The Sword and Laser discussion
Anyone else find reading about sex (in fiction) and/or reading profanity to be awkward?
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Absolutely not! Those are all parts of life and other scenarios, so why should I feel awkward, whether reading about it or living it?It just doesn't bother me at all. It's the quality of the writing that counts. Now, I admit your examples are particularly cheezy ones, and my eyes would roll too, but I wouldn't feel awkward.
Steve wrote: "Absolutely not! Those are all parts of life and other scenarios, so why should I feel awkward, whether reading about it or living it?It just doesn't bother me at all. It's the quality of the writ..."
Your first paragraph is why I'm so mystified at my finding it awkward. Certainly don't find it awkward when visually depicted. Trying to figure out what it is about words.
I once got it in my head to try and sit down and actually *write* a graphic sex scene. I... it was uncomfortable. I did not succeed in my task.
Steve wrote: "Absolutely not! Those are all parts of life and other scenarios, so why should I feel awkward, whether reading about it or living it?"So's taking a dump and changing a tampon, yet oddly those are somewhat scarce in fiction.
The problem with sex scenes is that anything with the words penis, vagina, phallic, or any other medical term, kind of kills the mood for sex. From the examples you've listed, it's no wonder you would find them off putting. Sex scenes are hard to write without sounding awkward or disgusting.I've found that the best written sex scenes usually leave out the body parts altogether or, mention them in passing and let you fill in the blank.
She sank into him.
He pressed upon her.
The bed creaked under their weight.
Their moaning was heard through the walls.
Once you talk about stroking scrotums or whatever, the mood is most certainly killed.
I think Stephen King actually did a nice job with the description of a sex scene in The Shining. "Her breasts tumbled out of her blouse." He never goes into detail about penetration or things like that, he let's you fill in the blank with his descriptions.
In the case of sex scenes, I strongly believe that less is more.
Also, I do agree with you that curse words seem to come out stronger in text. That's why I prefer not to use them in my books because they stand out like a sore thumb.
I prefer to save a curse word for a KO punch when there's going to be a triumphant victory or it's just highly appropriate for the moment. But to just drop it in willy nilly seems pointless UNLESS that kind of language is part of the character.
Just my opinion.
I find most graphic sex scenes mostly boring, amusing, or embarrassing for the author. Mostly because they seem to think sex is all about the mechanics and they forget sex starts in your head, with your thoughts, emotions, senses. And yes, the constant attempts to find new descriptive terms for everything can get ridiculous. Leave out the Tab A into Slot B, we all know how it works.Cursing/profanity doesn't bother me unless it doesn't seem to flow naturally from the characters. Like on Orphan Black, Sarah curses very naturally, Cosima only when shocked or angry, and Allison censors herself almost always - each character fits the style of the curses.
I did try to read Chuck Wendig's Blackbirds and was very annoyed by the cursing. He seemed to be putting together as many strange combinations of curses as he could think of. It was weird. And it seemed like all the cursing was supposed to convince me the MC was a real badass, but I kept thinking she sounded pretty stupid. Had to lem it after a couple chapters.
As several folks here have noted also, I think it has a lot to do with the writing. Sex scenes and/or using profanity seem to be distinct skills. In speaking, some people can't curse properly, and it's awkward to listen to. Similarly, some folks don't have the right written voice for sex or vulgarity.I would only add that there's a second category: the psychology. At a certain level, one associates the reading experience not only with the writer, but also with the reader. So, as one is reading, one is constantly asking oneself: "Why would someone write this?" and "Why am I reading it?"
So, let's say you're reading a book about Martian Space Hillbillies kidnapping backwoods hunters like a Sci-Fi version of Deliverance. At a certain point, one has to wonder not only about the motivation for writing it, but your own motivation for reading it. That can be awkward.
Michele wrote: "they seem to think sex is all about the mechanics and they forget sex starts in your head, with your thoughts, emotions, senses."I agree. I think a good author can go into as much or as little detail as they like, so long as they keep the focus on the feelings. Sentences that suggest, rather than describe are probably better. If a couple is curled up in bed and you get a sentence like "she reached down and smiled when he gave a sharp gasp of pleasure" you can probably imagine what she might have done without having to specify the action. And these things probably play out better in the imagination.
But no, and answer to the original question, I don't generally find sex in fiction awkward.
I mostly don't notice bad language in novels. It can sometimes be used to shock, either for plain shock, or for comedy reasons, but mostly it is just there. I like it best when it is used sparingly though. If a character who never swears suddenly lets out a curse, that can be pretty effective.
Some sex scenes can be awkward or down right disgusting. Others, like say, some from the sword of truth series can be very sensual. The scene describing an apple being eaten comes to mind.I agree in some cases that the more left to the imagination can be a good thing. Truly I find it situational though.
