Paranormal Romance & Urban Fantasy discussion

I've just finished reading yet another book where the heroine lacks any identifiable qualities of a hero (strength, confidence, fortitude, intelligence, even a sense of humor), this particular one is Fallen. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting it to be fine literature - I know what PNR is and I love it - but as the main POV character and the implied pivot point of the series' whole plot I expected a bit something more than this watered-down milk excuse of a character that is Luce Price. To be clear, I devoured the Twilight series in under 3 days and really enjoyed, but it wasn't because I found Bella compelling, interesting, or enviable it was b/c the guys were so awesome and I loved watching them play tug-of-war over her. So many of these PNR books feature females who are undefined except in terms of their love interests. Just b/c they are "normal" humans doesn't mean they have to be insignificant and empty-handed. And dear Lord, why do they usually express something similar to: "But I'm just normal, I'm nothing, a mere human, nothing special, totally inadequate and unworthy. And you're an amazingly fabulous vamp/werewolf/fae/angel underwear model that has put me into super awkward, shy and tormented insta-love with you. Please don't leave me or I will just DIE!"

Where are the women who can go toe-to-toe and hold her own with their male counterparts in this post-Bella Swan world? Please tell me - seriously. Does anyone find these characters (Bella, Luce) appealling and think they have merits that I am obviously missing?

The one and only reason PNR heroines are often blank slates is so that the reader can imagine themselves in the heroine's place. The less noticeable the heroin's character is the easier it is to pretend its really you being romanced by that super hot invariably rich guy.

Thats why, even though the book is often written from the perspective of the heroine and the situations and backgrounds heroines have from book to book are often wildly different, for the most part they all sound and feel like the same person. The less unusual (and therefore less interesting) they are the easier it is for the reader to relate to them.

^^^^^^
That. I think the problem is by far the biggest in paranormal romance, but since new adult has taken off, I'm seeing it there a lot now, too.

When a young adult book becomes popular, it's generally because it has some self-insert Mary Sue "heroine" (*cough*Twilight*cough*). And then I guess the younger readers move onto more grown-up books (*cough*Fifty Shades*cough*) and want more of the same.

There's always urban fantasy, but sometimes I find heroines there go so far the other way they're also impossible to identify with. Patricia Briggs writes some strong, interesting, individual women.

Sonya Heaney wrote: "There's always urban fantasy, but sometimes I find heroines there go so far the other way they're also impossible to identify with. Patricia Briggs writes some strong, interesting, individual women. "

Actually that is one of the reasons I enjoy UF. The heroines are much stronger and more pro-active. I like Patricia Briggs' books but one of my problems with her writing is that she doesn't portray women that well. Other than Mercy, most of the other female characters in the series are all presented in a negative light - jealous, vindictive and petty.

Ilona Andrews Kate Daniels and Jennifer Estep's Elemental Assassins are better when it comes to strong, intelligent and positive female characters.

Lauren wrote: "Sonya Heaney wrote: "There's always urban fantasy, but sometimes I find heroines there go so far the other way they're also impossible to identify with. Patricia Briggs writes some strong, interest..."

Yeah, I suppose they are. I just like both Mercy and Anna because they could *only* be Mercy or Anna. They're not interchangeable with other random PNR heroines.

I don't like the really big, scary violent UF heroines because I can't relate to them. I guess I'd like it if more authors wrote women who were somewhere between Bella from Twilight and Cat from the Night Huntress series - because both extremes frighten me!

But I really don't read that much in either PNR or UF anymore. I went crazy on the genres a few years ago, I've moved on a bit since then.

Sonya Heaney wrote: "Yeah, I suppose they are. I just like both Mercy and Anna because they could *only* be Mercy or Anna. They're not interchangeable with other random PNR heroines."

Yes, they are definitely unique and not interchangeable. I like both of them but Anna has an edge on Mercy I think mainly because she tends to stand up more for herself than Mercy. This was particularly noticeable in Night Broken. I really wish Mercy (view spoiler)[had put Christy in her place sooner AND more forcefully (hide spoiler)]

I guess I'd like it if more authors wrote women who were somewhere between Bella from Twilight and Cat from the Night Huntress series - because both extremes frighten me! - Lol! Yes, Bella is way too weak (only based on the first book because I couldn't get into the others). Cat's OK but it irritates me that every single man in the series has the hots for her. She not ALL that!

