The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Hi Fellow-Curiosities,

Our next chapter, Chapter 22, finally gives us some more insight into Miss Havisham’s background story – but first things first. Instead of treating each other with reservation, Pip and Herbert burst out laughing when their recognition has become mutual, and it soon becomes apparent that Herbert Pocket has since lived under the impression that it was he himself who went out of that fight the winner – and so he apologizes for having come down on Pip so mightily that day.

Does this incongruity as to how each of them remembers their fight tell us something about Pip as a narrator, or rather about Herbert as a person? What do you think?

They soon settle down to a sumptuous dinner, which is provided by Pip’s allowance since young Herbert’s mean are very limited, like those of his father Matthew, and in the course of their meal they not only strike up a friendship but Pip also learns a lot about Estella and Miss Havisham’s past. Things I’m going to put in a nutshell for you: Apparently, Miss Havisham at first wanted Herbert to be brought up in her sphere and to be affianced to Estella, but soon she discovered that she did not like him too much, and this was why Pip was sent for. This might explain Herbert’s motive for challenging Pip. Herbert is not too unhappy, though, at having been supplanted because he considers Estella a Tartar, ”hard and haughty and capricious to the last degree” and he explicitly warns Pip that Miss Havisham has brought her up to wreak revenge on the male sex. Pip learns that Estella has been adopted by Miss Havisham and is not really of the family. He further learns that 25 years ago, Miss Havisham was jilted because her suitor – a gentleman by appearance only, and a showy one at that – was, in fact, already married. This mysterious suitor was in league with Miss Havisham’s half-brother, who used this means of getting money out of his half-sister, and he was also the cause of the breach between Miss Havisham and Matthew Pocket, the only relative who was honest and independent with the wealthy Miss Havisham and had warned her not to set all her hopes on her suitor, for which warning Miss Havisham imputed him to have selfish motives. Both the half-brother and the suitor have disappeared and may well be still alive.

Pip tells Herbert that he is not allowed to go into details nor to inquire about the identity of his benefactor but both young men tacitly come to the conclusion that it cannot be any other person but Miss Havisham.

We also learn of Herbert’s expectations when he builds glorious castles in the air about being a ship insurance man one day, whereas at the moment he has but a mean office job and his “looking about him”, and Pip comes to the following conclusion about his new friend:

”Herbert Pocket had a frank and easy way with him that was very taking. I had never seen any one then, and I have never seen any one since, who more strongly expressed to me, in every look and tone, a natural incapacity to do anything secret and mean. There was something wonderfully hopeful about his general air, and something that at the same time whispered to me he would never be very successful or rich. I don’t know how this was. I became imbued with the notion on that first occasion before we sat down to dinner, but I cannot define by what means.”

What do you think whose expectations will be more valid, Pip’s or Herbert’s?

When he tells Miss Havisham’s story, Herbert also mentions a comment that was made by his father, a comment that may bear some meaning to Pip:

”[…] but I have heard my father mention that he was a showy man, and the kind of man for the purpose. But that he was not to be, without ignorance or prejudice, mistaken for a gentleman, my father most strongly asseverates; because it is a principle of his that no man who was not a true gentleman at heart ever was, since the world began, a true gentleman in manner. He says, no varnish can hide the grain of the wood; and that the more varnish you put on, the more the grain will express itself.”

Then there is another, quite funny, passage:

”’Now,’ he pursued, ‘concerning Miss Havisham. Miss Havisham, you must know, was a spoilt child. Her mother died when she was a baby, and her father denied her nothing. Her father was a country gentleman down in your part of the world, and was a brewer. I don’t know why it should be a crack thing to be a brewer; but it is indisputable that while you cannot possibly be genteel and bake, you may be as genteel as never was and brew. You see it every day.’

‘Yet a gentleman may not keep a public-house; may he?’ said I.

‘Not on any account,’ returned Herbert; ‘but a public-house may keep a gentleman. [...]’”

Might these passages not also refer to Pip’s expectations, in a way?