As far as when I write a scene it tends to be couched in innuendo. I try to stay away from trite and banal words and phrases and describe the feelings in far greater detail than the actions.
I've never had any problem with sex or profanity in fiction, with one caveat: if I'm listening to an audiobook at work, and a sex scene comes up, I get close to blushing. I mean, I'm wearing headphones, so there's no way anyone else could hear what I'm listening to... but still, it makes me feel like I'm doing something surreptitious and naughty.
I think it's rare for sex scenes in books to be well-written. They're usually clunky and rarely enhance the story. There are a few authors who can do it well, but the majority don't pull it off. I just finished listening to a book that started off really interesting. then, the protagonist "falls in love" with a woman who isn't his wife and eventually has sex with her. The description of the sex was clinical and not titillating at all. Plus, it was a WTF moment because it really had no bearing on the story up until that point and sent the whole thing veering in another direction that wasn't interesting at all.
Michele wrote: "...sex starts in your head, with your thoughts, emotions, senses.......I did try to read Chuck Wendig's Blackbirds and was very annoyed by the cursing. "
I prefer emotion-focused sex. If the sex is extremely graphic and focused on the physical, I feel like a voyeur peeking in on something I have no business seeing. I liked the sex scenes from The Sharing Knife series by Lois McMaster Bujold. The sex in Jacqueline Carey's Terre d'Ange series is right on my line. Especially earlier in the series, the sex scenes are a crucial part of the plot.
As for profanity, it's all about density for me. If every other sentence is cursing, I get put off. I keep finding that I find Chuck Wendig's concepts intriguing, but I just can't take his writing style, particularly his dialogue.
Sean wrote: "Steve wrote: "Absolutely not! Those are all parts of life and other scenarios, so why should I feel awkward, whether reading about it or living it?"So's taking a dump and changing a tampon, yet o..."
That's because those are usually rather inconsequential events, while sex and violence usually have more consequences for characters and plot.
That's because those are usually rather inconsequential events, while sex and violence usually have more consequences for characters and plot. Exactly. Acts of intimacy or brutality have direct impacts on the characters and therefore the plots, actions, relationships, etc.
In terms of intimate scenes, I feel good writers utilize suggestive techniques rather than graphic descriptions and that allows the reader to use their own imagination. That's not to say that some writers can't do a good job being very graphic, but again, it's all in the writing for me.
I think the earlier mention of the Jacqueline Carey series is a good example of intimacy (and other stuff) done very, very well. I primarily like fantasy in the Gemmell style, but the Carey's Khushiel series was exceptional.
When it serves the need of the story, I don't flinch at all. It's certainly a powerful part of the human experience, and when well done certainly adds to the reading experience. But for me as a writer, that's not reason enough to include such material. Like anything else left in at the end of the revision process, it must serve the story. I balk at explicit sex inserted into a story for no better reason than heating things up. Too many author include sex scenes just because they can, and not to move the story forward or tell you something about the characters. It's more of a marketing ploy than a writing style. That doesn't work for me. It feels dishonest.
I've read some actual erotica ( not just something wedged into a story) and have seen the gamut from the childish to the loquacious. There has to be a happy medium. If the interaction is tawdry then make it read more raunchy. If it's about love or at least sharing make the words evoke beauty and longing.
Sex and profanity are part of the human experience. As many have said though, if you want to make it a productive use of pages, you'd have to engage in that dialog. That's what separates it from trashy romance or slasher horror. The gratuity.
I guess the differentiator, for me, is the means vs. the end. Does the sex or violence serve the story? Or is that the goal of the story?
Thanks for the input everyone. Nice to see the ranges in how it affects people as well as the fact that I've probably just been reading people who may be good at writing regular stuff, but not so good at writing sex.As for all those who commented about gratuitous sex/profanity vs contextual sex/profanity, I've definitely fallen on the side of what I think is the majority. Unless you're reading something meant to titillate, it should forward the plot. Never had trouble with contextual of either. And gratuity can work as satire or if it's so over the top. (Pulp Fiction is a good example, in my mind, of taking it over the top so far that it becomes a commentary or satire) In Scalzi's The God Engines, I thought the sex scene made sense. I can't remember if I found it to be one of the awkwardly written ones, but it certainly made sense within the context of the novella.
Use of the phrase "moist vaginal folds" in the middle of a sex scene is the most awkward I've read. "her wetness" is always the less horrible version that is still just icky.
