The Old Curiosity Club discussion

Hello Fellow-Curiosities,

Now that Dickens has started to unravel some oft he mysteries of Estella’s past, today’s two chapters hold another revelation for Pip and the reader. The novel is approaching its end, and we are in for a lot of surprises since Dickens is tidying matters up.

In Chapter 49, the narrator tells us how he pays Miss Havisham another visit after learning from Jaggers that the old lady wants to see him once more. Again, he comes to his old home town like a thief in the night, not wanting to be seen by anyone and not even thinking of Joe, which is, maybe, excusable this time, considering Pip’s worries about Magwitch and being tailed by Compeyson. This time, there is no Sarah Pocket to open the door for him, but an elderly woman, and he finds Miss Havisham in dire solitude sitting by a dying fire, in a “ragged chair”. He comments that

”[t]here was an air of utter loneliness upon her, that would have moved me to pity though she had wilfully done me a deeper injury than I could charge her with.”

In short, he immediately begins to feel compassion for the lonely woman, who seems unsure whether Pip might not be angry with her, for although she makes a motion as if to touch him, she withdraws her hand before she can complete this motion. Miss Havisham speaks of the favour that Pip asked her to do for Herbert, thereby wanting to prove to him that there is still something human in her heart. After Pip has explained his intentions concerning Herbert to her, she agrees to let him have the money that is needed, writing a note to that effect for Jaggers and asking Pip whether his mind is now more at rest, a question he answers in the affirmative.

She also wants to know if Pip is very unhappy, not even daring to look at him as she puts forth her question, and Pip replies that, indeed, he is far from happy but that his unhappiness has other sources than Miss Havisham’s way of dealing with him. It is very obvious that a sea change has taken place in Miss Havisham, which is mirrored in her constant question, “What have I done?” She tries to find out whether she cannot do anything for Pip himself in order to atone for her former behaviour, and in a very heart-breaking scene she falls down on her knees before young Pip to implore his forgiveness – just after Pip confesses to his own faults, saying

”’[...] There have been sore mistakes; and my life has been a blind and thankless one; and I want forgiveness and direction far too much, to be bitter with you.’”

Nevertheless, she remains kneeling, even lying in front of him until he soothes her and gently puts her back into her chair. He sums up his own thoughts and feelings about the old lady in the following words:

”That she had done a grievous thing in taking an impressionable child to mould into the form that her wild resentment, spurned affection, and wounded pride found vengeance in, I knew full well. But that, in shutting out the light of day, she had shut out infinitely more; that, in seclusion, she had secluded herself from a thousand natural and healing influences; that, her mind, brooding solitary, had grown diseased, as all minds do and must and will that reverse the appointed order of their Maker, I knew equally well. And could I look upon her without compassion, seeing her punishment in the ruin she was, in her profound unfitness for this earth on which she was placed, in the vanity of sorrow which had become a master mania, like the vanity of penitence, the vanity of remorse, the vanity of unworthiness, and other monstrous vanities that have been curses in this world?”

Are these reflections a sign of Pip’s inner change towards a less egocentric personality? Miss Havisham is definitely changed, but the trigger that made this possible is, apparently, not so much her ability to put herself in Pip’s shoes but to see in Pip what she once was - or how would you take her following words?

”’Until you spoke to her the other day, and until I saw in you a looking-glass that showed me that what I once felt myself, I did not know what I had done. […]’”

In her grief and remorse, Miss Havisham also protests that originally, when taking Estella into her house, she had no intentions of making her the tool of her vengeance but she only wanted to save her from misery. Pip uses the opportunity to ascertain whether Estella can really be Molly’s daughter by asking at what age she came to Miss Havisham, and he finds the answer corroborating his assumption. Before he leaves Satis House, he once more takes a walk in the overgrown garden, and once again he fancies seeing Miss Havisham’s body hanging from a beam – a hallucination that makes him go back to see whether the old lady is well. When he enters her room, he finds her the centre of a conflagration – apparently, the ashes of the fire have set her bridal dress aflame ¬–, and he quickly puts out the flames of her dress, saving her life but leaving her a victim of shock. Interestingly, when the doctor arrives, he orders Miss Havisham to be laid unto the very table she had pointed out as the place where her relatives would one day gaze at her dead body.

