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If Kennedy Lived- March 2017
President John F. Kennedy and first lady Jacqueline Kennedy walk off Air Force One in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. Cecil Stoughton / The White House via EPA file
C-SPAN Book TV interview If Kennedy Lived Jeff Greenfield talked about his book, If Kennedy Lived: The First and Second Terms of President John F. Kennedy: An Alternate History, in which the author imagines how a second Kennedy administration would have governed. In his book, the author presents his thoughts on how, had he not been assassinated, Kennedy would have run his 1964 Presidential campaign and deliberated on Vietnam, the Cold War, and civil rights. Mr. Greenfield spoke at Politics and Prose Bookstore in Washington, D.C.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?315872-...
Oh, thanks for that link, Alias. I'm in the middle of Chapter 4. I like the way Greenfield presents the story in the first couple of chapters. I learned a bit of history and biography already. As i know Dallas, having spent my teen years here, i caught one error in geography but nothing which altered the facts.
I may not be able to start for a few days. I want to finish One Man Against the World: The Tragedy of Richard Nixon first.
This is not a problem, Alias. I am going to hold off reading further, though, so let me know when you are beginning.
OK. I am about 50% done with One Man Against the World: The Tragedy of Richard NixonThere is so much going on it's a bit confusing. But still a good read.
This looks like a fun book. I'll see if I can find it.
Awesome, Barbara. I should be starting it by Saturday.
It'll be great to hear your thoughts about the book, Bobbie. I hope you can find it.
I thought I still had 25% to go in my Nixon book. I was reading it on Kindle. I didn't realize that the last quarter were end notes etc. Anyway, I am done. Will start the Kennedy book.
I hope you can get the book and join us, Barbara !
Isn't that a pleasant surprise? That is a big drawback (for me) in reading nonfiction in eBook version, the endnotes. ANYway, hurrah!
Chapter 1In Chapter 1 it notes that Kennedy was most afraid of running against George Romney. (P7 of hardcover). The Nixon book
I read said the same thing about Nixon's concerns about running against Romney.
I am not familiar with the history on this. Did George Romney ever make a bid for the nomination?
I am not familiar with the histories of some of the players mentioned even though the names are familiar. So I do some bios as I read.
John Connally
John Bowden Connally, Jr. (February 27, 1917 – June 15, 1993), was an American politician. As a Democrat he served as Secretary of the Navy under President John F. Kennedy, as the 39th Governor of Texas, and as Secretary of the Treasury under President Richard Nixon. While Governor of Texas, he was seriously wounded when President Kennedy was assassinated. As Treasury Secretary, Connally is best remembered for removing the U.S. dollar from the gold standard in 1971, an event known as the Nixon shock.
In 1973 he switched parties to become a Republican, and ran unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination for President in 1980.
I also wish, as least in early chapters, the author would use full names and provide some background on the names he is throwing around. For example "Rusk at State". I know he means Dean Rusk. But it would help my reading to have the full name and at least a few sentences on him.
Dean Rusk
David Dean Rusk (February 9, 1909 – December 20, 1994) was the United States Secretary of State from 1961 to 1969 under presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. Rusk is the joint-second-longest serving U.S. Secretary of State of all time, behind only Cordell Hull and tied with William H. Seward.
page 5 I don't want to re-read the chapter. Can you tell me who is Bundy?
"And while his Joint Chiefs, and Rusk at State, and Bundy in the White House were telling him...."
Adlai Stevenson II
Adlai Ewing Stevenson II (/ˈædleɪ/; February 5, 1900 – July 14, 1965) was an American lawyer, politician, and diplomat, noted for his intellectual demeanor, eloquent public speaking, and promotion of progressive causes in the Democratic Party. Stevenson served in numerous positions in the federal government during the 1930s and 1940s, including the Agricultural Adjustment Administration (AAA), Federal Alcohol Administration, United States Department of the Navy, and the United States Department of State. He also served on the committee that created the United Nations, and was a member of the initial US delegations to the United Nations. He was the 31st Governor of Illinois from 1949 to 1953, and received the Democratic Party's nomination for president in 1952 even though he had not campaigned in the primaries.
