and make her forget who she really is, just like he’s done with so many others, just like the devil tries to do with us. I think the “flame” that the Dragon tries to get burning in people before he kisses them is representative of sin in our own lives. Anger produces a flame, so does jealousy, selfishness, bitterness, resentment, etc. and the devil tries to fan these “flames” until we become so absorbed in our own “burning” that, like Una, we forget the Truth about God’s forgiveness and ability to redeem even the worst “dragon” from his or her own wrongdoings. And, to tie this into the question of the dragons being Nameless, just like all the dragons, we eventually forget our “True Names” when we let the devil deceive us so thoroughly. We forget our identity as God’s beloved creation who He can and will redeem if only we will let him. And eventually, we can get so lost in the lies that we don’t WANT to remember the truth, the way Jill pointed out that the dragons don’t want to remember their names, I believe, because it reminds them of how far they’ve fallen. Reminding a dragon of his/her name is like turning on a bright light in a room where someone is trying to sleep. They’re not going to be very happy with you!
The only thing I think it says about Una that she gave in after so short a time is that she’s human and humans, with our fallen, sinful nature that was passed from Adam and Eve to every person that was ever born are far too often weak and easily deceived. Romans 3:23- “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Though the fact that Una did fight at first shows that there was some strength in her. She knew immediately that the Dragon was evil. Unfortunately, that evil was very efficient at wearing her down.
Like Jill, I love the chapters with Felix is in the Haven. The beauty and quiet of those chapters is a nice reprieve from the darkness and chaos of the other chapters. Love those other characters’ cameos too! <3
My random observation this week is about something I noticed on page 274. The “Yellow eyed dragon” a.k.a. Diarmid says he and his uncle visited Corrilond once and that it was more beautiful than the halls of Iubdan Rudiobus. This meant next to nothing to me during my first reading of Heartless, but now I see that it was foreshadowing for what we discover about Diarmid’s past identity when we meet him again later. He also says he saw Corrilond burn and that it was about 500 years ago. (view spoiler)
A silver bell-like song… The Spring after I started reading the Goldstone Wood series, I had the window open at dusk and suddenly heard a lone bird singing somewhere way up at the top of the trees in the woods behind my house. Neato!
I agree that the thrush is a good choice here. A very intelligent bird that makes a beautiful song that contrasts strongly with the dragons screeches.
It's interesting that one biblical image is a dove. Apparently, the priests could go take doves from clefts in the rocks to use for offerings in the doves would not resist at all.
Also interesting that it was the Holy Spirit who drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. It does seem that despite the fact that Una's sin caused her such great trials, these trials were also part of God's plan for her.
I'm going to be on the road for the next week or so--going to visit Anne Elisabeth, Rohan, and Her Tiny Highness, actually. :-) So I thought I had better write a few thoughts today.This last section just blew past for me! I finished it days ago, and I look forward to starting Veiled Rose soon.
Great point, Michael, about Una's trials being part of God's plan for her--part of her journey to repentance and restoration.
One character who jumped out at me while reading this time around is King Fidel. He tries so hard to raise his children alone and refuses to see the real danger when it threatens. He is a loving father but possibly too indulgent--although Una and Felix might simply be headstrong by nature, so I'm not judging their father! :-) At the end, when he realizes that Aethelbald has returned both of his children to him safely (or Felix would have been safe if he had waited patiently for healing), he weeps and humbly kisses the Prince's hand. As a mother, I have deep sympathy for him. We parents love our children and raise them to the best of our knowledge and ability, but in the end we are helpless to prevent their making poor decisions and must trust them in the Prince's keeping. Yet this very trial is a blessing to a parent, teaching us to trust more in God and less in our own strength and wisdom. Trials put us on our knees before God in trust and surrender, and there is no better place to be. In the end, the king lives up to his name--even though he struggles and fails, he remains "Fidel," faithful.
I also love the symbolism of Una's finally accepting that she cannot kill the dragon and allowing the Prince to kill her in order to save her--and the importance of her having His heart and then, at the end, leaving hers (the ring) in His keeping. I also love how she has to keep trusting even when it appears that her Prince is gone--more than once! How often do I feel as if God is not listening, is leaving me to struggle in ignorance alone--yet He is near, and He is giving me opportunity to grow in faith that His will is best, that He will overcome and bring good from every situation if I trust Him.
Allegory is a tricky thing, and many readers reject it if it doesn't perfectly mirror Biblical truth. To me, the best allegories leave me thinking, make me look more closely at myself and my attitudes toward God and toward people--and, like this book, bring tears to my eyes as I recognize again the tender depth of His love for me.