But I really don't read that much in either PNR or UF anymore. I went crazy on the genres a few years ago, I've moved on a bit since then. - I only got into PNR/UF a couple of years ago and read quite a lot of them but this year I've gone back to genres that I'd neglected for a while. Its better to have a balance.

I agree with all this, but let me also address the elephant in the room... Fallen just wasn't that great of a series either, lol. Luce could have been the most dynamic heroine ever to grace YA PNR and the book still would have felt cliche, IMO.

Rachel wrote: "I agree with all this, but let me also address the elephant in the room... Fallen just wasn't that great of a series either, lol. Luce could have been the most dynamic heroine ever to grace YA PNR ..."

HAHA! Should that come with a spoiler alert? Point taken.

I really enjoyed the Elemental Assassin Series. Gin (Heroine) is strong and maybe a bit too confident in her abilities but the reader can relate to her situations (outside the assassinations) and maybe thats why I enjoyed the series so much.

Nevada wrote: "Rachel wrote: "I agree with all this, but let me also address the elephant in the room... Fallen just wasn't that great of a series either, lol. Luce could have been the most dynamic heroine ever t..."

Lol, well definitely take that point with a grain of salt. *hangs head and whispers* I still read the whole series. :)

Waffle wrote: "The one and only reason PNR heroines are often blank slates is so that the reader can imagine themselves in the heroine's place. The less noticeable the heroin's character is the easier it is to pretend its really you being romanced by that super hot invariably rich guy."

Maybe that's the crux fo the problem for me. I don't read books this way. When I read a book, it's like watching a movie, or better yet it's like listening to a good friend tell me about her day/life. They are an empathetic experience for me, not a vicarious one. As such, in the same way I would not be friends with someone so undefined I also cannot identify with a character like this.

It does make me curious though, if more readers tend to place themselves in the story, why aren't more romance/PNR written in the second person for an extra sense of immediacy and intimacy?

Nevada wrote: "Where are the women who can go toe-to-toe and hold her own with their male counterparts in this post-Bella Swan world?"

This is exactly why I HATED Kiss of Snow. Not that I've ever read a book where the author managed to make a 19 year-old girl any kind of match for the 30+ man…funny, I never really thought about how Sienna was the same age as Bella at the end of the Twilight books. But they had about the same amount of agency (none) and self-worth (none). I wish it were just a problem with teenaged heroines though, but sadly, it's not.

Nevada wrote: "Maybe that's the crux fo the problem for me. I don't read books this way."

I'm kind of in the middle, because I both read as if someone were telling me their story, and as if I'm in some way the heroine. That said, for me personally, the blank slate thing has never worked; the better developed a character is, the stronger she is, the more likely I am to be partially invested in her as an extension of myself. Then, at the end of the story, when I extract myself, the more likely I am to be happy she ended up with the hero, instead of resisting the urge to write some crazy fan fiction where that heroine dies and he ends up with someone smart and savvy who can not only hold her own against the hero, but can even best him if it comes down to it. Okay, maybe she doesn't have to die. ; )

Nevada Wrote: "It does make me curious though, if more readers tend to place themselves in the story, why aren't more romance/PNR written in the second person for an extra sense of immediacy and intimacy?"

I imagine this is because second person is incredibly difficult to write well; I've only ever seen it done in short stories. But related to this (sort of) the first person format in UF often makes it easier for me to slip into the heroine. Is it because of the "I" focal point, or because these characters tend to be stronger? Or does writing the first person heroine somehow lend itself to stronger characters?

*raises hand and agrees with Josephine about Elemental Assassin, and joins Rachel having read the whole Fallen series.* No shame! ; )

Lauren wrote:Yes, they are definitely unique and not interchangeable. I like both of them but Anna has an edge on Mercy I think mainly because she tends to stand up more for herself than Mercy. This was particularly noticeable in Night Broken. I really wish Mercy
"
@Lauren - Night Broken (view spoiler)[ I had the same feeling while reading this one. I think why she didn't was the fact that most of the pack still doesn't like her. She would have looked like the bad guy for doing that to a 'mere human'. Now if Christy was a wolf I think the book would have made the story much different. I also think her putting her in her place was more subtle - like when she defended Adam to Christy and really the rest of the pack since they could all hear her. (hide spoiler)]

Good question. Is it a trope because it's what readers want and is successful? Or is it successful because there aren't many alternatives for readers?