Chapter 50 sees Pip back in London, where he went directly from Miss Havisham’s place. His hands being badly burnt, he needs help from Herbert in order to treat his wounds, as he cannot afford to let his rowing exercises rest for too much time because otherwise, they could no longer be used as a cover for getting Magwitch out of the country when the time to do so has arrives. When Herbert comes and dresses his wounds, he tells his friend of another talk he had with Magwitch, in which the ex-convict told him the story of his tragic love affair: He married a woman “over the broomstick” but the wife turned out a very jealous woman, and not only did she kill another woman but she also told Magwitch that she had, in a fit of jealousy, destroyed their own child. Actually, there is no proof of the latter being true because the child’s body has never been discovered.

From certain similarities between Magwitch’s story and what he knows about Molly’s crime, Pip comes to the conclusion that Estella is actually Magwitch’s lost daughter. I was not so much surprised at that connection but at how Magwitch always happens to divulge the very bits and pieces of his biography that are needed at a certain moment for Pip and Herbert, as well as the reader, to complete the picture. It all falls into place …

We talk a lot of Pip, and whether he feels remorse and seeks redemption, and now we have to have that same discussion about Miss Havisham. Does anyone else feel somewhat cheated, and cynical about this turn-around?

Are we to believe that this woman who has been manipulating Stella for the better part of two decades with this exact goal in mind suddenly feels compassion for Pip? Are we to believe that seeing Pip rise above his heartbreak was an epiphany for her?Surely in her youth she was aware of other broken-hearted people who got on with life and didn't wallow for years, while spinning webs of twisted revenge.

Honestly, I don't know what scenario I would have preferred, but this all just seemed too easy for me.

The fire itself seems symbolic of Miss. H's epiphany. She's lived in darkness all these years, both literally and figuratively. Now she's finally seen the light, and it isn't pretty. Will she ever come out of the shadows, make peace with her past, and find happiness in the light?

Mary Lou wrote: "We talk a lot of Pip, and whether he feels remorse and seeks redemption, and now we have to have that same discussion about Miss Havisham. Does anyone else feel somewhat cheated, and cynical about ..."

You ask very important questions Mary Lou. As a look at my copy of GE it is clear we are close to the end. Will it be possible for Dickens to conclude the novel so the reader does not feel rushed, cheated or forced to accept what is not possible?

First, I believe that the Havisham - Pip chapter 49 is fully believable. Miss Havisham has come to realize her actions towards the world, as it has been played out through Estella, was wrong. If we consider how Dickens crafts this chapter we see the already established symbols and metaphors being used again, but they are now being twisted and torqued to help focus the reader on change.

If we look at the second paragraph of Chapter 49 we see it repeatedly uses words such as "old", "alone", "candle," and "fire" to set a foundation for what will follow. There is yet another person, an "elderly woman" who is now in charge of opening the gate. The setting is an interesting situation where Miss Havisham and Pip meet without Estella present.

What happens next is certainly dramatic. Money for Herbert. Is this guilt money? Miss Havisham asks for forgiveness. Is this too little too late? Can the fire and the injuries to Miss Havisham and Pip be seen as, in any way, symbolic of a purification of their characters?

When Miss Havisham is placed on the table where she earlier said she would be placed upon her death, is this foreshadowing of only her death, or is it a predictor that all will not be well with Pip, with Magwitch, with Estella and even with Joe.

As readers, through what prism should we look at Pip. I'm on record as liking Pip, and we shall see what happens. Still, it is noteworthy that Pip does not go to see Joe when Pip visits Miss Havisham. Is there some resentment on Pip's part? How can we resolve -is it possible to resolve- the apparent rift between Pip and Joe?

So much to think about ...