Stevenson was defeated in a landslide by Republican Dwight D. Eisenhower in the 1952 presidential election. In 1956 he was again the Democratic presidential nominee against Eisenhower, but was defeated in an even greater landslide. He sought the Democratic presidential nomination for a third time in the election of 1960, but was defeated by Senator John F. Kennedy of Massachusetts. After his election, President Kennedy appointed Stevenson as the United States Ambassador to the United Nations. He served from 1961 to 1965. He died on July 14, 1965, from heart failure (after a heart attack) in London, following a United Nations conference in Switzerland. Following public memorial services in New York City, Washington, DC, and his childhood hometown of Bloomington, Illinois, he was buried in his family's section in Bloomington's Evergreen Cemetery.
The prominent historian Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr., who served as one of his speechwriters, wrote that Stevenson was a "great creative figure in American politics. He turned the Democratic Party around in the fifties and made JFK possible...to the United States and the world he was the voice of a reasonable, civilized, and elevated America. He brought a new generation into politics, and moved millions of people in the United States and around the world."[1] Journalist David Halberstam wrote that "Stevenson's gift to the nation was his language, elegant and well-crafted, thoughtful and calming."[2] W. Willard Wirtz, his friend and law partner, once said "If the Electoral College ever gives an honorary degree, it should go to Adlai Stevenson."[3]
McGeorge Bundy..... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGeo...McGeorge "Mac" Bundy (March 30, 1919 – September 16, 1996) was an American expert in foreign and defense policy, serving as United States National Security Advisor to Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson from 1961 through 1966. He was president of the Ford Foundation from 1966 through 1979. Despite his distinguished career as a foreign-policy intellectual, educator, and philanthropist, he is best remembered as one of the chief architects of the United States' escalation of the Vietnam War during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations.
After World War II, during which Bundy served as an intelligence officer, in 1949 he was selected for the Council on Foreign Relations. He worked with a study team on implementation of the Marshall Plan. He was appointed as a professor of government at Harvard University, and in 1953 as its youngest dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, working to develop Harvard as a merit-based university. In 1961 he joined Kennedy's administration. After serving at the Ford Foundation, in 1979 he returned to academia as professor of history at New York University, and later as scholar in residence at the Carnegie Corporation.
I've started, and love the detail given in the Foreword.
Cateline wrote: "McGeorge Bundy..... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGeo...McGeorge "Mac" Bundy (March 30, 1919 – September 16, 1996) was an American expert in foreign and defense policy, serving as United..."
Thanks, Cateline !
I think a list of people at the back of the book would have been helpful.
LOL--i was trying to find George McBundy, even though you typed up the correct name. Thanks, Cateline. Alias, i agree about a list of "players" at the back of the book. While i recognize most of them, i wondered if your youthful self would. George Romney did run for a few months in '68 but it was (again) generally believed his Mormon faith would not fly with US citizens. It didn't help that his parents fled the US when we banned polygamy. So, in addition to everything else there was the fact he was born in Mexico. However, he was a successful businessman, head of GM, i think (some car manufacturer, anyway) & a popular governor of Michigan. OK, i looked it up & he was head of AMC. He must have had some following if JFK was worried about him during the '64 election because Romney only became governor in '62, prior to '61 he wasn't even political.
I wanted to ask if anyone here had heard of the Niall Ferguson term "virtual history", mentioned in the preface (p. xiii)? I looked up and see that it has another name, also unfamiliar to me, counterfactual history. It is neither alternate history nor historic revisionism. From Wiki, "Counterfactual history distinguishes itself through its interest in the very incident that is being negated by the counterfactual, thus seeking to evaluate the event's relative historical importance. Such historians reason arguments for each change, outlining changes in broad terms only, as befits a mere byproduct of the exercise."While its popularity increased during the later parts of the last century, apparently one of the earliest examples is If It Had Happened Otherwise, a collection of essays published in 1931, edited by John Collings Squire. One of the essays was penned by Winston Churchill; it wondered what would have happened had Robert E. Lee had not won Gettysburg. For other essay info, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_It_H... .
In Chapter 2 (hardback p. 34) it states one of RFK's first thoughts after the assassination attempt was about some files. "First, he called national security advisor McGeorge Bundy and had the locks changed on the President's files. If Lyndon Johnson is the president, there's no way he's going to get his hands on those files."
I haven't seen mention of those files since then in the book, unless it was so subtle i missed it. I'm wondering if those were personal or public. One would think that since Bundy was asked to lock them up they were personal. In which case, i don't think LBJ could have gotten his hands on them anyway. But if they were political &/or having to do with the Presidency, it seems wrong-headed not to share them, regardless of the antipathy RFK had for Johnson. Just curious. I suppose technically we don't even know if there were such files.
madrano wrote: "I wanted to ask if anyone here had heard of the Niall Ferguson term "virtual history", mentioned in the preface (p. xiii)? I looked up and see that it has another name, also unfamilia..."I think I have heard of his name. However, I have not read anything by him.