Then there is a last interesting detail, namely Pip’s getting a new name by Herbert: Handel, because of that composer’s piece “The Harmonious Blacksmith”, which you can find here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajk11...

It’s quite interesting that Pip’s origins are now reflected in a sobriquet when he actually was in such a hurry to get away from them, but apparently he does not mind that new name.

And, last not least, we also get some glimpses of the Pocket family, especially at Herbert’s rather absent-minded mother and the younger children, who are looked after by two maids. Does this family remind you of another Dickens family? Because, in a way, as matters stand, it does so to me.

Tristram wrote: "Hi Fellow-Curiosities,

Our next chapter, Chapter 22, finally gives us some more insight into Miss Havisham’s background story – but first things first. Instead of treating each other with reservat..."

First things first, but in my case it's going to be last.

"Does this family remind you of another Dickens family?

If you aren't thinking of the Jellybees from Bleak House I can't imagine who it is.

As to Pip's new name, my thought was why? Why did he need any other name but Pip? I like it better than Pip thought, but that may be because it reminds me of music.

Oh, and thanks to you I've just listened to “The Harmonious Blacksmith”, over and over again because one of the comments mentioned it was the slowest version he had ever heard, so now I'm listening to different versions. The one I'm listening to now is much to fast. For my fingers anyway, oh my, it just got even faster. I have no hope of ever playing this past the first page or so.

When Pip and Herbert Pocket recognize each other the question in my mind is the same one I had during the fight. Why did Herbert want to fight at all? Was his dream someday becoming a boxer? At least that's what I thought. I like Tristram's idea of him being replaced by Pip when Miss Haversham didn't like him. And the more people think that Miss Haversham is the anonymous benefactor the more I think she isn't. Although who would be is beyond me.

I love the easy way that Herbert corrected Pip, without any awkwardness, or embarrassment on Pip's part. For example:

We had made some progress in the dinner, when I reminded Herbert of his promise to tell me about Miss Havisham.
“True,” he replied. “I’ll redeem it at once. Let me introduce the topic, Handel, by mentioning that in London it is not the custom to put the knife in the mouth—for fear of accidents—and that while the fork is reserved for that use, it is not put further in than necessary. It is scarcely worth mentioning, only it’s as well to do as other people do. Also, the spoon is not generally used over-hand, but under. This has two advantages. You get at your mouth better (which after all is the object), and you save a good deal of the attitude of opening oysters, on the part of the right elbow.”
He offered these friendly suggestions in such a lively way, that we both laughed and I scarcely blushed.

Contrast this with the card-playing scene between Estella and Pip in an earlier chapter:

I misdealt, as was only natural, when I knew she was lying in wait for me to do wrong; and she denounced me for a stupid, clumsy labouring-boy.

Mrs. Pocket is somewhat reminiscent of Mrs. Jellyby. Mrs. Jellyby, I think subconsciously, hopes her philanthropic work will attract attention and praise from others, whereas Mrs. Pocket seems purely self-absorbed and doesn't seem to take heed of anyone. The result, though, is the same - maternal neglect and/or indifference. The Pockets, despite their means, are still able to employ not one, but two nursemaids, Flopson (now there's a name!) and Millers, who seem to at least make sure the children are bathed, fed, and safe. I don't recall the Jellybys having any hired help, and instead relied on poor Caddy.

Mary Lou wrote: "I love the easy way that Herbert corrected Pip, without any awkwardness, or embarrassment on Pip's part. For example:

We had made some progress in the dinner, when I reminded Herbert of his promis..."

Mary Lou

A great observation. I wonder if everything that Estella was not to Pip, Herbert will be? I think Pip will need an ally in London.

Pip as a narrator or Herbert as a person. What does their remembrance of the fight tell us?