Thank you again for hosting this read-along, Emily! I look forward to reading everyone else's questions and comment.
Mom Imp
And Elizabeth, I loved your story about the wood thrush! :-) Because of these books, its song will always be a reminder to me of God's faithful love.
I also love the symbolism of Una's finally accepting that she cannot kill the dragon and allowing the Prince to kill her in order to save her--Yes, when people have not been introduced to the Prince of princes, it may take quite some time before he earns their trust. He may appear meek and persecuted and less noticeable. But it begins to grow on Una that she can really trust him... This is why I say that the series is really good for guys as well-- they should take a page from Farthestshore!
Great thoughts Jill
Enjoyed reading your posts and taking in this beautiful story again.
I'm rather late to our last week of discussion. Oops.Jill, you covered quite a bit of what I was going to say. :) I noticed Fidel a lot more this time around too. It seems so many YA books totally overlook any parental figures or make it seem like the young adult characters are always so much smarter than the adults, so it was refreshing that Fidel got his own character arc through all of this. I hadn't even thought about his name meaning "faithful", but it was very fitting for him! I also really liked his relationship with Aethelbald and always thought that moment where he wept when Aethelbald brought Una back to him was very powerful.
I love the ending to this allegory too, and I remember the first time I read I was literally crying from the point where Aethelbald gave Una her heart back, to the very end of the book. I teared up some this time too. :')
Random observations for the last part of the story: For one thing, I'm still sad Rogan got killed off. I liked him even better this time around, and he was really very brave (though maybe a tad foolhardy) to be ready to face the Dragon like that. I also loved once again seeing the knights in action as they helped protect Fidel and the fortress. That whole chapter really helped emphasize their Otherness as being faerie.
On page 294 I notice Aethelbald said that the last time he and Diarmid met (and he apparently tried to help Diarmid, but Diarmid rejected him and chose to stay a dragon) was 500 years ago. Earlier in the book, Diarmid said he and his uncle saw the Bane of Corrilond burn her city about 500 years ago. Sounds to me like it wasn't long after seeing the burning of Corrilond that Diarmid succombed to the Dragon and I can't help but wonder what it was that pushed him over the edge. Did he envy the Bane of Corrilond's power? Was he bitter over something? How did he come into contact with the Dragon at all? There's a story there... *le dramatic sigh*
On a much less interesting observation: On page 317 when dragon Una landed on the beach and that invisible faerie being found her, I've never been quite able to figure out what type of faerie that was supposed to be. It seemed more corporeal and less flighty than a sylph. Was it perhaps a mermaid? Hmmm.... I've just always been curious about that. :)
I'm so glad to have been able to reread Heartless with all of you. Thanks to everyone who participated, especially Emily for leading us! I look forward to rereading Veiled Rose with you all whenever we're all ready. :)
I agree about King Fidel. Many of the characters in the series including the Dame and Eanrin are older but still cool and savvy. I'm going to bring this point up with my teenage daughter because she has gotten into some of the teenybopper books like Hunger Games
Hello again. Yes, I am planning on doing a Veiled Rose read-through for April, but I haven't gotten a schedule put together yet. This coming Saturday (April 1) needs to be the first week, so try to READ THE FIRST QUARTER of the book. I will put up a discussion forum and schedule tomorrow night.This month looks like it's going to be a really busy one for me, so I don't think I'm going to be able to put together discussion questions for you and I know I will have a hard time keeping up, but at least it's not my first time reading it. Sorry about that. Any you are welcome to get the discussion going or ask you own questions and observations.
Mod
As per request, we will be reading through the entire series together, like a proper book club. This month (March 2017), we will be reading Heartless.
Here are some general guidelines:
Every week we will be reading a quarter of the book, so check the schedule below. On Saturdays, I will do my best to put up discussion questions for the section we finished. You can post any time during the week, and you don't have to wait for me to update the questions on Saturdays. But please do not reveal spoilers for the sections we as a group haven't finished yet. It will keep us focused on the section we are in the middle of and from spoiling the plot for any participants who haven't already read Heartless. As always, please be respectful and courteous of others.
Schedule:
March 4 – Chapters 1-7, pp 1-88
March 11 – Chapters 8-17, pp 89-184
March 18 – Chapters 18-28, pp 185-276
March 25 – Chapter 29-Epilogue, 277-End
I'm super excited for the discussions about this much-loved book, and I hope you are too! Message me if you come up with any great questions, or even ask them on the forum yourselves. Looking forward to reading with you!