As for kick ass girls who are my favorites, I like Katniss in the Hunger Games, Lisbeth Salander in Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Buffy as in the Vampire Slayer and Veronica Mars.

And don't discount Anatastia Steele in Fifty Shades. In the first book, she walks away from abuse despite loving the man. By the end of the trilogy, she's grown the self confidence to save her sister-in-law from a kidnapper.

Edit to add: As I look over that list, not many are in the romance genre. WTF? Do girls have to be vapid to be loved? Hmmmm. It'll make me more conscious while I'm plotting and writing.

Dany Rae wrote: "Edit to add: As I look over that list, not many are in the romance genre. WTF? Do girls have to be vapid to be loved? Hmmmm. It'll make me more conscious while I'm plotting and writing.
"

My list of kick-ass females is similar to yours but includes Sarah Connor (Terminator) and Xena Warrior Princess.

As you point out, these two are not in the romance genre either. Sarah Connor is almost asexual after getting knocked up by Kyle Reese - "don't need love here, I'm too busy being kick-ass". Further, (and I may be feminist ranting here) they decide to make Xena lesbian rather than develop a guy that could possibly love such a strong, independent woman. I dislike that in this instance it seemed like Xena's strenght equalled butch which of course had to equal lesbo. I mean, come on, that's not the way it works.

Strong females (who are also feminine and lovable) in literature work. Consider Josephine from Little Women, Elizabeth Bennett from P&P, Rebecca Sharp from Vanity Fair, and even Scarlett from Gone with the Wind. These women kick-ass, maybe they end up getting kicked-in-the-ass in return, but they don't just lay down and snivel about it until some big, strong, much-more-intelligent-than-a-mere-woman, alpha male came along to save her, they do something and stay true to theirself.

Didn't Xena bang Hercules a whole bunch?

Waffle wrote: "Didn't Xena bang Hercules a whole bunch?"

LOL - not really sure, I only watched it sporadically, would it have been Kevin Sorbo's Hercules or some other guy. Kevin Sorbo makes all the difference. :)

Sorbo yeah.

@Melissa - Re: Night Broken (view spoiler)[Yes, I understood why she did it, but the pack is never going to like Mercy no matter what she does so it was a waste of time really.

I did like how she stood up for Adam but I still wanted her to punch Christy in the kisser, lol! (hide spoiler)]

I think there's a large audience for the "But I'm just normal, I'm nothing, a mere human, nothing special, totally inadequate and unworthy. And you're an amazingly fabulous vamp/werewolf/fae/angel underwear model that has put me into super awkward, shy and tormented insta-love with you."

There are so many readers who can relate to that and fall head first into that world. Most of us, I'm sad to say, are not fight 'em till you drop type people in our daily lives, not that we don't love reading those types of heroines. But the fall back is the good ol' insecure nothing of a girl who gets elevated into a fabulous supernatural world and has the undying love of a mega hottie. Who doesn't want to experience that, I ask you?

Interesting observation, Kiersten.

It depends on the type of reader you are. I like to put myself in the character's shoes. Part of the fantasy for me, therefore, is being someone or something I'm not -- and that is a girl who kicks ass and takes names.

Dany Rae wrote: "Interesting observation, Kiersten.

It depends on the type of reader you are. I like to put myself in the character's shoes. Part of the fantasy for me, therefore, is being someone or something I'..."

That's the reason I like a wide variety of characters. For a while there, I was reading nothing but kick ass fems and it started to get a little old. The same goes for the more insecure, less kick-assy heroines. To many in a row and it gets irritating for people, I think.

OK, had to weigh in on this topic as well...