His bio notes, "He is best known outside academia for his revisionist views rehabilitating imperialism and colonialism; within academia, his championing of counterfactual history is a subject of some considerable controversy."
It doesn't sound like something I would be interested in.
Though his book, The Great Degeneration: How Institutions Decay and Economies Die sounds interesting.
madrano wrote:In Chapter 2 (hardback p. 34) it states one of RFK's first thoughts after the assassination attempt was about some files. "First, he called national security advisor McGeorge Bundy and had the locks changed on the President's files. If Lyndon Johnson is the president, there's no way he's going to get his hands on those files.I took it to mean his personal files and correspondence. That would be the only way he could block the next president from seeing them.
I guess the author is alluding to some illegal activity that he wouldn't want public. But why would you keep such files anyway? Though we do have the example of Nixon keeping the tapes so he could write his memoir and also because he feared that Kissinger would alter facts to suit his own image.
See this is what bothers me about this genre. Bobby is told his brother is shot and the author writes, "His first thoughts about his brother were protective-- in two senses. First , he called national security advisor McGeorge Bundy. "
Is this really what he thought first or is it the author painting him in what I would think is a bad light? What is fact and what is fiction? It makes a big difference to me.
LOL--good point about Really his First Thought. I doubt it. Although i don't actually know what the process is. At this point it's uncertain the president will die or not. IF at death, the FBI or Secret Service are charged with securing the Oval Office & all materials, then maybe this sort of haste is vital.Still, as you wrote, why would they keep some of them? For their own edification? It still seems to be trying to cheat accurate history.
As i was writing the title for my notes, i wondered if someone is already writing this book about the Trump administration. Not if he lived but if he was impeached, imagining all the changes he wants actually enacted. Someday, maybe?
I must say your problem with this kind of literature is akin to mine. I'm not liking it. However, i want to add that the afterword apparently will tell readers the sources for some of his speculation. I don't know that i'll care by that point, but we'll see. :-)
madrano wrote: Although i don't actually know what the process is. At this point it's uncertain the president will die or not. IF at death, the FBI or Secret Service are charged with securing the Oval Office & all materials, then maybe this sort of haste is vital.Good point, deb. I never thought about the process for his personal effects in the case of death.
It's interesting with the Nixon book I just read, many of the documents only recently came available to the public and that is why the author wrote the book.
I'm not clear if that is a standard legal process or if that was a legal deal Nixon struck.
With my horrible memory, I am just concerned with mixing fact and fiction and that I will mix everything up and I'll start thinking Nixon was married to Jackie and who knows what else I will confuse. LOL
I really don't see what the point is with these "what if" scenarios. I guess I am too literal minded. I'm trying to find the H.W. Brands article on why this book is important. He may have mentioned Brands in the Book TV video I linked to. So far I can't find it.
Anyway, I will start chapter 3 tonight.
Chapter 3Senator Yarborough
November 1963
Yarborough rode in the Dallas motorcade in which John F. Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963. He was in a convertible with Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson, Lady Bird Johnson (who sat between Yarborough and Johnson), United States Secret Service agent Rufus Youngblood, and Hurchel Jacks of the Texas State Highway Patrol.
--------------
Here is an interesting link on the Senator
The Senator who Suspected a JFK Conspiracy
Ralph Yarborough was a Texas Democratic politician who served in the United States Senate (1957 until 1971) and was a leader of the progressive or liberal wing of the Democratic Party in Texas. Yarborough was a very different kind of Southern senator. He refused to sign the Southern Manifesto opposing integration and supported national Democratic goals of more funding for healthcare, education, and the environment. In a state now famous for closeness between business interests and politicians (LBJ, George W. Bush), Yarborough combated the dominant industries of oil and gas, always pushing for these industries to assume their fair share of the tax burden.
In 1963, on the day John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Ralph Yarborough rode in the motorcade only two cars back from the presidential limousine. Yarborough was in the same convertible as Vice President Lyndon Johnson, Lady Bird Johnson, and secret service agent Rufus Youngblood.
--Wikipedia
In several interviews, Yarborough voiced suspicions of a JFK conspiracy.