A good question. I think the natures of the two combatants are clearly illustrated. Pip apparently won the fight and it was a victory with blood being shed. So, Pip is the stronger physically. We are told more than once that Herbert is "a pale young gentleman." Pip's strength won him the day. However, how to interpret Herbert's recollection is a bit more tricky. He could simply be refusing to accept the truth of the confrontation. On the other hand, the fight could also help develop the true natures of both boys.

Pip's young life has been one of physicality. His sister has "raised him by hand" and is proud of it. Pip has also been the recipient of a physically agressive confrontation with the escaped convict who bent him over a gravestone and threatened to eat him. As a child, he has seen and no doubt helped Joe in the forge. The work of a blacksmith is physical and aggresive in nature. Pip has only known force - how to exert it, how to accept it, and how to deal with it. Thus, a victory over another is a method of achieving a feeling of self-worth and a victory in his frame of reference.

On the other hand, Herbert may well see the fight with Pip as a confrontation where a victory comes not only with the vanquishing of an opponent, but with the ability and strength to stand up to an opponent of equal or greater strength. Thus, to Herbert, his definition of victory is one of perseverance and effort. GE is being written during the time of the movement of "Muscular Christianity" in England. Novels such as Tom Brown's Schooldays and others developed the idea of gamesmanship, inner strength and character quality as being the victory to be gained by the vigorous youth of the period.

Thus, Pip won the physical confrontation and Herbert won the moral and spiritual battle. The fight was, for allpurposes, a draw.

A follow-up to Mary Lou's earlier message.

Estella and Herbert are opposites. Estella's apparent purpose is to break Pip's heart. She treats him with no respect, feeds him like a dog and, I would argue, her offering of her cheek to kiss is only a token jesture of a momentary physical victory on Pip's part. Indeed, I believe her offering of her cheek to kiss may well be a crass, cruel and humiliating jesture by which she can further ensnare Pip's heart, and thus further increase her hold over his naïveté.

Consider, on the other hand, Herbert's character, and especially the way he speaks to Pip. Herbert immediately says that he and Pip are harmonious and asks Pip if he can call him Handel, and informs Pip that there is "a charming piece of music, by Handel, called the Harmonious Blacksmith." Herbert says that it would be a "pleasure" to help Pip adjust to the ways of a gentleman. Throughout this chapter Herbert uses the words "dear" and "good" when referring to Pip. What a welcome change from his sister, Pumblechook, Wopsle, Miss Havisham and especially Estella, all of whom demean Pip at every available opportunity.

Pip has finally found a true friend who will support and look after his needs as he learns to navigate through his new life. Let's hope that Pip will show more appreciation to Herbert in London than he did to Biddy, and especially Joe, at the forge.

Kim wrote: "Oh, and thanks to you I've just listened to “The Harmonious Blacksmith”, over and over again because one of the comments mentioned it was the slowest version he had ever heard, so now I'm listening..."

I have just listened to the version I linked - and I chose it because of the nice painting. Maybe I'll compare it to some other versions when writing my next recaps.

Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Hi Fellow-Curiosities,

Our next chapter, Chapter 22, finally gives us some more insight into Miss Havisham’s background story – but first things first. Instead of treating each ot..."

I'm indeed thinking of the Jellybys, and for the reasons Mary Lou pointed out: Both Mrs. Jellyby and Mrs. Pocket seem to be very neglectful with regard to their children, although for different reasons. In the case of Mrs. Pocket, I could not help thinking that she must have some mental problem because her way of asking a question and then not listening but reverting to her book, but only for a few lines, seems very odd to me. Let's see what else we are going to learn about her.

I appreciated the ideas you all had about Herbert (esp. in contrast to Estella), and I think the words his father used - that being a gentleman is a matter of the heart, and that riches and fine looks do not suffice to make a gentleman - and with which he wanted to express his doubts about Miss Havisham's suitor, also apply, in a positive sense, to Herbert: He may not be wealthy and he may not be too healthy-looking, but his whole behaviour, e.g. his frankness, his genially jesting way of putting Pip right with regard to table manners, his readiness to comply with Pip's demand that it is better not to pursue the subject of his benefactor any more, and - above all - his readiness not to bear a grudge against the young man who supplanted him in the favours of a rich relative, all these qualities are indicative of a true gentleman. It's to be hoped that Pip will pick up more than simply table manners from Herbert.

