World, Writing, Wealth discussion

There is no such thing as completely bad or completely good. It is a matter of perspective and a highly subjective issue.

I don;t know about that. I think that there are some things that we can agree were all bad.

Matthew wrote: "I don;t know about that. I think that there are some things that we can agree were all bad."

A murderer will justify his intentions as being good, wouldn't he?

Of course a murderer would, as would a person guilty of genocide, child slavery, or rape. I think that the fact they feel the need to justify it seems to indicate that they themselves know that what they are doing is wrong.

Matthew wrote: "Of course a murderer would, as would a person guilty of genocide, child slavery, or rape. I think that the fact they feel the need to justify it seems to indicate that they themselves know that wha..."

If Hitler knew what he was doing was wrong, would he have done it? You or I wouldn't.

Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Of course a murderer would, as would a person guilty of genocide, child slavery, or rape. I think that the fact they feel the need to justify it seems to indicate that they themselv..."

It's not as simple as that. People react to the instinct that they ar in the wrong usually with denial. We may know we are wrong, but we don't want to admit it. Case in point, men like Hitler were motivated by deep-seated senses of inferiority. They needed people to blame and did the things they did because they desired to feel powerful and in control. And their actions led to escalating levels of paranoia and increasing desires for control. I would say that showed that on some level, they knew they were evil men.

Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Of course a murderer would, as would a person guilty of genocide, child slavery, or rape. I think that the fact they feel the need to justify it seems to indicate th..."

Matthew, Hitler's genocide is a bad subject. Every time I hear it, I go bonkers. They didn't go out of their way to just kill Jews. They went out of their way to stop the rampant disease spreading throughout the concentration camps. They weren't just Jews, they were all the weak and sick. The healthy people were utilized as labor (slave). We have to remember (and this is always forgotten), one third of the terminated were Jews, the rest were non-Jews. It is never mentioned that between 18 - 24 million people died in the concentration camps. 6 million people are unaccounted for. History is ever change this fact.

GR wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Of course a murderer would, as would a person guilty of genocide, child slavery, or rape. I think that the fact they feel the need to justify it seem..."

That is correct those gas chambers had gypsies and disabled people as well. I don't understand the mindset of "bad" people.

I think there is quite a consensus about Hitler and his atrocious acts..
And there are clearly good/bad things. With all the justifications most people probably know deep down the real essence of their behavior: some just don't care and never give it a second thought, others invest in self-deceit...
However more abundant than clear cases, are moral dilemmas and questions of choice/absence of choice...
As far as I know, murder is prohibited everywhere (a consensus), while a death penalty for it would be a controversial issue.

Nik wrote: "I think there is quite a consensus about Hitler and his atrocious acts..
And there are clearly good/bad things. With all the justifications most people probably know deep down the real essence of t..."

I don't have any problems with death penalty where convicted murderers like Hitler and the likes are concerned.

GR wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Of course a murderer would, as would a person guilty of genocide, child slavery, or rape. I think that the fact they feel the need to justify it seem..."

As a historian, I can tell you that what you are saying is riddled with inaccuracies. Not only are the non-Jewish members that were imprisoned and died in the concentration camps acknowledged, but your figures and your characterization of what happened are off.

For starters, the figure you mentioned is inaccurate, as the most liberal estimates go as high as 21 million. And that includes all those who were interred and died in both concentration camps and ghettos across Europe for a combination of reasons. We of course know of the 6 million Jews who were exterminated as part of the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question".

From 1942 onward, this meant that camps like Buchenwald, Dachau, Treblinka, and Auschwitz were converted to exterminating Jewish prisoners. The old policy of killing only the sick and weak and utilizing the others for slave labor ended with this order. Only those camps reserved to hard labor still enacted this policy, until they too were ordered to send their prisoners to one of the larger camps for "processing".

An additional 5 million have been documented to have died in the camps as well - a combination of Soviet POWs, Romani, mentally handicapped people, gays, and Catholics. Only by the broadest definition do we get figures that range from 15 to 21 million people, which includes people dying from displacement, disease, and famine. These victims were NOT part of the Final Solution, which was aimed at exterminating Jews exclusively.

What's more, the research into these numbers is being conducted by (among others) the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which endorses the most liberal estimates of the death toll associated with the Nazi occupation and concentration camps. Claiming there's some kind of effort to ignore or neglect the other victims is nonsense.