Janet wrote: "Use of the phrase "moist vaginal folds" in the middle of a sex scene is the most awkward I've read. "her wetness" is always the less horrible version that is still just icky."ICK! I think it's really difficult for authors to write a good sex scene because the act isn't about words and body, it's about feelings. It's also extremely personal and private. And, what one person finds erotic, someone else might not.
So what are examples of it done well in genre fiction?
Jacqueline Carey writes sex really well. I've only read Naamah's Kiss and Santa Olivia, but I thought she did a good job in those. I did complain about the latter book because it was pretty graphic with teenage sex. I know teens have sex, but I really don't want to read about it. It was well-written though.
The only graphic sex scenes that I haven't either skimmed through, laughed at, or been disgusted by that I can think of were in Jean Auel's Valley of the Horses and the Mammoth Hunters (2nd and 3rd books in her Earth's Children series), and even by MH the sex scenes get repetitive and the following books are even worse, like she cut and paste the same scene in every 10 chapters or something. And she does use some of that language, "his manhood" and so on, but it's mostly...tastefully done (pun intended ha!) and also a strong part of the plot, at least in those first books.
Oh duh, I forgot all about J. Carey, she's very good and sexy without being over-the-top graphic, as long as you can deal with the sado-masochism.
Michele wrote: "Oh duh, I forgot all about J. Carey, she's very good and sexy without being over-the-top graphic, as long as you can deal with the sado-masochism."She does write about activities that go against my proclivities, but she does it well.
I like the sex scenes that Molly Harper writes. She writes about the funny side of sex. Noses bang against each other, you can't get your underwear off gracefully, you're doing it on the couch and your mom rings the doorbell. It's great because it's real and it's funny. She's got the whole paranormal rom-com down pat.
The latest Dresden Files novel has a very steamy, well-written sex scene in it. I can't say Jim Butcher has done anything quite like that in the earlier books in the series.Glen Duncan's Last Werewolf series has a lot of well-written, but not titillating, sex scenes. It's uncomfortable because of the context, but it fits the books.
Haruki Murakami makes you feel very weird about the sex in his books, but that's the intention.
Tamahome wrote: "So what are examples of it done well in genre fiction?"Good question... preparing to take some notes here.
How about Anne Bishop? I have the massive omnibus edition of the Black Jewels trilogy on my shelf.
About sex scenes: Sometimes, the sex scenes are an expected part of a genre and can tend to get repetitive, so when Nalini Singh's Shield of Winter came out last week I wasn't expecting anything drastically different. Turned out to be hysterically funny (view spoiler). I often like Linda Howard's sex scenes, which tend to have more details about what's going on than a lot of writers, but it's still mostly about the *characters*. As for profanity: I think seeing the word adds weight to it somehow. Tanya Huff's Torin Kerr series is about soldiers (human and other) in a space army who are obviously going to swear a lot, given the kind of job they do; Huff used "fuk" and "fukking" and it didn't bother me at all. If she'd left the "c" in, I think I'd have been a LOT more bothered.
Heck, in real life I was once talking about RTFM and referred to it as "reading the fucking manual" and it sounded sooooo much worse than I expected it to. It's weird how the same words in different contexts have different weight.
The (now sadly defunct) blog "101 Reasons to Stop Writing Now" used to have a great entry on writing sex scenes. To summarize: In an age when live video of any depraved act of copulation you can imagine--and half a dozen you never would--is a 2-second mouse-click away, you really have to wonder if you can bring anything to the party no one's seen before. If your sex scene's impact on the plot or characters can be summed up with "And they did it", don't bother writing it.
I find, just like with action scenes, sex scenes work best when there are actual stakes. Do I care about these characters? Do I care about their relationship? Is their sexual congress a culmination of a narrative arc? Does it reveal anything about their character?
Otherwise, it's just pornography, and that goes for gratuitous action scenes as well. And while there's nothing wrong with written pornography, it's really got to be something special to compete with the live-action variety. If titillation isn't the story's main goal (e.g., it's not erotica), there's not much point.
It depends for me. If the precedent is set from the start then I'm fine. But if there are mainly hints, or if it's just shown once or twice and not too graphically, say in previous books, and I'm invested and then boom, the author drops some really graphic scenes and language etc, I might get turned off, particularly if the focus was on other aspects.Case in point, Anita Blake. Loved the series. Yes, they was sex etc, but it was of a certain tone and the focus on the books were the characters and her growing skills. Then one day it just seemed to be all about orgies, and well, I lost interest.
Nope. I feel because it's a part of real life, if it's in a book, it makes it more real; although of course if it's completely vulgar (which is just purely words used to describe it, not the actual act/s) and/or poorly written then I just won't even try to read it but of course those types of scenes are in specific types of books that I wouldn't read normally.Also, if it's not there, I ain't complaining either.