Yarborough's Suspicion of "The Military-Industrial Complex"
"As we approached the city and then finally turned down Main Street toward the Trinity River, the crowd increased as we got to the heart of Dallas ... and one of the most enthusiastic crowds we saw in any city we ran into in Texas on that tour ... that's on the sidewalks. Now if you looked up, in the upper stories, I never saw a single smile in any window I looked at. Some looked down ... it looked like ... with dislike on their faces."
--former Senator Ralph Yarborough, interviewed in the documentary, The Men Who Killed Kennedy: Part 1: The Coup D'etat
"Had Kennedy lived, I think we would have had no Vietnam war, with all of its traumatic and divisive influences in America. I think we would have escaped that. I think the world would have escaped the 50,000 odd Americans dead and 300,000 more wounded and over half a million more hooked on dangerous drugs ... tropical diseases ... the divisiveness of that war that so many of the people thought unjustified and unnecessary ... and that we shouldn't have been there ... that split this country. Sadly, many of those things have lingered on since."
--former senator Ralph Yarborough, interviewed in the documentary, The Men Who Killed Kennedy: Part 5: The Witnesses
Yarborough's Suspicion of Lyndon Johnson
"There is the well-publicized story of Agent Rufus Youngblood, who reportedly threw himself on top of Vice President Johnson after the shooting began in Dealey Plaza.... Johnson, in a statement to the Warren Commission, mentioned the incident:
I was startled by a sharp report or explosion, but I had no time to speculate as to its origin because Agent Youngblood turned in a flash, immediately after the first explosion, hitting me on the shoulder, and shouted to all of us in the back seat to get down. I was pushed down by Agent Youngblood. Almost in the same moment in which he hit or pushed me, he vaulted over the back seat and sat on me. I was bent over under the weight of Agent Youngblood's body, toward Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough....
However, former Texas senator Ralph Yarborough, who was sitting beside Johnson that day, told this author: 'It just didn't happen.... It was a small car, Johnson was a big man, tall. His knees were up against his chin as it was. There was no room for that to happen.' Yarborough recalled that both Johnson and Youngblood ducked down as the shooting began and that Youngblood never left the front seat. Yarborough said Youngblood held a small walkie-talkie over the back of the car's seat and that he and Johnson both put their ears to the device. He added: 'They had it turned down real low. I couldn't hear what they were listening to.'"
--Jim Marrs, Crossfire: The Plot that Killed Kennedy
Yarborough's Suspicion of the Warren Commission Investigators
"A couple of fellows [from the Warren Commission] came to see me. They walked in like they were a couple of deputy sheriffs and I was a bank robber. I didn't like their attitude. As a senator I felt insulted. They went off and wrote up something and brought it back for me to sign. But I refused. I threw it in a drawer and let it lay there for weeks. And they had on there the last sentence which stated: 'This is all I know about the assassination.' They wanted me to sign this thing, then say this is all I know. Of course, I would never have signed it. Finally, after some weeks, they began to bug me. 'You're holding this up, you're holding this up' they said, demanding that I sign the report. So I typed one up myself and put basically what I told you about how the cars all stopped. I put in there, 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future presidents, they should be trained to take off when a shot is fired.' I sent that over. That's dated July 10, 1964, after the assassination. To my surprise, when the volumes were finally printed and came out, I was surprised at how many people down at the White House didn't file their affidavits until after the date, after mine the 10th of July, waiting to see what I was going to say before they filed theirs. I began to lose confidence then in their investigation and that's further eroded with time."
--Jim Marrs, Crossfire: The Plot that Killed Kennedy
http://www.oocities.org/senatoryarbor...
Chapter 3P49
January 8th issue of Life magazine.
Lyndon Johnson's Millions how did a lifelong public servant get so rich?
Am I correct that this would be the Jan. 8th 1964 issue?
If so this seems to be made-up.
http://www.oldlifemagazines.com/the-1...
Maybe I just can't locate the cover. All I know is this book will take me a year to read if I try to figure out fact from fiction.
** I did find this article in the August 21 Chicago Tribune that talks about the Life article. But the news article is from August. So maybe it's in the August issue.
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/19...
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From the web selling the magazine
Life Magazine August 14, 1964 : Cover - Lyndon Baines Johnson, President, first of two-part portrait.
It doesn't seem to say anything about how he made his money. Though the print is difficult to read.
