The Sword and Laser discussion

Hey guys, I just wanted to let you all know I am about to Lem my first ever book, and I am feeling kind of shamed and actually gutted. I am 50% through nine fox gambit. And I just can't get into it. The whole concept behind the warfare seems really cool, but i just don't get it, if there was a chapter at the start or something that gave some sort of overview of how the whole universe worked then maybe I would get it.
I am also struggling to enjoy the characters, jedao has some character but I feel one character isn't really enough to keep me going.
Is it worth me plugging on or should I just accept it and move on?

Can you be more specific than "whole universe?" Is it the caste society, or the calendrical/ritual magic system that you're struggling with? Not sure there's any hope if you just don't like the characters, although i will say the back half of the book is heavy on Jedao.

In fine with the caste society, I actually really like the way there are there traits within the factions. It's the calendrical system and the way it revolves around symbols and formations. I would just love to feel like I understood it a little. The writing is brilliant, but in the battle scenes I just feel like I am reading it but not being a part of it. Just can't get into it at all.

Too many books, so little time. I've given up on feeling bad about giving up on books, and just move on to something I do enjoy. The only time it makes me cranky is if I've paid for the book (either buying it for myself, or paying my library's inter-library loan fee).

The DNF/Lem/Throw Across the Room moment is a rite of passage for every book lover.

Embrace it. Lean into it. Let it free you.

^ Blue Mars, which ends with a lot of plot points unresolved, and Robinson thinking he's Dickens, ending with "On Mars, on Mars, on Mars." Flung across the room and I now have a permanent distaste for Robinson.

^I'm impressed you made it to Blue Mars. Took me almost two years to finish Red Mars, after initially Lemming it.

Thanks for all the confirmation that I'm not a complete failure. Haha. It's not a throw the book at the wall..... It's been more of a slowly put it down and walk away while fantasising about what else I could be reading...... Just bought thrawn..... And I cant wait to get over nine fox and move on with my reading life.

Trike wrote: "The DNF/Lem/Throw Across the Room moment is a rite of passage for every book lover.

Embrace it. Lean into it. Let it free you."

Now that I read exclusively on my iPad, I've given up the "throwing across the room" lemming ritual. That could be expensive ;-)

I just "Remove From Device" in disgust.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Trike wrote: "The DNF/Lem/Throw Across the Room moment is a rite of passage for every book lover.

Embrace it. Lean into it. Let it free you."

Now that I read exclusively on my iPad, I've given up..."

Yes, I now "delete" from my Kindle with Extreme Prejudice...but that lacks the satisfying "thunk!" of tossing a book across the room.

Michele wrote: "Yes, I now "delete" from my Kindle with Extreme Prejudice...but that lacks the satisfying "thunk!" of tossing a book across the room."

Maybe keep a paperback book you don't like near to wherever you read so you can throw it, honorifically?

Elizabeth wrote: "Too many books, so little time. I've given up on feeling bad about giving up on books, and just move on to something I do enjoy."

This.

Trike wrote: "The DNF/Lem/Throw Across the Room moment is a rite of passage for every book lover.

Embrace it. Lean into it. Let it free you"

This too.

If you took a bite of a new food and found it too bitter or too sour, you wouldn't eat the rest of it would you? Spit it out and order a pizza. It's the same with books; not everything is going to be to your taste. There's no need to ever feel guilty for not liking a book. Move on to the next one.

Callum wrote: "The writing is brilliant "
Callum wrote: "but in the battle scenes I just feel like I am reading it but not being a part of it. Just can't get into it at all. "

These 2 things sound mutually exclusive to me.

I wouldn't say so. I can appreciate the writing and complexity behind it. Understanding why it has won so may awards and accolades.
But personally despite this I don't feel like I am following it all entirely and not getting into the book as a whole, where the magic system confuses me, and personally I didn't like the characters.

Abit like going to an art gallery, and appreciating the work and what there is behind it all...... But not actually enjoying the art visually.

Very pleased I moved on..... Almost finished thrawn and it's brilliant.

Callum wrote: "Abit like going to an art gallery, and appreciating the work and what there is behind it all...... But not actually enjoying the art visually."

That sounds like pity.

Darren wrote: "That sounds like pity."

You've never watched one of the top 100 movies or listened to a famous composer and thought "wow, this is technically fascinating and yet it does nothing for me?" The Abyss was like that for me. I saw why everyone found it so impressive, but I was bored to tears the entire time.

I actually think I pulled out a book part way through. I certainly feel no pity for James Cameron. He has my respect, just not my fandom.

Allison wrote: "You've never watched one of the top 100 movies or listened to a famous composer and thought "wow, this is technically fascinating and yet it does nothing for me?"."

No, because if I found something technically fascinating, then I would find it fascinating, technically. This is a long way from doing nothing for me.