Wilmar wrote: "The problem with sex scenes is that anything with the words penis, vagina, phallic, or any other medical term, kind of kills the mood for sex. From the examples you've listed, it's no wonder you would find them off putting. Sex scenes are hard to write without sounding awkward or disgusting.I've found that the best written sex scenes usually leave out the body parts altogether or, mention them in passing and let you fill in the blank.
She sank into him.
He pressed upon her.
The bed creaked under their weight.
Their moaning was heard through the walls.
Once you talk about stroking scrotums or whatever, the mood is most certainly killed.
I think Stephen King actually did a nice job with the description of a sex scene in The Shining. "Her breasts tumbled out of her blouse." He never goes into detail about penetration or things like that, he let's you fill in the blank with his descriptions.
In the case of sex scenes, I strongly believe that less is more.
Also, I do agree with you that curse words seem to come out stronger in text. That's why I prefer not to use them in my books because they stand out like a sore thumb.
I prefer to save a curse word for a KO punch when there's going to be a triumphant victory or it's just highly appropriate for the moment. But to just drop it in willy nilly seems pointless UNLESS that kind of language is part of the character.
Just my opinion."
Well said. This for me, too.
Some books could be a bit graphic, but it doesn't bother me or make me feel awkward at all.
Sex scenes make me uncomfortable, perhaps because I was raised in a Christian household where public displays of affection were rare and sex was something you just didn't talk about. I might skip ahead when I come to those parts. Some profanity doesn't bother me, but when it's like every few words or so, it's a turn off.
I think authors should give explicit, play-by-play sexual activity and scenarios a pass. I can't think of a single story I have ever read which would be enhanced or improved by such material. If one wants to write erotica, have at it. But keep it out of straight (so to speak) fiction.
I'm about as far from a prude as one can get and not be featured on Post Office bulletin boards across the land. It's not a morals question for me, but a narrative and aesthetic one.
Serendi wrote: "About sex scenes: Sometimes, the sex scenes are an expected part of a genre and can tend to get repetitive, so when Nalini Singh's Shield of Winter came out last week I wasn't expecting anything dr..."That spoiler's pretty funny. Reminds me of when Whedon wrote Astonishing X-Men and (view spoiler)
Not particularly, though there are times when I fast-forward or flip through one of those scenes (fwiw, the ones in the J. D. Robb *In Death* series usually take about 5 audio minutes). I am much more likely to avoid a book with "lust" in the summary - that usually means too-rough-for-me sex, e.g. the books in the Black Dagger Brotherhood series, or Nalini Singh's books. The occasional profanity doesn't bother me, when used in context.
Let's spell out what we mean by context. If in the narrative the author is dropping F-bombs left and right, that's gratuitous and likely out of context. If a character does so, that's likely in context and helps define the moment or character. Sex scenes to express emotion or a situation between or among characters can be in context (even if it's titillating). The in context uses don't bother me and are often necessary to the story.
As long as in context it is fine. When out of context or badly written then it distracts and can be funny.Part of life.
The other issue with writing a sex scene is it reveals a very intimate view point of the author. It is either a physical description of the act, which sounds superficial. Or it might try to describe a point of view of a character, but that can feel contrived. Finally, it might draw on the author's personal experience and sounds genuine but is incredibly personal.
Most writers do not know how to write an erotic passage so most of it is lame. I like the wink, wink, nudge, nudge method. Still there is a certain pleasure in listening to Roy Dotrice perform Lysa's pleasure from Storm of Sword.
Sometimes less is more. I found the nude scene in 'I Capture the Castle' more arousing than any of the sex scenes GRRM writes.
The Sword and Laser
Authors mentioned in this topic
Lois McMaster Bujold (other topics)Jacqueline Carey (other topics)
Chuck Wendig (other topics)
I haven't read many books with graphic depictions of sex, but recently a lot of quotes from the GoT books were online because of the rape in the church controversy. Also, a few months ago, I was reading excerpts of a book that had graphic depictions of sex and I just found both examples really awkward to read. I don't know if it's the multitude of synonyms used so that the book isn't a repetition of medical terms or one particular term for the parts involves, but it just reads so awkwardly to me. Maybe it's just been parodied so much that I can't read it seriously? Phrases like "she guided him to her sex/loins/whatever" just make my eyes roll and, as I said, feel awkward to read.
Not awkward to read - past tense things like: Character a and character b slept together/made love/had sex/fucked/did the horizontal tango/etc.
Somewhat related, I always find it really weird to read profanity. Don't know why. If someone says "fuck", nothing special registers in my brain. But reading it - it seems more visceral, more profane than when spoken. Anyone else have that feeling?