I don't see Hitler's genocide as a "bad subject". I think it is something that needs to be acknowledged and discussed. Largely because of the amount of false claims out there that say there's "misinformation" or things being forgotten. In truth, the misinformation comes in the form of claiming it didn't happen, or that the numbers and focus of the Holocaust are being misrepresented.

Maybe we can never really understand what went on in Hitler's Germany, other than that Hitler was a bit of a nutter that descended into inherently evil. As I understand it the camps like Oranienburg, Dachau and Ravensbruck started out as a means to keep Germans in line - a sort or warning: tow the line or this is where you will end up. By the time of the final solution, it was just pure evil. Similarly, I guess you could say Mother Theresa (spelling?) was inherently good. However, I think for most people, and in general, for writing, people are a mix. I don't think you want to write characters like Hitler (unless writing about Hitler) because there is no scope for decision making. If everything a character does is predestined, it makes for more boring reading.

Mehreen wrote: "GR wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Of course a murderer would, as would a person guilty of genocide, child slavery, or rape. I think that the fact they feel the need to just..."

And a lot of political people, too. My uncle's whole family was taken to the concentration camps due to opposing Hitler. And they were Catholic.

GR wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "GR wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Mehreen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Of course a murderer would, as would a person guilty of genocide, child slavery, or rape. I think that the fact they feel ..."

There you go!

Yes, countless political prisoners and religious minorities were taken to the camps as well. But that hardly means anyone's being ignored here, or that some people are getting more than their fair share of attention. As I said, the figure GR cites is derived from taking into account ALL those who died in any and all Nazi camps all across Europe.

The Holocaust, by which I mean the deliberate attempt at exterminating Europe's Jews, was the hallmark of the Nazi concentration camps. They were not only the largest group targeted, they were specifically targeted for extermination. Others who died died as the result of arbitrary murder, starvation, neglect and exposure.

So why GR would go bonkers over hearing this is beyond me. Nobody's suffering takes precedence over another's, but let's not make false claims or misrepresent history here.

Matthew is right. There is no point in putting one lot of suffering over others. There were others not mentioned that were targeted for extermination - gypsies, the deformed, etc - and the camps were just plain horrible.

Ian wrote: "Matthew is right. There is no point in putting one lot of suffering over others. There were others not mentioned that were targeted for extermination - gypsies, the deformed, etc - and the camps we..."

I have mentioned gypsies and deformed in my comment above.

oops - sorry, Mehreen

Ian wrote: "oops - sorry, Mehreen"

No harm done. you've been scooped that's all.

Our society tends to judge people by how they look and frequently rewards ones who fit into certain stereotypes. (Sound familiar?) Bad or good?

Judging people by appearance - good or bad?

It's sorry to say, but women are judged by their looks, men by their credibility. We are not judged by our talents, unfortunately.

Talents - sometimes takes too long to discover -:)
As Scout mentioned, but under a different angle: the problem is that some people immediately attach all the stereotypes they heard or know about a certain place, prejudices they heard and so on to anyone they meet, see or hear about...

Faith wrote: "GR wrote: "It's sorry to say, but women are judged by their looks, men by their credibility. We are not judged by our talents, unfortunately."
I picked this up at a lecture: If a young person walks..."

I've said this before on this site, and what you said triggered what happened to me. I finally retired at the age of 71. Everybody was over joyed. I was the only person in the building over 35. Most were under 25. They kept pushing me to retire. They said I was taking up work someone younger could gain experience from. So you can see the mind set, I was working for the US Army in Germany.

The army has a peculiar way of describing a job. You do what the job description is -- plus. I figured this is what they did to me: they had me do all PLUSes. It got to the point I wasn't doing my job description: publication design and prep for printing. So, I quit.

I'll say one thing for the hirer, she was beautiful and 21, and had all the requirements needed to satisfy the younger guys. But, she had one fault, she couldn't do the publications requirements. She knew nothing about graphic and illustrator programs or print prep software. The only thing she could do on the computer was type. Then they called me in after a month and asked me to train her. I told them they couldn't pay me enough.

The adage "Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder." is literally true. Individual perception of physical beauty is impacted by culture, tradition, prejudice, upbringing and personal philosophy.

I have had my fair share of experience with members of the opposite sex during my 69 1/2 years of life. One of the most important and self-serving things that I have discovered is that most women are beautiful, especially those who think they are not.

I've always loved the opening to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:

"What is good, what is bad, and do we need anyone to tell us these things?"