U.S. strikes back at North Vietnam. Two page, limited color, Sears ad with full page illustration of "The First Day of School," by Norman Rockwell. Aboard the USS Maddox. Ranger Vii scores historic bull's eye and reveals details of the moon never before seen, with Mike Ramus drawings of the contraption. FBI excavates a dam and finds the bodies of three young civil rights workers missing for 43 days. Clearing an artery - with plumbing style snake, Dr. Charles Dotter. Vanderbilts, photo essay by Toni Frissell, portraits of the family and the many houses. LIFE poll, who do the people want for LBJ's Vice President? Buster Keaton bounces back. New travel section, trip to the Vale of Kashmir. full page color Kellogg's Rice Krispies ad with Asian characters and theme. 1.0
https://2neatmagazines.com/life/1964....
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******Edit
OK. Now I see a note at the back of the book regarding the magazine article. P. 233
Though I am not clear if it was front page on Life as stated in the text and was it January 8th or some other date. Color me frustrated !
I think the author should have put end-notes markers in the text to alert the reader. That would have helped with the fact/fiction issue.
Greenfield says this is covered in
The Passage of Power----Robert A. Caro
I'm a little more than halfway through, and the politics, and the plethora of names thrown at the reader is a little dizzying. At the end of Chapter 2 there is a heart rending moment when Dean Acheson comments on the terrible outcome if Kennedy had been killed. And, back on p. 34 the mention of the President's files (that y'all have commented on) seems to me to be the private files that it is purported that many leaders keep on their enemies, or perceived enemies, aka blackmail files. So that type of file could have only helped Johnson and that's about the last thing Bobby would have wanted.
I've never been a fan of "alternative history", and have started a couple in the past, and abandoned them. I'll continue this one, but it kind of leaves a bad/skeptical taste in my mouth. This is in spite of the author's statements in the Preface as to the authenticity of his extrapolations. If if were a skiff and all that. :)
Oh, meant to ask if anyone has read Stephen King's 11/22/63. I don't really count this as an alternative history, it's more one man's struggle with history. No horror, just a bit of....otherworldliness. And inevitability.
Cateline wrote: "Oh, meant to ask if anyone has read Stephen King's 11/22/63. I don't really count this as an alternative history, it's more one man's struggle with history. No horror, just a bit o..."
I read it. I see I gave it 4/5 stars. I seem to recall it was good but not great.
Cateline wrote: "I'm a little more than halfway through, and the politics, and the plethora of names thrown at the reader is a little dizzying. .."I am so glad to read this. I was wondering if it was just me that found the deluge of names confusing.
Your ahead of me. I'll try to get some reading in today.
The longest, most boring speech i ever heard was given by Ralph Yarborough when my husband got his BBA and RY was the speaker. Worse, we were sitting on bleachers, outside, in Texas, in May, on a sunny day. EVEN worse, the next day my husband got his draft notice. ANYway, i agree with you both, i am not a fan of this book at all. Imagining how things might have been is fun if you are just sitting around with friends but this is tiring. I finished last night & saw in the end notes that this is his SECOND "what if" book about JFK. The first is about what would have happened if Pavlick succeeded killing him before the electoral college. Now that would be a good book without the speculating!
I'll post more tomorrow.
My friend and neighbor read this book and liked it. I saw her yesterday and she said maybe because she had just readLyndon Johnson and the American Dream: The Most Revealing Portrait Of A President And Presidential Power---Doris Kearns Goodwin
I will read more today. I have my library group meeting for the book this Thursday.
I can see why you know Ralph Yarborough, deb. Not a pleasant memory.
There were some things about the times i didn't have a clue and cannot remember reading, such as the first assassination attempt. Such a small act meaning so much. I suppose that's one of the reasons i enjoy history--the looking backward to see where a blessing or a buffoon began.CHAPTER 2, p. 32-hardback.
I wasn't previously aware of Admiral's presence in Parkland Hospital 11/22/63. I guess this means he traveled with JFK? Does an MD travel with all our presidents, i wonder?
CHAPTER 3.
Alias, you wondered about that Life magazine. My guess is that Greenfield took the article to expansion, making way for no VEEP. I'm not sure why he did this. A VP being impeached would reflect on ANY administration, so i'm surprised JFK pretty much stood by and watched. I know Greenfield seemed to think it was part of the change of life attitude the President had after surviving but i'm just not sure.