Allison wrote: "I actually think I pulled out a book part way through. I certainly feel no pity for James Cameron. He has my respect, just not my fandom.
."

That is not respect as I understand it. Nor as any dictionary I have ever read would define it. I'm quite sure if you were telling me this in person and I pulled out a book halfway through and started reading, the very last word you would use to describe how you felt is respected.

Err...well, sure. If I did that one on one that would be very rude. I would dearly love to find a dictionary that defined social behaviors, though I believe that's called etiquette, and etiquette distinguishes between one on one interactions and viewing a movie in your own home :-) I don't think James Cameron felt disrespected. I paid money that allows him to claim his success for his works, and saw the cool parts of his story even if they didn't engage me. It certainly isn't pity, and I don't think it's rude to say an art form was well crafted but not to my personal tastes.

I do know there are people who are able to find true enjoyment in things that exhibit any source of interest to them, and you may be one of those lucky people! But I understand what Callum is saying, I think. It is like a food or wine tasting or something. I might be able to taste all the elements the sommelier mentions, and appreciate the subtleties and finish of the wine I'm tasting etc., but if it's oaky and I don't like oaky wines, I still won't like it. It wouldn't be disrespectful not to finish it, it is just not for me. That's okay. People can have preferences, even ones that change part of the way through!

On Ninefox in particular - it's a book that drops you straight into the world and you don't get any explanation. On the one hand, that heightens the alienness of the setting. On the other, you have to have a certain acceptance over and above the basic suspension of disbelief to simply ride a book like that out. If you don't like that kind of thing, yeah, not a book for you. On the other hand, if you generally do, it could be a 'not in the mood' thing in which case I'd try picking it up later. Personally, I loved the book but can certainly understand the 'wtf is all this' reaction and how that could distance a reader.

You guys are doing a solid job of convincing me that I need to read this Ninefox Gambit.

Ninefox Gambit is a good book. Weaponized feng shui times a billion at a galactic scale!

Brendan wrote: "Ninefox Gambit is a good book. Weaponized feng shui times a billion at a galactic scale!"

Math as a contigious belief system that can alter the laws of physics....if you find Ninefox Gambit too simple, you can try All of an Instant which does a similar thing with time

I'm afraid my reason for putting this book down was much more mundane: I didn't like the writing at a syntax level. Just now I tried looking it up on my kindle to find an example, but I must have deleted it, oops. Kinda regret that because a lot of people seem to like it and I wanted to try looking through it again to figure out why.

Darren I can see where you are coming from, however what you are trying to say is that opinions can't be subjective based but must be objective based. Just because something is technically or even factually beautiful or good, does not make it subjectively brilliant. That doesn't take into consideration the viewer. I'll give you an example from another pit of view as we were taking movies.
I absolutely loved prometheus, I know it was flawed as a film, but I loved the whole world building and cinematography. I thought it was stunning and just enjoyed watching it play out.
You can appreciate the technical detail and mastery behind a piece of writing but not actually enjoy the piece.
An extreme example would be Hitler was an incredible public speaker and speech writer, however I didn't agree with what he was saying.

Rick has summed up my problem perfectly, you are thrown into the book and expected to juts enjoy the ride, whereas when I read I like to get completely engrossed in the story, the world and the characters, it because of that I only read one book at a time, as I get completely invested in it. I often find I read pages two or three times to make sure I got all the nuances.
This is something I find with all areas of my life, when it comes to doing any design work u don't like just looking up a you tube to see how to do the design effect I like to completely understand the program and tools I am using. Probably why I get so frustrated with photoshop as so much is about finding your own way, or when gaming I have to explore every option every corner or each map and every possible skill or character trait.

You definately should give it a go J, I wasn't trying to put people off, part of the reason I posted was because I can see why people love to book, but just felt I had to put it down as I couldn't go on.

Callum wrote: "An extreme example would be Hitler was an incredible public speaker and speech writer, however I didn't agree with what he was saying. "

...and that was when everyone realized Callum had driven his point into the ground and buried it while it was begging for its life.

Haha, too right trike..... Maybe abit extreme..... But I thought I may as well go mad with the point. Don't take it too much at face value. Was just thinking of more and more points. Went on abit if a rant. Haha

^ And yet, imagery from "Triumph of the Will" found its way into Rogue One. I was amazed at how blatant they were.

Callum wrote: "Darren I can see where you are coming from, however what you are trying to say is that opinions can't be subjective based but must be objective based. Just because something is technically or even ..."

I'm not saying that at all. I don't see how anything I wrote above could be interpreted as me talking about that. I'm talking about saying what you mean.

Even ignoring the tendency for hyperbolic cliche, one can not be both "bored to tears" and "technically fascinat[ed]" by something.

Words have meaning.