"I saw her running at me, shrieking, with a whirl of fire blazing all about her"

Chapter 49

John McLenan

1861

Dickens's Great Expectations,

Harper's Weekly


Text Illustrated:

"The mournfulness of the place and time, and the great terror of this illusion, though it was but momentary, caused me to feel an indescribable awe as I came out between the open wooden gates where I had once wrung my hair after Estella had wrung my heart. Passing on into the front courtyard, I hesitated whether to call the woman to let me out at the locked gate of which she had the key, or first to go upstairs and assure myself that Miss Havisham was as safe and well as I had left her. I took the latter course and went up.

I looked into the room where I had left her, and I saw her seated in the ragged chair upon the hearth close to the fire, with her back towards me. In the moment when I was withdrawing my head to go quietly away, I saw a great flaming light spring up. In the same moment I saw her running at me, shrieking, with a whirl of fire blazing all about her, and soaring at least as many feet above her head as she was high.

I had a double-caped great-coat on, and over my arm another thick coat. That I got them off, closed with her, threw her down, and got them over her; that I dragged the great cloth from the table for the same purpose, and with it dragged down the heap of rottenness in the midst, and all the ugly things that sheltered there; that we were on the ground struggling like desperate enemies, and that the closer I covered her, the more wildly she shrieked and tried to free herself,—that this occurred I knew through the result, but not through anything I felt, or thought, or knew I did. I knew nothing until I knew that we were on the floor by the great table, and that patches of tinder yet alight were floating in the smoky air, which, a moment ago, had been her faded bridal dress."

"I entreated her to rise"

Chapter 49

F. A. Fraser

1877

An illustration for the Household Edition of Dickens's Great Expectations

Text Illustrated:

“My name is on the first leaf. If you can ever write under my name, “I forgive her,” though ever so long after my broken heart is dust pray do it!”

“O Miss Havisham,” said I, “I can do it now. There have been sore mistakes; and my life has been a blind and thankless one; and I want forgiveness and direction far too much, to be bitter with you.”

She turned her face to me for the first time since she had averted it, and, to my amazement, I may even add to my terror, dropped on her knees at my feet; with her folded hands raised to me in the manner in which, when her poor heart was young and fresh and whole, they must often have been raised to heaven from her mother’s side.

To see her with her white hair and her worn face kneeling at my feet gave me a shock through all my frame. I entreated her to rise, and got my arms about her to help her up; but she only pressed that hand of mine which was nearest to her grasp, and hung her head over it and wept. I had never seen her shed a tear before, and, in the hope that the relief might do her good, I bent over her without speaking. She was not kneeling now, but was down upon the ground.

“O!” she cried, despairingly. “What have I done! What have I done!”

Pip Rescues Miss Havisham from the Fire

Harry Furniss

1910

Dickens's Great Expectations, Library Edition

Text Illustrated:

"I looked into the room where I had left her, and I saw her seated in the ragged chair upon the hearth close to the fire, with her back towards me. In the moment when I was withdrawing my head to go quietly away, I saw a great flaming light spring up. In the same moment I saw her running at me, shrieking, with a whirl of fire blazing all about her, and soaring at least as many feet above her head as she was high.

I had a double-caped great-coat on, and over my arm another thick coat. That I got them off, closed with her, threw her down, and got them over her; that I dragged the great cloth from the table for the same purpose, and with it dragged down the heap of rottenness in the midst, and all the ugly things that sheltered there; that we were on the ground struggling like desperate enemies, and that the closer I covered her, the more wildly she shrieked and tried to free herself,—that this occurred I knew through the result, but not through anything I felt, or thought, or knew I did. I knew nothing until I knew that we were on the floor by the great table, and that patches of tinder yet alight were floating in the smoky air, which, a moment ago, had been her faded bridal dress.

Then, I looked round and saw the disturbed beetles and spiders running away over the floor, and the servants coming in with breathless cries at the door. I still held her forcibly down with all my strength, like a prisoner who might escape; and I doubt if I even knew who she was, or why we had struggled, or that she had been in flames, or that the flames were out, until I saw the patches of tinder that had been her garments no longer alight but falling in a black shower around us."