Knowing what we know of Miss Havisham I believe Herbert and Pip were there for one reason -- raw meat upon which to train Estella. However, Herbert may have proven not to be good training material being as congenial as he is. He seems indefatigable, someone whose spirits are not easily dampened. I doubt Miss Havisham would ever consider being either's mentor, and in Herbert's case he may have been a tool to get back at his father for his being right about her suitor.

I love Herbert, but I believe Pip over him regarding their fight. I compare his version of the fight to his aspirations of being a capitalist. He says he's an insurer of ships, but upon Pip's cross-examination concedes he is but a worker in a counting house. He says he is there to learn from those around him, but as Pip remarks to himself, Herbert could do that very thing anywhere. Our good Herbert may have problems distinguishing imagination from reality. Having said that, I like Peter's explanation better.

Interesting how Herbert's story about Miss Havisham and Estella doesn't seem to bother him. He doesn't bat an eye, not even when told Miss Havisham is raising Estella to do her man-hating for her.

Do you think we will meet Miss Havisham's betrothed at some point? Or her half-brother? And who are Estella's parents? Where did Miss Havisham find her? She's locked up in her cage. Someone must have told her about Estella, but for what purpose?

Tristram wrote: "I have just listened to the version I linked...."

Here, try this one, I like it better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSUT...

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Knowing what we know of Miss Havisham I believe Herbert and Pip were there for one reason -- raw meat upon which to train Estella. However, Herbert may have proven not to be good training material ..."

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Herbert doesn't seem to suffer from the same inferiority and insecurities as Pip, and wouldn't have been as easily manipulated.

"I hope your Mama is quite well?"

Chapter 22

John McLenan

1861

Pip and Mrs. Pocket in the garden at Hammersmith, with two nursemaids and children in the background

Text Illustrated:

At the same time this nurse picked up Mrs. Pocket’s handkerchief, and said, “If that don’t make six times you’ve dropped it, Mum!” Upon which Mrs. Pocket laughed and said, “Thank you, Flopson,” and settling herself in one chair only, resumed her book. Her countenance immediately assumed a knitted and intent expression as if she had been reading for a week, but before she could have read half a dozen lines, she fixed her eyes upon me, and said, “I hope your mamma is quite well?” This unexpected inquiry put me into such a difficulty that I began saying in the absurdest way that if there had been any such person I had no doubt she would have been quite well and would have been very much obliged and would have sent her compliments, when the nurse came to my rescue. "

Lecturing on Capital

Chapter 22

Marcus Stone

Text Illustrated:

“I think I shall trade, also,” said he, putting his thumbs in his waist-coat pockets, “to the West Indies, for sugar, tobacco, and rum. Also to Ceylon, specially for elephants’ tusks.”

“You will want a good many ships,” said I.

“A perfect fleet,” said he.

Quite overpowered by the magnificence of these transactions, I asked him where the ships he insured mostly traded to at present?

“I haven’t begun insuring yet,” he replied. “I am looking about me.”

Somehow, that pursuit seemed more in keeping with Barnard’s Inn. I said (in a tone of conviction), “Ah-h!”

“Yes. I am in a counting-house, and looking about me.”

“Is a counting-house profitable?” I asked.

“To—do you mean to the young fellow who’s in it?” he asked, in reply.

“Yes; to you.”

“Why, n-no; not to me.” He said this with the air of one carefully reckoning up and striking a balance. “Not directly profitable. That is, it doesn’t pay me anything, and I have to—keep myself.”

This certainly had not a profitable appearance, and I shook my head as if I would imply that it would be difficult to lay by much accumulative capital from such a source of income.

“But the thing is,” said Herbert Pocket, “that you look about you. That’s the grand thing. You are in a counting-house, you know, and you look about you.”