I will add something to the proposed (& aborted) visit to LBJ's Texas home. On tour there they show visitors the kitchen. On top of the oven, as though just removed from the oven, sits a pecan pie. The Lore of the Visit is that the maid/cook heard that Jacqueline Kennedy mentioned to someone (maybe LadyBird, i've forgotten that part) that she had never tasted pecan pie. As Texas is proud of its pecans, they made certain to back a pie so she could sample the delight.
At the LBJ library their accumulated wealth by the time he was elected VP is said to be a result of an inheritance to Lady Bird. History records this is true, as is the fact that Texas law (at least at the time) didn't allow spouses a share in items bought with inherited money, so it truly was hers. They also credit her own business acumen, adding television stations after breaking through with the first one, a radio station.
Did he use his influence? They claim he did but i am not sure it is much more than the attention to detail citizens afford a title, such as Congressman. That's what we do as humans. What they appeared to do was use their access to boards which passed along requests for radio stations.
I finished last night. I'd have preferred a more personal story, not what I found to be a bit cut and dried notion of Kennedys political life/possibilities. And to be honest rather Pollyanna(ish) in conclusions.The majority of the names were familiar to me, but for someone not around then they came way to fast and furious to be effectively integrated into the story.
There was a bit toward the beginning, and I'll paraphrase, that spoke of how thankful they were for the rain and bubble top that day, that the alternative (the truth) would have been too awful to contemplate.
This reminds me of time travel stories where someone goes back to right a wrong, and either enable what happened, or Time readjusts to bring about the same results. I love time travel tales, but this alternative history story doesn't move me to search for more like it.
deb CHAPTER 2, p. 32-hardback.
I wasn't previously aware of Admiral's presence in Parkland Hospital 11/22/63. I guess this means he traveled with JFK? Does an MD travel with all our presidents, i wonder?
The White House physician has an office inside the White House. ... The White House Physician is metaphorically the "shadow of the President" because he or she is always close at hand whether the President is at the White House, overseas, on the campaign trail, or aboard presidential plane Air Force One.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physici...
madrano wrote: At the LBJ library their accumulated wealth by the time he was elected VP is said to be a result of an inheritance to Lady Bird. History records this is true, as is the fact that Texas law (at least at the time) didn't allow spouses a share in items bought with inherited money, so it truly was hers. They also credit her own business acumen, adding television stations after breaking through with the first one, a radio station.Did he use his influence? They claim he did but i am not sure it is much more than the attention to detail citizens afford a title, such as Congressman. That's what we do as humans. What they appeared to do was use their access to boards which passed along requests for radio stations. .."
I don't know a lot about this time. My impression was the LBJ decided not to run for re-election because of the mess in Vietnam. We had people rioting in the streets.
My question is they say it would have been too much for the public to delve into LBJ's alleged financial misconduct after the JFK assassination. So they gave him a pass. Though apparently it was discussed either in Life or some some articles in the press. Was this perhaps the reason he decided not to run again and not the war as I had always thought? I'm confused on the whole topic.
Cateline wrote: "I finished last night. I'd have preferred a more personal story, not what I found to be a bit cut and dried notion of Kennedys political life/possibilities. And to be honest rather Pollyanna(ish) i..."Wow, you guys read quickly ! I have some errands to run this afternoon. I hope to get in some solid reading tonight. Sorry I am so slow.
Well, I quickly plowed through this painful read and finished it. I found the book very disjointed. He jumps around from topic to topic and even year to year. Way too much is thrown at the reader at warp speed with very little plot or story line. It was this happened, then this, then this.... until my head was spinning.
I wanted a more narrative story about the man. This was more inside politics.
What was real? What was fiction? To be honest halfway through the book I no longer cared. I stopped looking stuff up on the internet. Perhaps if it was a nonfiction book I would have put the effort into organizing the info.
Twice towards the end the author did something that I wasn't sure if it was made up and supposed to be a bit of a joke or real.
On page 203 he quotes Nixon. "If true, Richard Nixon argued in a speech to Illinois auto dealers, It is an unconscionable, indefensible, if not impeachable abuse of power. Just because a president does it doe not mean it's legal."
Of course this is the opposite of the famous Frost/Nixon interview.
Frost:...Would you say that there are certain situations - and the Huston Plan was one of them - where the president can decide that it's in the best interests of the nation, and do something illegal?
Nixon: Well, when the president does it, that means it is not illegal.
Frost: By definition.
Nixon: Exactly, exactly. If the president, for example, approves something because of the national security, or in this case because of a threat to internal peace and order of significant magnitude, then the president's decision in that instance is one that enables those who carry it out, to carry it out without violating a law. Otherwise they're in an impossible position.