Pip sees Miss Haversham in flames

Chapter 49

Edward Ardizzone

1939

Heritage Edition

Going up in flames, of course, is classically the Phoenix. Is this a symbol that the old Miss Havisham is dead and the new one is born out of her ashes? I forget how early in the chapter this fire takes place; if early, perhaps that's what we are to make of it??

Mary Lou, I like your idea about the fire being a symbol of the destructive effect of realizing the truth on Miss Havisham. After all, the truth often hurts. Unlike you, and like Peter, I actually had no problem taking Miss Havisham's inner change as believable because after all, maybe Pip was one of the few people Miss Havisham had had around her for years, and so she could not learn from the example of other star-crossed or jilted lovers. Having Pip around her for so many years has maybe made her feel some kind of human interest in him, even though at first he was little more than an object of her revenge - and exchangeable, if we remember that her original target was Herbert. All in all, therefore, I thought her seeing herself in Pip as in a mirror quite believable and realistic. I also found it interesting that, according to her words, she did not see Pip in herself, but rather the other way round, i.e. her way of viewing things and of thinking is still very self-centred.

As Peter says, we are reaching the end of the novel, and Dickens is trying to bring the different bits of pieces together. In one of my earlier posts I hinted at my impression that Magwitch tends to talk most about the very things that can be used by Pip and Herbert (and the reader) to find answers to the very questions they are dealing with - e.g. the role that Compeyson played in Miss Havisham's past - and that is definitely a detail that I consider a bit contrived. But since the novel does not have an intrusive and omniscient narrator, this is perhaps the only way Dickens can achieve his aims.

Kim, thank you for the variety of illustrations you provided for this very memorable scene. I do not know which one I find the most efficient one since they all have strong and weak points. McLenan, for instance, as well as Ardizzone, choose the moment when Miss H. runs towards Pip - rather than the later point in time when Pip throws her on the floor in order to extinguish the flames -, which I find more to the point. However, McLenan's use of light and dark at first made it difficult for me to discover what he actually wanted to show because Pip is so dark here that he looks completely scorched, and there seem to be no flames on Miss H. and her dress. Furniss makes the fire come out more clearly, and Miss H. looks really ghastly but there is the problem of his tendency towards spiderish figures. Fraser's scene, in comparison, looks static and wooden to me.

I agree with Tristram. Interesting illustrations but the Fraser was indeed wooden.

I spent a bit of time looking at the Furniss and wondering if there was some sort of symbol, image, representation in the smoke. Couldn't find any. I did find the Furniss a bit unclear. Too many lines, not enough definition. The last few Furniss have been a bit disappointing to me. I think I'm still suffering Hablot Browne withdrawal symptoms.

I spent some time looking at the Furniss just to see what was supposed to be going on in it, if I hadn't read the novel before I would have no idea.

I thought there would be more illustrations of Miss Haversham on fire and there are, I haven't found out who the artists are though.

Kim

Thank you for these last two rather bizarre colour images. The illustrations seem to be careening around everywhere. Everywhere except what I envision to be what the scene should look like.

It is fascinating how artists approach a single point in the novel from so many different perspectives and styles. I wonder how many of the artists spent time considering the earlier illustrators. There is, of course, little need to consult with other versions.

When I saw the first colored image I thought it looked like Pip was attacking her with a broom. The second seemed like Miss Havisham was either rising to Heaven, or burning in the opposite place. Whichever God decided.

Kim wrote: "When I saw the first colored image I thought it looked like Pip was attacking her with a broom. The second seemed like Miss Havisham was either rising to Heaven, or burning in the opposite place. W..."

Perfect analysis. :-))

Peter wrote: "It is fascinating how artists approach a single point in the novel from so many different perspectives and styles. I wonder how many of the artists spent time considering the earlier illustrators. There is, of course, little need to consult with other versions."