Calm down Darren.... I do understand words have meaning. Maybe I was being abit hyperbolic in what I said.
I wasn't trying to have a go, I was simply saying that if 'everyone' appreciated everything for the technical mastery behind it, and their opinions were based on that it removes subjective opinion.
Personally I could tell that the book was well written, but despite that knowledge it just didn't work for me.

Didn't realise this post was going to delve into the depths of the psyche and even political matters like Hitler.... And more importantly star wars. Granted it was me that said many of them. Haha.

I do like the link to star wars there..... Bringing it back to my replacement book of thrawn.

Allison wrote: "Err...well, sure. If I did that one on one that would be very rude. I would dearly love to find a dictionary that defined social behaviors, though I believe that's called etiquette, and etiquette distinguishes between one on one interactions and viewing a movie in your own home :-) I don't think James Cameron felt disrespected."

Quit moving the goalposts. The point is that he wouldn't feel "respected", either.

Darren must be a Kel because he's definitely got his squad in an attack formation here.

I want goodreads to implement a like button.....despite my clear lack of Kel tactics.... I got that one. Well played brendan

God, will you two just get it over with and kiss already?!

There has been plenty of books I have Lemmed only because I was not in the mood for that particular type of story. I have tried Too Like the Lightning twice and put it down, but still plan to read it.

Sorry I started this trike......i just wanted a little confirmation it was ok to lem the book as I felt slightly ashamed. I'm very happy with my decision now.

Brendan wrote: "Darren must be a Kel because he's definitely got his squad in an attack formation here."

Is this opposite day? I'm being told to calm down by a guy invoking Hitler's oratory powers, and I'm the one on attack?

Wow you really are worked up.... I was having a little joke at the hyperbolic nature of the conversation. I wasn't trying to offend you there. Jeez. I also said I disagreed with Hitler. Haha

Callum wrote: "Wow you really are worked up.... I was having a little joke at the hyperbolic nature of the conversation. I wasn't trying to offend you there. Jeez. I also said I disagreed with Hitler. Haha"

I think you're projecting or something.

I think if you look at who the community is asking to calm down you would maybe stop commenting. Take a. Look at the context here.

Callum wrote: "I think if you look at who the community is asking to calm down you would maybe stop commenting. Take a. Look at the context here."

The community being you? Now you're telling me to shut up? Yeah, you're not worked up or overreacting at all...

Mate trike, Brendan and Allison have all asked you to calm down too.

I'm sorry you got worked up, but can we leave it at this.

I was just trying to have a discussion about lemming a book you know is supposed to be good, but your not enjoying.

Again sorry it went so far, not just to you but everyone else that has added good insightful posts to this thread.

And I appreciated your feedback too, I think differing opinions and discussion just got a little out of hand.

Callum wrote: "Mate trike, Brendan and Allison have all asked you to calm down too."

I would happily stop responding if you stopped saying untrue things. Like I said, I think you're projecting, because this is honestly humourous to me. Look at my posts. Which one of them is really "worked up"?

"That sounds like pity."?

Pointing out boredom and fascination are unlikely to occur in tandem?

Fiery words.

You on the other hand, repeatedly tell me to "calm down", put forth arguments in my name I never issued, then tell me to stop posting. And now you're trying to create this mob against me sentiment... It's all a bit ridiculous. If one of us is worked up here, it's you.

Believe what you want mate, I won't be posting regarding any of your comments again.

Okay.

Now you got me all intrigued by Ninefox Gambit. As if I needed any more books that I want to read. (Yes, I'm looking at you 700+ reading samples on my Kindle.)

Throw across the room...

My most infuriating book experience had me tearing the book into itty little pieces.

I was brought up to respect books (not allowed to turn the corner or mistreat them in any way. I now cannot remember the title, just that the author drowned a young boy on the last pages after telling a heart warming story about him in the rest of the book... Bastard... Physical violence on the book was all I could do.

I threw Assassin's Quest across the room when I finished it. I loved Robin Hobb's writing but I hated the story. I appreciated her skill but didn't enjoy the book one bit.

I'm all about lemming books. Life is too short to spend your time reading something you're not enjoying.

I think the weakness of e-books is most obvious when it's time to throw, rip, or burn books. Angrily deleting it from the device is not nearly as satisfying.

Allison wrote: "I think the weakness of e-books is most obvious when it's time to throw, rip, or burn books. Angrily deleting it from the device is not nearly as satisfying."

It really isn't so I give them the eternal shame of living in my "Lemmed" collection.

Allison wrote: "I think the weakness of e-books is most obvious when it's time to throw, rip, or burn books. Angrily deleting it from the device is not nearly as satisfying."

I feel bad for younger folks who will never know the satisfaction of throwing a book or angrily ending a call by slamming the phone down.

Since we can no longer take out our frustrations on our devices, we have to start wars.