Page 222 you have the Al Gore quote.
"It'd be damn hard for a national candidate to lose his home state."
Of course Gore famously lost his home state in his bid for the presidency. If he had won his home state he would have been president.
So did Gore really say that or was it a joke by the author?
I noted on page 206 Jimmy Breslin is mentioned. If you read our obit thread, you will know he died today at 88 years old.
As to Jackie leaving him. Who knows. This tidbit seems out of context with the rest of the book. I wish he would have discussed the man more and his personal life. As it was the JFK in this book had no depth. I came away not really knowing the man any more, then before.
That is a big contrast to the book on Nixon I just read. Even though the author of One Man Against the World: The Tragedy of Richard Nixon had a major anti Nixon bias, I still felt like I got to know the man a bit better and the events of that time.
Bottom line. This book was simply a hot mess. :(
Page 129I did look up the movie Dr. Strangelove. I've heard of it but never saw it. I do enjoy George C. Scott's acting. The clip on the internet made me want to see the movie.
Dr. Strangelove (1964) - War Room Scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuP6K...
Page 155 The song Little boxes is mentioned. I know the song from Pete Seeger. (Miss you Pete ! ♥ )
I thought he wrote it. I guess not.
Pete Seeger - Little Boxes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-sQS...
Little Boxes by Pete Seeger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUwUp...
Links for some books mentioned.I own but have not yet read.
The Making of the President 1960-Theodore H. White
The Other America: Poverty in the United States-Michael Harrington
Why Not Victory: ? a Fresh Look at American Foreign Policy--Barry M. Goldwater
Cateline wrote: "I love time travel tales, but this alternative history story doesn't move me to search for more like it. ..."I couldn't have put it better myself, Cateline. I hope to never read another one, particularly if Greenfield wrote it. This was boring and blotchy. It almost appeared as though someone said that since he wrote the other scenario (JFK killed pre-inauguration), he should write this one, so he did.
That Alias mentioned she stopped caring half way through rang true to me, too. I think this is why i finished so fast, i just wanted it over. LOL.
I'm not sure LBJ's finances mattered that much after he became president. At least not enough to try to impeach him but i'm sure campaigns would mention it. I remember the Billie Sol Estes stuff, probably because we lived in Texas & many people here were associated with him.
Delving into LBJ's finances would have meant he'd be fighting like a wildcat & i have no doubt Senators & Congressional Reps didn't want their finances explored. Better to let it go. I only remember the war as being the reason he couldn't be elected. It's my understanding he was open to being drafted but had no chance for that, imo.
Re. the Gore, Clinton and other quotes. I thing Greenfield is having fun there. Could be i'm wrong but it sounds too convenient. Now, the Nixon thing i'm less sure about because that man never gave up the dream of being President, so probably did say those things. Heck, i'll bet we could research all he said and learned he spoke on both sides of most issues. (Not that he is alone in that political situation, i hasten to add.)
Alias, thank you for the info on the MD & the President. I had no idea. Indeed, i think all i knew about presidential health was the annual Walter Reed Hospital exam given & shared results with the public. I presume Trump won't do that, either.
ANYway, i wanted to mention that Dr. Strangelove was an odd movie. Frankly, i grew to love it more years after i saw it than i did at the time. Maybe i was still too worried about "the bomb" to find a humorous movie about it entertaining. Now it is a curiosity and more fun to view. Peter Sellers's character was over-the-top, which may have been to make a point about someone else, but it missed it's mark with me then AND now.
It is such a relief to know i was not alone in my opinion of this book. A big part of the disappointment was the fact it is an alternative history, which i now know i do not like. However, i think the story was disjointed and the writing not particularly good. I don't know what i expected, to be honest with you but this wasn't it.
I meant to add some points from my notes. The first is, while i recognized people JFK drew upon in the White House & on staff, the name Symington is one i've barely heard of in the past or recently. I'm surprised the book gave him as much attention as it did. Maybe he just never connected to my memory but he is a cypher to me, even after seeing his picture.In reading about Vietnam i wondered about Laos. The explanation was rather vague. I suppose it's another one of those things which works if the war is avoided but since it wasn't, it's lost to most of us.
