Retro Reads discussion

Forth, pilgrim, forth! Forth beast out of thy stall!
Know thy country, look up, thank God for all;
Hold the highway, and let thy soul thee lead;
And truth thee shall deliver, it is no dread.

Well, I buzzed through Part Four and most of Part Five today, and I think I've got a surfeit of violence and trauma. I may go look for some Wodehouse...

I'm at the end of Part 5, and I have to say that Katherine's meeting with Dame Julian has me in tears. Such a beautiful conversation.

And this last chapter is so far my favorite. It's so peaceful and loving and hopeful!

Yes! I thought it was just beautiful. The whole pilgrimage, her contrition and then the 'chance' meeting with Father Clement and the way Dame Julian quietly leads her back into the light is great.

Seton really gets the mix of earthiness and real spirituality that was, I think, very much part of the Middle Ages. I had the same sense when I was reading Chaucer's Canterbury Tales a couple of years back. Or think about the gargoyles on cathedrals with people mooning passers-by! We have nothing like it now.

I'm sure that people have always tried to keep spirituality and physicality in separate boxes, but, you're right that we seem to have taken it to a new level, and I don't think that's a good thing.

I've read a bit of Dame Julian, because Elizabeth Goudge did, and she seemed so... sane! And Father Clement reminded me instantly of a composite of several of Goudge's monks. It all felt so right!

Oh, and I haven't read The Canterbury Tales in decades and decades, so I'm going to have to find them while this story is fresh in my mind!

Dame Julian left writings?! Do you have a link? The Elizabeth Goudge connection feels right to me as well.

Hana wrote: "Dame Julian left writings?! Do you have a link? The Elizabeth Goudge connection feels right to me as well."

Goudge quotes her in a couple of her devotional books - which, of course, aren't by me! She also quotes Teresa of Avila, another of my favorites, although I found The Interior Castle a bit above me (not really a pun intended).

I just looked on Wiki (by the way, have you read "My Grandmother Told Me to Tell You She's Sorry"? I'm in the midst of it, and the Wiki reference reminds me of it), and apparently Dame Julian was the first woman published (or printed) writer in English. And, yes, there are still works available! Well, how cool is that!

Dame Julian has here own Goodreads page: Julian of Norwich! From the quotes it seems as if Seton took much of the dialog in that chapter from Julian's actual writings.

I would never have thought to check Goodreads. But I will now!

I have not read the posts above as I have not completed this section.

I just finished ch 23.

Have any of you noticed that when ever anyone mentions Katherine's relationship with John in a negative way, (whether it's the Friar or her own daughter (Blanchette) calling her a whore and her half-siblings bastards), K always outragedly asserts that "she loves the Duke" or that the two of them love each other as if their feeling for each other is its own excuse justification for immorality and people who challenge her on this, should "understand" because they are in love? she and John are in love?

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I have not read the posts above as I have not completed this section.

I just finished ch 23.

Have any of you noticed that when ever anyone mentions Katherine's relationship with John in a negativ..."

Yep, it bothered me, too! I can't remember where chapter 23 is, so I won't say anymore.

Karlyne wrote: ".Yep, it bothered me, too! I can't remember where chapter 23 is, so I won't say anymore. ."

Just imagine Katherine as a person of our time saying, "Duh, we love each other," Whenever anyone calls it what it is or a spade a spade

Our age is much more apt to justify everything by saying "I deserve to be happy." Theirs was much more motivated by duty, I think, so as long as that was taken care of everything was fine. Interestingly enough, both view points resulted in the same behavior.

Have just finished Part 5 & feel like I have been put through an emotional wringer with everything Katherine goes through. & so brutal - oh my word!

Brutal is exactly it! And to add to it is how she felt so responsible for it all. So much anguish.

Karlyne wrote: "Our age is much more apt to justify everything by saying "I deserve to be happy." Theirs was much more motivated by duty, I think, so as long as that was taken care of everything was fine. Interest..."

I've finished this section.

I agree with your observation about the "I deserve to be happy" of our time versus duty of John and Katherine's time period.

John is a very selfish man.

John complains to Chaucer that all K mentioned in her letter as notice to end their relations is Blanchette and responds that Katherine has other children (his). Chaucer tells John the other children do not have a need and that Katherine fears Blanchette is dead, John responds "I have a need" --very selfish.

John is a very focused, even a narrow minded man. I think he's shocked at his need for Katherine. She was never a part of his master plan for his life, and she bewildered him on the one hand - and infuriated him on the other.

Karlyne wrote: "John is a very focused, even a narrow minded man. I think he's shocked at his need for Katherine. She was never a part of his master plan for his life, and she bewildered him on the one hand - and ..."

What you've said here can be an explaination why he said such awful things about her.

He felt betrayed, and I think he just couldn't stand the thought that he wasn't first in her life (whether or not it was true, he still felt that it was).

Yes, he most likely felt betrayed and perhaps embarrassed bec he was so open about their relationship--who could hide 4 children?

Also to add insult to injury, he was dumped by a nobody. I think his pride was lashing it's tail.

It's the old "Well, if you don't want me, I don't want you, either!" syndrome.

Karlyne wrote: "It's the old "Well, if you don't want me, I don't want you, either!" syndrome."

This is a reaction that some people have when their partner etc initiates an end to the relationship.

John comes across as more harsh than "normal" because he's so powerful/wealthy/a prince and Katherine is pretty vulnerable because she's a woman and the playing field between her and John is not level (birth, wealth, connections etc). She's pretty defenseless. Now that she's a former mistress, she can be considered as a potential mistress to other men and recieve unwanted attention.