It struck me as a singular implication that you couldn’t be out of a counting-house, you know, and look about you; but I silently deferred to his experience.

Then the times comes,' said Herbert, 'when you see your opening. And you go in, and you swoop upon it, and you make your capital, and then there you are! When you have once made your capital, you have nothing to do but employ it."

Kim,

That McLenan illustration with all the shadow characters, specters, with only Pip and Mrs. Pocket real, interesting.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I doubt Miss Havisham would ever consider being either's mentor, and in Herbert's case he may have been a tool to get back at his father for his being right about her suitor."

A good point, Xan, and one that really makes me wonder why Mr. Pocket should have cared to have his young son sent over to Miss Havisham at all. I don't know if that particular will get clearer in the course of the novel, or not.

Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "I have just listened to the version I linked...."

Here, try this one, I like it better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSUT..."

*shudder*

Of course, just because it's a white Christmas, which means snow and low temperatures. Why else should I shudder?

Tristram,

Yes, Mr. Pocket, knowing how vengeful Mrs. Havisham was towards himself, makes one wonder why he would have sent his son there. Perhaps we will know better when we meet Mr. Pocket? Was Mr. Pocket the one the relatives (?) were speaking so disparagingly of in the kitchen at Satis House?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Kim,

That McLenan illustration with all the shadow characters, specters, with only Pip and Mrs. Pocket real, interesting."

Xan

I agree. The illustration is strangely interesting. Mrs Pocket seems too young and her image with Pip under the tree seems awarkwardly thrust into the foreground. The shadowy woman between Pip and Mrs Pocket appears to be lecturing Mrs Pocket and what's with the shadowy figure to the left of the tree?

And as for the tree itself ... the limbs above Mrs Pocket appear almost as arms. The limb on the left side of the trunk seems to be growing/reaching down rather than growing and reaching up with leaves which contrasts with the limb growing on the right side of the tree.

Full disclosure :-). I can't even draw a straight line with a ruler so I am definitely not an artist myself.

Kim wrote: "Lecturing on Capital

Chapter 22

Marcus Stone

Text Illustrated:

“I think I shall trade, also,” said he, putting his thumbs in his waist-coat pockets, “to the West Indies, for sugar, tobacco, an..."

Did anyone else think back to Dombey and Son when Herbert talks about trade to the West Indies and Herbert's desire to have "a perfect fleet" of ships is reminiscent of Mr Dombey ( at least in the early chapters).

I like Herbert. Here's hoping he will not meet the same fate as Mr. Dombey.

I really appreciate all the insights into the contrasts between Herbert Pocket and Estella.

I like the way that when the back story of Miss Havisham is related the issue of what makes a gentleman and who is or is not a gentleman is brought up.

I keep thinking of the faces of John Mills and Alec Guinness from David Lean's 1946 film

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Kim,

That McLenan illustration with all the shadow characters, specters, with only Pip and Mrs. Pocket real, interesting."

I am finding it hard to come up with any other illustrations - well, none that aren't comics, which I think we've had enough of for awhile, but of all the illustrators almost none of them seemed to care enough about this chapter to illustrate it. I'm not sure why, I found the chapter very interesting.

Peter wrote: "Did anyone else think back to Dombey and Son when Herbert talks about trade to the West Indies and Herbert's desire to have "a perfect fleet" of ships is reminiscent of Mr Dombey?


Yes, I also thought of Dombey and what I thought was I hope Herbert doesn't get sent to the West Indies for most of the book. Now I probably wouldn't have any objection to Pip being sent there.

Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "Did anyone else think back to Dombey and Son when Herbert talks about trade to the West Indies and Herbert's desire to have "a perfect fleet" of ships is reminiscent of Mr Dombey?


Y..."

Now. If Pip were sent to the West Indies would Dickens bring him back, like Walter, or just leave him there? :-)

Having just recently finished Dombey, I don't think I could do another shipwreck story again so soon!