I didn't know the SDS had been around as long as it had. My impression was that it sprang from the anti-war movement, so this was a bit of history for me. Tom Hayden's assessment of how different protests would have been is probably correct. Flower Power, Free Love, etc., was the flip side of the war protests. IF there had been both Peace Corps & a service providing the same in the US (i've forgotten their name for it, Ameri-something?), i think that, too, would have diluted the movement.
In Chapter 6, Greenfield wrote (p. 233) the “real, wholesale distrust of government was found predominantly on the fringes of the political right…”, he quotes historian Richard Hofstader’s phrase “the paranoid style in American politics”. Curiously, to me, the rest of us followed that mistrust DUE TO Kennedy’s assassination and the notions of responsibility which were offered (CIA, FBI, Mafia, Cuba, etc.). I think until the assassination mistrust was only the right-right wing which saw conspiracies everywhere. Without the assassination (&, if Greenfield's right, the war), i think the rest of the country would have waited until Watergate to become this way.
And then there is the war. I've heard this idea previously but i'm not sure this is true. Unfortunately i don't know enough about the JFK era to know how invested they were but it seems unlikely that the country could have gone so far off track. They were still going to listen to the Generals and the Right who truly believed in the Domino Theory. Those two words were bandied about much more than Greenfield reports, imo.
I think that's the end of points i wanted to mention. Even though i wasn't fond of the book, it was good to explore this genre with others here. It helps me know i wasn't alone in my distaste for it. :-)
madrano wrote:Re. the Gore, Clinton and other quotes. I thing Greenfield is having fun there. Could be i'm wrong but it sounds too convenient. Now, the Nixon thing i'm less sure about because that man never gave up the dream of being President, so probably did say those things. ..."Deb, thanks for answering my question.
Even thought I gave this book a 1 GR star. Which is something I don't do often. I do plan on reading another Alt History book.
The Plot Against America---Philip Roth My impression is that it is told like a fictional story. Which the Kennedy book was not. I'll give the Roth book a short leash.
Alias Reader wrote: "Page 129I did look up the movie Dr. Strangelove. I've heard of it but never saw it. I do enjoy George C. Scott's acting. The clip on the internet made me want to see the movie.
Dr. Strangelove ..."
I's seen parts of Dr. Strangelove, but I really can't stand Peter Sellers, so kind of gave up on it.
Seems to me that Seven Days In May by Fletcher Knebel was mentioned in the book. I read it when it came out, and boy, oh boy! Good stuff. Must go back for a reread. :)
Cateline wrote: Seems to me that Seven Days In May by Fletcher Knebel was mentioned in the book. I read it when it came out, and boy, oh boy! Good stuff. Must go back for a reread. :)Sounds like a very good thriller. Thanks for the link.
I'd forgotten that book was mentioned in this book. I agree, it was a goodie. It may be one of the first political thrillers i read. That genre keeps one reading, i must say. Alias, you are a stronger person than i am. I don't think i could take another alternative history book anytime soon.
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Plot Against America (other topics)11/22/63 (other topics)
The Warren Commission Report: The Official Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy (other topics)
The Harder They Come (other topics)
The Plot Against America (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Philip Roth (other topics)T. Coraghessan Boyle (other topics)
Fletcher Knebel (other topics)
Philip Roth (other topics)
Theodore H. White (other topics)
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Book:
Author: Jeff Greenfield
JEFF GREENFIELD is the host of the PBS news show Need to Know, a Yahoo! News columnist, and a veteran of CBS News, ABC News, and CNN. A five-time Emmy
Award winner, he is the author of twelve books. He lives in New York City and Santa Barbara.
When: Start reading at your own pace 3/13/17
Where: The entire discussion will take place in this thread.
Spoiler Etiquette: If discussing a major plot element in you post, please put the Chapter # at the top of your post and the words SPOILER
Book Details-
hardcover is 245 pages
Kindle & Nook are selling the book for $6
Book is available in paperback
Synopsis:
What if Kennedy were not killed that fateful day? What would the 1964 campaign have looked like? Would changes have been made to the ticket? How would Kennedy, in his second term, have approached Vietnam, civil rights, the Cold War? With Hoover as an enemy, would his indiscreet private life finally have become public? Would his health issues have become so severe as to literally cripple his presidency? And what small turns of fate in the days and years before Dallas might have kept him from ever reaching the White House in the first place?
The answers Greenfield provides and the scenarios he develops are startlingly realistic, rich in detail, shocking in their projections, but always deeply, remarkably plausible. If Kennedy Lived is a tour de force of American history from one of the country’s most brilliant and illuminating political commentators.