If I were an artist, I would probably not consult earlier illustrations for fear of their muddling up my own ideas of how to present a scene, but I would carefully read the novel. Had the illustrator of the first of the two last illustrations done so, he would probably have noticed that Satis House is a very dark place and probably also very much run down. - I like your idea of the broom, Kim. It reminds me of my daughter's drawings: Whenever she proudly presents one of her pieces of art to me, I carefully try to find out in the ensuing conversation what it is she wanted to draw. Imagine the emotional havoc I would cause by saying, "What a wonderful lion you have drawn!" only to find out that actually she drew a sunflower.

Tristram wrote: "Imagine the emotional havoc I would cause by saying, "What a wonderful lion you have drawn!" only to find out that actually she drew a sunflower."

I did that once when my son presented something he had made for me, he was so very proud of it, until he realized I had no idea what it was. When I knew how much I hurt him I tried and tried to convince him how wonderful it was, but I still feel bad about that and over twenty years have passed since then.

Kim, I actually quite like the abstract feel to the colour illustration. The way the wedding dress
blends with the flames is quite striking. It happens to be the only one that is loading on my phone which makes it special. I shall have to look at them on the tablet later. Thank you for your untiring work!

Everyman, I love the Phoenix idea:up from the ashes and all that. There does seem to be quite a redemptive possibility here, although, as you say, Kim, it is unclear where her eternal home will be. I understand what you mean, Mary Lou, when you consider the all-too-convenient about -turn made by our dear Miss Havisham. I do feel though, along with Peter and Tristram, that this is very feasible. In a way our sense of justice demands a suitable period of time for repentance. But then how long? Five minutes, five weeks or five years? If a change of mind can happen at all then I think that we need to accept that it can happen in a heartbeat or not at all. I know that we might demand that 'proper' amends are made where others are in the wrong, but I know that I would be pleading for mercy on my own account.

I did enjoy this section with Dickens at some of his darkest. He does enjoy the odd scuttling beetle and a new line in cobweb décor. Throw in a fetid wedding cake and disgusting wedding gown and I think Dickens would have been smiling all the way to the bank!

Tristram wrote: "Imagine the emotional havoc I would cause by saying, "What a wonderful lion you have drawn!" only to find out that actually she drew a sunflower. ."

I long since learned that the proper approach -- or at least a proper approach -- to a child's drawing is "that's very nice/ beautiful / interesting / similar word. Tell me about it." And they love telling you about it until the cows come home, and then you know what it is and can praise it for being that and can see that that yellow splotch on the bottom is really a pretty fallen petal and not the sunset.

Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Imagine the emotional havoc I would cause by saying, "What a wonderful lion you have drawn!" only to find out that actually she drew a sunflower."

I did that once when my son pres..."

I know how you feel, Kim: It's very bad to make one's own children feel sad or discouraged. That's why I became a teacher, being able to pick on other people's children ;-)

Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Imagine the emotional havoc I would cause by saying, "What a wonderful lion you have drawn!" only to find out that actually she drew a sunflower. ."

I long since learned that the ..."

You don't know my children, Everyman! If you said to them, "Tell me more about it!", they would not only talk until the cows come home but until the dinosaurs had returned to their domestic fold :-)

Tristram wrote: "You don't know my children, Everyman! If you said to them, "Tell me more about it!", they would not only talk until the cows come home but until the dinosaurs had returned to their domestic fold :-) ."

I don't see what the problem is. Most parents are desperate for their children to get off their electronic devices and have an actual conversation with a parent.

Tristram wrote: "As Peter says, we are reaching the end of the novel,"

Thinking of the end of the novel brought to mind another edition of the book. Some of you who are sad as the end of GE is getting close may want to read it and this way you will have Pip for even longer. I haven't read it (nor will I), but I did notice there are one or two small changes in it.




And the back cover says:

Heaven knows, we need never be ashamed of our wolfish cravings. . . .

Bristly, sensitive, and meat-hungry Pip is a robust young whelp, an orphan born under a full moon. Between hunting escaped convicts alongside zombified soldiers, trying not to become one of the hunted himself, and hiding his hairy hands from the supernaturally beautiful and haughty Estella, whose devilish moods keep him chomping at the bit, Pip is sure he will die penniless or a convict like the rest of his commonly uncommon kind.