Well, the way things are going lately (here at home that is) either he would be back all too soon, probably halfway through the book, or worse, we'd be taken to the West Indies with him.

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Tristram,

Yes, Mr. Pocket, knowing how vengeful Mrs. Havisham was towards himself, makes one wonder why he would have sent his son there. Perhaps we will know better when we meet Mr. Pocket? Was M..."

Yes, I think Mr. Matthew Pocket was the one relative all the others were backbiting at Miss Havisham's. And as all those sycophantic fortune-hunters, who evidently hated the guts of each other, were completely in agreement over Matthew's being such a bad man, there are only two conclusions possible - either, he really is a very bad man, or he is the pink of decency. Coming to think of it, it is a very clever device of introducing a character via the talk of other characters because the reader wants to know what the character is like. The best example in literature of doing this is Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, and here, too, it is definitely a way of bringing more suspense into the story.

Now, the last chapter I recapped ended with Mr. Pocket's appearance, and I'm looking forward to starting Chapter 23. If all goes well, I'll do it today and get back to you tomorrow.

Kim wrote: ""Pip and Mrs. Pocket in the garden at Hammersmith, with two nursemaids and children in the background."

She's showing her ankle. Disgraceful!

I agree! :-) I wear long skirts and dresses to church, It isn't that I don't approve of those who wear shorter skirts, I'm just more comfortable in long, down to the ankle clothes. But now they are so, so hard to find. All dresses show the ankles now, among other things, like knees. :-)

I'm afraid the minimum length of skirts - ankle, of course! - will become an issue to me when my daughter has become a little older.

Tristram wrote: "I'm afraid the minimum length of skirts - ankle, of course! - will become an issue to me when my daughter has become a little older."

Thinking of your little daughter, she doesn't happen to have a doll house does she?

Not yet, she has a little shop, a little kitchen and dolls she takes with her to bed. She does not have a doll house yet, which is good, since I find doll houses very eerie.

The pale young gentleman is back! I loved this scene, and I am happy that Pip and Herbert get along so well. It's interesting to think back that Herbert was not "chosen" by Miss Havisham, and was that the day of the fight that he had with Pip? Perhaps that was the reason that he picked a fight?

I also like Herbert's manner at correcting Pip in his manners. He does it in a way that is just matter of fact, and not in a condescending way at all.

Tristram wrote: "She does not have a doll house yet, which is good, since I find doll houses very eerie."

I have a good short story for you to read, I think you might enjoy it, Tristram. It's by Robert Aickman and the short story is called The Inner Room. I read it from Aikman's short story collection The Wine-Dark Sea, but perhaps you could find the story elsewhere too. All I will say is that a dollhouse is the main feature of the story. :)

(edited with correct author link)

The name Robert Aikman somehow rings a bell with me, but I will have to click the link after writing this message to make the bell ring more loudly. If it's a horror story, I will probably like it ;-)

As to Herbert and Pip fighting, did Herbert not say something about Pip's prowling on the premises? So, it was probably still under the influence of being replaced by another boy that Herbert picked that fight.

I'm back and now remember why the name rang a bell, dimly, with me. Simply because I read your last review, Linda. I will see whether I can get some Aickman stories on my Kindle. By the way, the link in your last message leads on to a different Robert Aickman - I don't really know why.

Oh I just realized I linked to the wrong author! I will fix that in my above message.

I realized that the people who enjoyed Aikman's stories more than I did were the people who had more of a classic/mythology reading background under their belt than I did. Still, I enjoyed the unsettling atmosphere present in most of his stories.

Thanks for the tip, Linda! I might download one of his collections one of these days; it sounds like my cup of tea.

Linda wrote: "I have a good short story for you to read, I think you might enjoy it, Tristram. It's by [..."

I'm intrigued, and will try to remember to look this story up. Not that I have anything to go by but the title, but I'm reminded of a couple of different Twilight Zone episodes. :-)

Ah, Twilight Zone! Those were the days ;-)

Tristram wrote: "Hi Fellow-Curiosities,

Our next chapter, Chapter 22, finally gives us some more insight into Miss Havisham’s background story – but first things first. Instead of treating each other with reservat..."

