Retro Reads discussion

"In the dusk of St. John's Day, June 14, 1371, three portly middle-aged men enjoyed the freshening air in the cloisters of the Abbey of St. Andrew at Bordeaux...."

I'm in Bordeaux now, and it looks like the change of scene is going to make things very interesting.
I'm loving Katherine's determination to be faithful, and her treatment of Hugh - difficult, angry, ill Hugh- is admirable.

I was so impressed with that as well, Karlyne. Katherine has matured tremendously.

It's one thing to do your duty, but it's a completely other thing to do it in a cheerful, loving way with empathy and sympathy, both.

I keep thinking how convoluted these royals' lives are, even down to our day. So... weird!

Karlyne wrote: "
I'm loving Katherine's determination to be faithful, and her treatment of Hugh - difficult, angr..."

In that respect, I thought Katherine was so honourable. I really feel she should be commended for how she stayed faithful to Hugh - even if she celebrated when she didn't have to do the deed! Justifying cheating would have still been cheating, and I really loved her dedication to her marriage vows.

Karlyne wrote: "I keep thinking how convoluted these royals' lives are, even down to our day. So... weird!"

Oh my God, it's bizarre. Everything about their lives is weird to me!

I've never had princess envy. It sounds like a horrible life to me!

For 21st century 'royals' the negatives might outweigh the positives--though there are always a few who get addicted to power and money. But in the 14th century there was a massive survival advantage.

As Katherine realizes! And she sees the differences between Kettlethorpe and Lancaster's holdings and the advantages to her children, but it comes with a price.

Yes, totally, Karlyne! Phillipa is practical (though not really knowledgeable the way well-connected parent might have been). She pushes Katherine into marriage with Hugh but that was just a first step up on the ladder. I don't have any sense that Katherine is 'in it for the money' but she does recognize the advantages her royal connections bring.

I'm enjoying still how vivid Seton makes this & how she conveys how important religion was in medieval life. From memory Seton was Catholic herself.
Really enjoyed this part but John of Gaunt (view spoiler)[ claiming Katherine so quickly - oh my (hide spoiler)]

In one of Georgette Heyer's bios (I think it was the Kloester one), it's mentioned that not understanding the role religion played in the lives of her historical characters was her big downfall. Seton makes it much more real and understandable. (She is, however, not as funny and witty!)

Karlyne wrote: "In one of Georgette Heyer's bios (I think it was the Kloester one), it's mentioned that not understanding the role religion played in the lives of her historical characters was her big downfall. Se..."

Seton does a better job generally of making her medieval characters breathe.

Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "In one of Georgette Heyer's bios (I think it was the Kloester one), it's mentioned that not understanding the role religion played in the lives of her historical characters was her ..."

It's very hard to make long-gone characters breathe! Austen, my favorite wit, was, after all, writing contemporarily, so she doesn't count. I think Shakespeare's label of "genius" was in part because of his ability to make his audience laugh in the middle of historical tragedy. Most authors feel the weight of history too much, I think.

I really don't think much of John propositioning Katherine when his dead wife is hardly cold (yes I know this hackneyed!)

I don't think John loved Blanche, but she was a good woman and brought him possibly more wealth than his brothers have. At any rate, Blanche brought him unimaginable wealth and power.

Do I think he should live in mourning for the rest of his life? No. But his efforts to start up with Katherine so soon after his good wife died was too soon for me and distasteful. John is a very selfish and self-absorbed man.

I don't think that K and J spent enough time together to be believably in love. I don't feel any connection of substance here. I think as a reader I have to rely heavily on the knowledge that KSwynford and John Lancaster really did exist and were not fictional.

Anya Seton wasn't successful in bolstering my belief in a real love connection here.

I don't think he loved Blanche because he made overtures to Katherine very soon after she died.

Hana,

I think AS created such a good impression for me as a reader that Blanche was a kind and good woman, to say nothing of how much Katherine loved and admired her.

I guess I wasn't "ready" for John to make the transition to fixing his interest with Katherine when he did. Also even worse, he had to know how Katherine loved his duchess. Very distasteful making pass so soon at Katherine when she loved the duchess as she did.

I did not think John should stay in mourning for the rest of his life. It was just too soon for me

It sure did seem sudden to me as well, although there is historical evidence for the timing of their French 'honeymoon'. I've forgotten where I saw that...