I agree that it seems the 'Mary Sue' character is proliferating, especially in YA and NA, at the moment. It has a time a place, as Waffle said, to allow the reader to essentially imagine themselves in place of the heroine. I will admit, I am a fan of Twilight and 50, but I will also admit I'm getting burned out on so many of these cookie cutter books being pumped out in both the PNR, YA, NA, and contemporary romance genres/categories. I also love me some strong, kick-ass females like Zena (aiiiiieeeee!), Mercy (Mercy Thompson), Cat (Night Huntress), Elena (Women of the Otherworld), Penryn (Angelfall), Karen Murphy (Dresden Files side character)... but I'm dreaming of those good 'mixed' characters. Actually, to me, Dani and Mac (Fever series) are both great mixes, I think. Mac starts all southern and soft and pretty pink painted nails and barbie-like exterior and turns into this badass OOP detector/crusher of unseelie fae... but she's still Mac. She's still that Rainbow Girl deep down. Dani- she's like a 14 year old girl version of Dash from the Incredibles, only maybe on crack or something. She still has those teen naive moments, she's been mislead, has angst seeping out of her pores and still cocky to boot.

I guess, it just boils down to each book individually. I am much more likely to 'swallow' a bland TSTL female character if I am at least engrossed and entertained by the book/story. The books that I tend to re-read over and over, more often have characters that have at least strong moments or some sort of passion or strength or fire.

Re: Fallen... *Sigh* I started the series, and read at least a few books into it. But yeah... I just reached this point where I just didn't care. She could live or die, with me never knowing her fate, and I'm OK with that. I know I'm likely to get my own wrist slapped for this, but I've reached that same feeling with the Mortal Instruments as well. If it had ended with book 3, I would have been happy stopping right there. Just my opinion, but I feel much of the strength Clary gained was being eroded in book #4... and that's where I gave up.

A more 'violent' reaction in the same vein: House of Slut, oops, I mean House of Night series. Slut. Sorry, can't help it, just slips out. Now I'm all for sexual freedom for girls, against slut shaming and such... but I'm sorry. That entire series- had such freakin' promise. Such promise, and then just starting douching the pages with crap and sex and just.... I loathe that series now, and wish I could scrub it from my mind.

Not really sure if I made any kind of point with all this... but there you are.

After reading Kiersten's post, I find myself having to further clarify my position (internally especially) bc she makes some good points. I think my biggest issue isn't that Mary Sue is normal or insecure or in need of saving. I don't expect a normal girl to go up against vamps, or to disregard an attractive werewolfs attentions. My problem is when the only thing the Mary Sue does in the story is receive love. I want to see this character come into her own and stop being so insecure (I'm sure some will always remain, we all have bad days) and stop feeling unworthy whether it means that she realizes her love has the power to humanize him, or she has an amazing ability to hack the internet and find info that saves the day, or that she can get in uber-shape and kick bad vamp ass with a pointy wooden crucifix or just that "hey, I'm normal, nothing "special" but still totally worthy of love for the same reason that a typically evil vamp is worthy of my love". Please pardon the run-on sentence from hell. We all feel insecure some time, we all need saving some time but like Bella said "love has to be a two way street he can't always be the one saving her. She has to save him every once in a while too." Or something like that. Just for the record, I loved the twilight books, devoured them, and was glad when Vamp Bella got to grow up and mature bc before then I didn't really care about her. Everyone has something to offer, it just has to be found, especially in these types of books.

Nevada wrote: "I want to see this character come into her own and stop being so insecure ..."

Love that. I totally agree. There should be some growth in both of the main characters, because they can't really go through all the things that they do without being changed forever in some way.

Nevada wrote: "After reading Kiersten's post, I find myself having to further clarify my position (internally especially) bc she makes some good points. I think my biggest issue isn't that Mary Sue is normal or ..."

Sounds like Bella's character arc happened later in the Twilight series. I may have to give the last few of books a chance. I bailed after the third.

I always assume that readers who say Ana didn't grow in 50 stopped reading at book 1, so I'm totally eating crow. :)

Nevada wrote: "I've just finished reading yet another book where the heroine lacks any identifiable qualities of a hero (strength, confidence, fortitude, intelligence, even a sense of humor), this particular one ..."

I totally agree. Where are the Vasquez's? Where are the Ripley's? Where are the Sarah Conners? Honestly, it is not difficult to write a good kick-ass female heroine, so I don't really see why we don't see more of that.

I freaking love a good heroine, I'm just parched for lack of them.

Personally, I think what is happening is people are trying to create reader avatar characters, where the reader is supposed to insert themselves into the place of the heroine. Kind of the "she doesn't deserve what she has so I'm going to claim it instead" line of thinking.

I think that is a huge mistake. Write a good character and the reader is automatically going to go along for the ride.