Then there is a last interesting detail, namely Pip’s getting a new name by Herbert: Handel, because of that composer’s piece “The Harmonious Blacksmith”
I was again reminded of "DC," here...When David gets his new name, "Daisy," given to him by Steerforth. Neither David nor Pip mind being given a new name. David, was young and impressionable to Steerforth's ulterior motives, but I'm at a loss as to why Pip allows it.. Pip is impressionable as well, yet he would have the upper hand in comparison to Herbert...Out boxing him, belonging to a better station in life. Although, I do not believe Herbert renamed Pip to demean or emasculate him, he did seem to take great pains in explaining why the name Philip had so many negative connotations for him?

There was something wonderfully hopeful about his general air, and something that at the same time whispered to me he would never be very successful or rich.
Here too, another remembrance of "DC..." Specifically, the David/Tradles relationship.


It turns out Herbert's father is Miss Havisham's cousin, but did anybody wonder how Sara Pockett fits into this scenario, or if she does at all? I've been thinking about her ever since Pip went to Miss Havisham's all dressed in his new clothes before leaving for London...Sara was jealous of Pip's new lease on life, but the looks Miss Havisham was directing towards Sara gave me pause. It was as if Miss Havisham was relishing in the shock Sara was enduring on account of Pip. Why would it matter to Sarah if Pip's circumstances had changed? Could it be she felt left out since both Estella and Pip are off bettering their lives...IDK?

Then there is another, quite funny, passage: breweries and gentility
I found humor here as well. Of course, I questioned the very subject Herbert is talking about here...The oddity in Miss Havisham's family owning a brewery. I should have just kept reading and answered my own question! :)

Pip and Herbert having dinner
I loved this scene as the two young men broke bread and shared in merriment together. For the first time, since Pip has arrived, I felt a general sense of happiness...A simple dinner with a new friend (?) is all it took to leave the ugliness in what Pip observed before heading to Brandis House, regardless of the fact that the house appears to be a death trap (make shift guillotine and all!)!

This mysterious suitor was in league with Miss Havisham’s half-brother,
Did anybody think about who these two men could be when reading this section? I'm still not sure, myself.

Miss Havisham was jilted because her suitor – a gentleman by appearance only, and a showy one at that – was, in fact, already married.
Tristram, was his being married to another confirmed in this section. I thought Herbert said he may have been married...?

Ami wrote: "Then there is a last interesting detail, namely Pip’s getting a new name by Herbert: Handel, because of that composer’s piece “The Harmonious Blacksmith”"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT2AL...

Ami,

I think that Sarah Pocket is so susceptible to Miss Havisham's effort to make her jealous because she is a relative - by cousinship, unless I am mistaken -, and naturally whatever falls to Estella or to Pip will not come into the loot of the family members, once Miss Havisham is lying on that table.

As to Pip's readiness to accept the new name in spite of the "painful" associations with "mere" craftmanship, maybe Pip accepts it because he senses that Herbert is a good-natured fellow and means no harm - and maybe also, because, being new to London and the rather bleak surroundings, he is not as yet self-confident enough to show his objections.

As to Miss Havisham's suitor being married, I can't remember the details that made me think he was, any more - but I think that was the impression I got from Herbert's account.

Everyman,

thanks for the link! Brilliant performance!

It's been a long time since I've read DC, but didn't Betsy Trotwood give David the nickname "Trot"? Nicknames, in my experience, are either loved or hated. Loved if they're affectionately given and show an intimacy between two people, or hated if they're somehow derogatory or used to belittle. And, of course, in Dickens they almost always serve a purpose! But I think of Herbert's dubbing Pip with the name Handel as an affectionate, intimate act.

And, thank you, Everyman, for the lovely musical interlude!

Yes, she did Mary Lou, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder how many Dickens characters had nicknames, I can't remember.