But then a mysterious benefactor sends him to London for the finest werewolf education money can buy. In the company of other furry young gentlemen, Pip tempers his violent transformations and devours the secrets of his dark world. When he discovers that his beloved Estella is a slayer of supernatural creatures, trained by the corpse-like vampire Miss Havisham, Pip’s desire for her grows stronger than his midnight hunger for rare fresh beef. But can he risk his hide for a truth that will make Estella his forever—or will she drive one last silver stake through his heart?

Ooooohh. Yes please. I want more.

Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "You don't know my children, Everyman! If you said to them, "Tell me more about it!", they would not only talk until the cows come home but until the dinosaurs had returned to their..."

Up to now, we have managed to keep smartphones and stuff like that away from our children. Maybe, that's why I don't know what I should yearn for :-)

Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "As Peter says, we are reaching the end of the novel,"

Thinking of the end of the novel brought to mind another edition of the book. Some of you who are sad as the end of GE is get..."

Oh dear! Being forced to read dubious fan fiction, or exploitation fiction, like that would surely make having a oak stick driven through one's heart the less painful alternative ;-)

Well l for one was totally gripped and entranced by chapter 49. I found it so very sad, with such a broken, pitiful figure. I don't think the short passage of time prevented me from buying into this, because for Miss Havisham, there was no time. It was all the same to her.

"What have I done?" Such simple, powerful words. I want to weep at this chapter, with its character so full of remorse and sorrow.

Yet for all its directness, it is clever and subtle, moving the story forward in an important way. It shows that Pip is gaining in moral stature, feeling true compassion for someone whom a younger Pip may well have resented for allowing him to proceed under a misapprehension, and also for continuing to want to help his friend Herbert in any way he can, even though it means a rather humbling action.

And the thrilling end! I remember when I was very young, watching a black and white TV dramatisation of this, on Sunday teatime. It gave me nightmares, and I woke up screaming night after night! My parents remembered it for years afterwards! I still find it hair raising - but had forgotten that Pip had a sort of premonition, and an hallucination just before it, and also Miss Havisham's prediction about being laid on the table after her death, which also came about.

There's always an inexplicable ghostly or other-worldly dimension with Dickens, isn't there?

Thanks for all the illustrations Kim ... I hope they won't give me nightmares anew! I like the first few, but not the Edward Ardizzone one which looked frivolous to me rather than horrific. And the one which you thought had a broomstick I thought was a crucifix at first glance.

We've mostly discussed chapter 49 here, and I for one think it's the most dramatic chapter so far. It would be hard to know how to top such a chapter, and yet Dickens does, in a way. Although chapter 50. is mostly quiet action, the plot - and the tension - are nicely cranked up with Pip's certainty about Estella's parentage and his revelation of this to Herbert. It keeps the drama and the tension going, and he resists his usual tendency to slip in a few absurd and whimsical cameos as light relief.

Jean wrote: "We've mostly discussed chapter 49 here, and I for one think it's the most dramatic chapter so far. It would be hard to know how to top such a chapter, and yet Dickens does, in a way. Although chapt..."

I've put my seat belt on for the finish. I'm sure it will something grand ... and perhaps shocking.

Hilary wrote: "Kim, I actually quite like the abstract feel to the colour illustration. The way the wedding dress
blends with the flames is quite striking. It happens to be the only one that is loading on my phon..."

Hilary, I like the color illustration too, for the same reason...the way the wedding dress blends into flames. It's as if the stuckness-in-time is disappearing.

I also like your comment about time itself, whether five minutes or five years, it doesn't matter. For me, this putting aside of our usual sense of time makes it possible to accept the change in Miss Havisham. I don't question it. I don't analyze it much either.

I am struck by the last amazing image in chapter 49...Miss H in white (cotton wool and bed sheet)- the phantom bride- and Pip, the boy she groomed -the phantom groom? - his lips pressed to hers.